SBC condemns alt-right

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SBC condemns alt-right

Postby Haruo » Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:22 pm

The Convention made headlines today overwhelmingly passing a motion to distance itself from alt-right white supremacism. The delay and other details of McKissic's victory are covered in this Washington Post story.
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Re: SBC condemns alt-right

Postby Sandy » Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:25 pm

That's an excellent article from the Washington Post. It's hard to imagine how such a liberal rag like the post would get all the facts right and fairly present them in an article about the Southern Baptist Convention. Imagine that! :wink:

Condemning the alt-right is a slam against Trump. So it's not surprising that Dr. McKissic's initial resolution, which can be found on his blog in its original wording, wasn't initially supported and passed. Give them credit, it took some prompting, but they got a less strongly worded resolution passed. The Post article gave the credit for that to the "younger" messengers, and those of color. Well, that's news, if that's the case. Turnout these days is nothing like it was in the stormy days of the 80's. Looks like about 5,000 messengers. It doesn't take the kind of mobilization that it once did to bring about a change.
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Re: SBC condemns alt-right

Postby William Thornton » Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:29 pm

The wapo article by Sarah Pulliam Bailey is pretty thorough. The resolutions process for the SBC can be confusing and in this case the folks on the committee were tone deaf to the matter but corrected themselves quickly and thoroughly.
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Re: SBC condemns alt-right

Postby Rvaughn » Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:59 am

Is it likely that the resolutions committee may wish to tone down resolutions that are likely to stir up controversy on the floor (and maybe back home in the churches)? I was at a state association once (MBAT, not SBC) when a resolution was tabled and the messengers even voted to not mention it in the minutes!
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Re: SBC condemns alt-right

Postby Haruo » Thu Jun 15, 2017 12:25 pm

Do you recall the topic?
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" All Hell Broke Loose"

Postby Stephen Fox » Thu Jun 15, 2017 2:32 pm

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... cy/530244/

I hear a Jack Jenkins who I do not know is doing a backstory piece on all this. Look for it.

The Bama connection is strong with Cliff Simms, Baptist preacher's son, creator of Yellowhammer News, now in Trump White House with Steve Bannon. Keep an eye on Crawford Broadcasting WYDE of Bham especially the news hour. Listen online. They didn't seem to want to discuss it today, though Rick Burgess of syndicated Rick and Bubba chatted about it. I only listed to about 20 minutes of his three hour plus morning show.
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"The Curse of Ham"

Postby Stephen Fox » Thu Jun 15, 2017 2:37 pm

https://thinkprogress.org/the-southern- ... 5b6f9e80b4

Richard Spencer came into play. A black woman was in tears.

I was hoping the Jack Jenkins piece would be framed in the easily googled Forbes, Republicans Pastors Piece, but interesting even so.

I imagine Randall Balmer and Molly Worthen will weigh in soon.

SBC Plodder William Thornton was there on the ground and we have to believe he will blog soon and you can always count on me

:brick: :brick: :brick: :lol: :gavel: :D :D
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I beat Thornton with definitive Blog

Postby Stephen Fox » Thu Jun 15, 2017 5:41 pm

He may have more style, but I got the best link and substance.

Waitin on you Willie Tee

Ive already shared my link to FBC Gardendale Alabama

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Jay Strack supports Moore in June 9 WSJ piece

Postby Stephen Fox » Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:24 pm

https://www.wsj.com/articles/russell-mo ... 1497022212

Fascinating profile of MOore before the June 13 and 14 frenzy.

What is missing in these Moore profiles is honest look at the racist cabal of Pressler, Helms, Bircher Albert Lee Smith, and Ed Mcateer without whom Moore would not have this platform from which to fall
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Re: SBC condemns alt-right

Postby Rvaughn » Thu Jun 15, 2017 9:22 pm

Haruo wrote:Do you recall the topic?
Yes, I do. I personally thought the majority was wrong to cover up the transaction from the churches, even if they were right to kill the resolution. Since they wanted it buried in oblivion I guess I'll honor that for now -- until I get old and write my memoirs! :wink:
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Re: Jay Strack supports Moore in June 9 WSJ piece

Postby Sandy » Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:19 pm

Stephen Fox wrote:https://www.wsj.com/articles/russell-moore-baptist-leader-who-shunned-trump-splits-his-church-1497022212

Fascinating profile of MOore before the June 13 and 14 frenzy.

What is missing in these Moore profiles is honest look at the racist cabal of Pressler, Helms, Bircher Albert Lee Smith, and Ed Mcateer without whom Moore would not have this platform from which to fall


It would have been nice to read it. It requires a subscription.

