More on Moore

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More on Moore

Postby Sandy » Sun Jan 29, 2017 11:00 pm

https://world.wng.org/2016/12/supporter ... _criticism

Haven't heard the latest, though I hear that Moore, while not taking anything back about Trump, is getting shrill and hard line on some specific issues, perhaps as a means of distracting criticism or re-establishing his conservative credentials. If Moore gets pushed out, it will split the SBC, not down the middle, but it will lose most of what remains of its younger, more progressive wing, those who have abandoned sacred cows for the sake of evangelism and church growth, and the vast majority of its growing segment of ethnic congregations. I'm not sure that Moore will get pushed out, though.

Actually Dave Miller, who blogs frequently on SBC Voices, has a pretty good handle on this.

http://sbcvoices.com/a-russell-moore-re ... calm-down/
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Re: More on Moore

Postby William Thornton » Mon Jan 30, 2017 6:33 am

I don't claim any special insight or inside information on this squabble but think it's wise to view the matter through the lens of Calvinism. The militant anticalvinists in the SBC see an opening here to damage or dispatch a Calvinist and one close to Al Mohler. It's more about that than secular politics.

The anticals are loud but to date toothless in that they haven't demonstrated any real power. If a motion is made relative to this at the annual meeting we will see where it stands. I believe such a move would fail. The ERLC is overfunded (at $4mil annually) and I would favor a motion to step down their cooperative program allocation but not in this climate.

I agree that thee SBC's young Turks are at odds with the old lions on this. At some point the anticals may attempt a funding diversion. I don't see a lot of churches joining this.
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Re: More on Moore

Postby Sandy » Mon Jan 30, 2017 10:24 am

I've followed this on the blogs, but haven't seen much in the Baptist papers I read. To be honest, I'm really surprised that this Calvinist-Non (or anti) Calvinist battle has shaped up, formed boundaries, and developed as it has. In a denomination structured and operated like the SBC, something like that should be flying well under the radar screen.

I'd have thought the anti-Trump stance of both Moore and Mohler would have been much more significant, especially since the exit polling showed that upwards of 80% of "Evangelicals", which would include most Southern Baptists, were wholehearted supporters by the time the election rolled around, or maybe just Hillary Haters, though the apologists and defenses of Trump have been astoundingly shocking, coming from some quarters. There are many Calvinists in the school where I work, due to the high percentage of them among the Protestant community in Western Pennsylvania, including Reformed Presbyterians, Evangelical Presbyterians, Orthodox Presbyterians and PCA, and a scattering of GARBC churches and independent Baptists that are more like them than the "IFB" churches down south that align with Tennessee Temple or the Jack Hyles flag wavers. The Reformed and Orthodox Presbies do not register or vote, and their kids will stand respectfully, but will not salute or pledge the American flag, much less talk politics. Their presence makes for lively discussions in Bible classes, especially since the other half of the school comes from much more progressive, non-denominational churches, or Charismatics, most of whom are non-Calvinist, or up-front Arminian, but I have a hard time seeing why there is such a sharp divide in a loosely confederated denomination like the SBC. They are cooperative, and I never hear any insistence that our teachers or staff believe it their way in order to earn their respect and cooperation.
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Re: More on Moore

Postby William Thornton » Mon Jan 30, 2017 12:54 pm

There is a considerable anti-calvinist component, a rather militant