Nevertheless, you've made it clear why you don't like Russell Moore. Be that as it may, Moore's principled stance is consistent with the longstanding, but recently abandoned, position of evangelicals, including Southern Baptists, regarding the value of the character of political candidates. He's one of the few among the "religious right" who hasn't abandoned Biblical values and principles to support Trump. To dismiss that on mere speculation about your alleged "racist cabal" of thirty years ago, and your resentment of Moore's position is missing the point. Moore gets it right, and so far, seems to be consistently displaying the kind of courage it takes to continue to give more than mere lip service to Biblical principles and values long held by conservatives, but completely abandoned in their rush to support Trump. Southern Baptists have not been averse to using the livelihood of their employees to bend their opinion to their will, and to silence anything they don't want to hear. As far as I'm concerned, as long as Moore maintains his lack of support for Trump, his credibility soars.
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Re: SBC condemns alt-right

Postby JE Pettibone » Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:30 pm

Ed: Sandy, I have stated on these boards that Moore seems to have matured a good bit since I first encountered him at SBTS while Trudy was doing her M.Div.and then at a few CBF Assemblies and the first national Mainstream meeting where I introduced him to Flick. Having been in those meetings and reading his reports in Baptist Press which where deliberate hatchet jobs, I am not persuaded that increased maturity translates into "credibility".
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Re: SBC condemns alt-right

Postby Sandy » Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:45 am

Both Moore and the SBC have moved far down the road from where they were during the years of controversy. I don't remember reading the articles he wrote, but given the differences in perspective and how all of that played out, I'm sure that "hatchet job" has a particular perspective. Moore is a political conservative, and he is the head of the closest agency the SBC has to lobbying. He's one of very few Evangelical Conservatives who recognizes that support for Trump requires abandonment not only of everything the Christian political right has claimed to stand for over the past forty or so years it has been this involved in politics, but also of the core principles of Christian faith itself. So far, he's stood his ground, and hasn't bowed to the typical SBC way of squelching dissent or disagreement by threatening to get someone fired. Good for him. And good for the SBC, for not resorting to their typical, unethical arm twisting so that a few self-appointed prominents get their way and their benefits out of it.
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Sandy refuses to be honest about takeover racism

Postby Stephen Fox » Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:15 pm

To dismiss that on mere speculation about your alleged "racist cabal" of thirty years ago, and your resentment of Moore's position is missing the point. Moore gets it right, and so far, seems to be consistently displaying the kind of courage it takes to continue to give more than mere lip service to Biblical principles and values long held by conservatives, but completely abandoned in their rush to support Trump. Southern Baptists have not been averse to using the livelihood of their employees to bend their opinion to their will, and to silence anything they don't want to hear. As far as I'm concerned, as long as Moore maintains his lack of support for Trump, his credibility soars


Sandy quoted above. It is not speculation about the leadership of the takeover and their inner circle collusion thirty years ago in the takeover. Well documented leanings and participation of the fellows I mention. Hard to believe Russ Moore got so bright after he gained the Richard Land chair of right wing lobbying, even though giving lip service to their adoration for ML King.

The record is clear. It is Sandy who remains in the fog about the takeover and its putrid networks.

Read my blog Sandy. I congratulate SBC for a step in the right direction. But I do not whitewash the history of how they got here. WSJ is interesting. There woulda been no alt right resolution without Dwight McKissic and the twitter firestorm.
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Linda and Kathryn Sheriff

Postby Stephen Fox » Fri Jun 16, 2017 3:30 pm

have telling exchange on the alt right resolution on the facebook wall of ERLC. Go now while easy to find, the Truth about the Alt Right post with bench picture.
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Surprises on this resolution keep coming, this one from Inde

Postby Stephen Fox » Fri Jun 16, 2017 5:21 pm

https://christianindex.org/fathers-day- ... -baptists/

Columnist Barkley appears to be a native of NE Bama
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Duke scholars weigh in

Postby Stephen Fox » Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:15 pm

https://baptistnews.com/article/violenc ... URYSnkQWM9

Eric Metaxas the Trump apologist and darling of Billy Graham and Trey Gowdy's Truth for a New Generation Conferences at FBC Spartanburg; Eric aint long for the spotlight on this one either.
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Re: SBC condemns alt-right

Postby William Thornton » Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:58 pm

The two lib scholars offer a can of tripe with a little bit of edible fare.

You stay in touch with them stephen. We're moved on...long ago.

If you start with a stream of unrelated 70s vintage junk I'll start cleaning your stuff up again.
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Re: SBC condemns alt-right

Postby Sandy » Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:05 am

It wouldn't be a Southern Baptist Convention without some controversy surrounding the resolutions. It surprising that the nuances which get brought into the discussion don't create a controversy over a resolution expressing gratitude to the host city. I'm sure there are those among the perpetually attending messengers who could find a way to pick a fight over that.

Resolutions seem to increasingly be a way for the SBC to make doctrinal statements and send messages about how scripture is to be interpreted. Not only is there an emphasis on the inerrancy of scripture, there is an emphasis on claiming inerrancy for their interpretation of scripture. These two guys were right on target with their analysis of the resolution on the Reformation.

Many Southern Baptists can't separate their belief in the inerrancy of scripture from their beliefs and interpretations of scripture being inerrant. That's exactly what this resolution that makes a doctrinal statement affirms. It's a doctrinal statement with that little wink-wink at the end, which indicates that we know our interpretation is right, and that of other denominations is wrong. I mean, we all know that, right?

An SBC gathering of 15 years ago would have ignored McKissic's motion altogether, and done as they pleased with the other resolutions. So there's some measurable progress from the way it used to be. However, in acknowledging that things have changed in the SBC, rejecting Dr. McKissic's original motion, and going with a more watered-down version later on, only after pressure from messengers pushed it forward over the resolution committee's desires, had the effect of zapping some of the energy out of the progress. I don't understand the hesitancy in condemning something that is antithetical to the core values of Christian faith, rooted in scripture.
Last edited by Sandy on Sat Jun 17, 2017 9:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: SBC condemns alt-right

Postby Dave Roberts » Sat Jun 17, 2017 9:50 am

It is slow but good progress. In the 1950's, the SBC condemned Brown v. Board of Education. In the 1960's there were those wanting to fire Professors who were friendly to the civil rights movement. We still have descendants of both groups all across all Baptist groups.
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Re: SBC condemns alt-right

Postby William Thornton » Sat Jun 17, 2017 1:16 pm

Dave Roberts wrote:It is slow but good progress. In the 1950's, the SBC condemned Brown v. Board of Education. In the 1960's there were those wanting to fire Professors who were friendly to the civil rights movement. We still have descendants of both groups all across all Baptist groups.


You may be a candidate for Fox's team. Attending an SBC annual meeting would correct your vintage perspective. The SBC is almost certainly more ethnic and minority driven these days than the CBF.
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Re: SBC condemns alt-right

Postby Sandy » Sat Jun 17, 2017 2:29 pm

William Thornton wrote:Attending an SBC annual meeting would correct your vintage perspective. The SBC is almost certainly more ethnic and minority driven these days than the CBF.


I don't think CBF has ever been ethnic or minority driven, and don't see that happening any time soon. Stephen usually ignores comments which point out that many of his CBF buds are right wing Republicans when it comes to politics.

Maybe William can give some insight into this particular issue, since he was in Phoenix. Obviously, things are different in the SBC. The ERLC director has taken a political stance, consistent with the SBC's values, but not consistent with the presidential preference of what is most likely a majority of Southern Baptists, or at least, of while, upper middle class, older Southern Baptists, and that's certainly evidence of a change. Not walking in political lock step with the leadership was once a ticket to the unemployment line among SBC executive staff. The fact that messengers from the floor forced an appointed, and probably heavily stacked, resolutions committee to reconsider something they were planning to pass over and hope it went away is also evidence of real change, especially considering the content of the resolution and its author. In the past, the convention leadership would have strong-armed any attempt to step outside the cut and dried.

I'd have enjoyed that discussion, I think, and might have even ventured to a microphone.
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Re: SBC condemns alt-right

Postby William Thornton » Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:58 pm

I'll give scintillating and insightful perspective tomorrow.
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McKissic: Betty Criswell still teaching Curse of Ham in 90s

Postby Stephen Fox » Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:10 am

http://the1a.org/shows/2017-06-19/big-t ... st-history

One hour program yesterday on NPR. Today Rick Burgess in same vein as Willie Tee dismissed it all saying all the Leadership--Gaines, Barrett Duke etc-- did was "clarify" a resolution so the Convention could go on record as being anti-Nazi.

The scholar at Duke and McKissic in this must listen hour above have reservations about Rick Burgess take.

Read my blog. I'm going to see what Willie Tee said now
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Re: SBC condemns alt-right

Postby William Thornton » Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:16 pm

That was an interesting broadcast, Stephen. Russell Moore was very good. I enjoyed hearing Dwight McKissick with whom I have exchanged numerous messages over the past few years. The Duke prof was unimpressive.. The moderator of the discussion was pretty good and well informed. I would challenge the statement that The SBC harbors any alt-right elements in an official manner. Even the independent blog SBC Today, noted by McKissick, has no friendliness toward alt-right stuff although moderators may have failed to delete some comments or ban some participants. I challenge any assertion that any alt-right people or organizations have ever knowingly been permitted to distribute literature or have exhibition space at any SBC meeting.

It's not a secret that the SBC's origination was as a result of slavery, although I regularly hear folks tout this as if they have discovered some new truth. It's no secret that the SBC was and is mostly white and southern. It's not news that SBC committees, trustees, and leaders are mostly white. But here's some things not well known:

About 20% of SBC congregations are non-caucasian. For all their words, the CBF is more lily white than the SBC.

The participation of minorities has been expanded exponentially in recent years and that deliberately by the various committees and trustees who take such actions. No one accepts that this is sufficient but no one expects that it will not continue to increase.

No one speaks for all SBCers but when the SBC leaders have spoken they have universally condemned racism, racial supremacy, and the like and when the SBC in session has spoken they have done the same thing.

The process of approving resolutions is messy. I don't know but that the CBF has a better system which disallows such things.

If you would actually attend an SBC church, Stephen, you might learn something that isn't available on your favorite outlets.
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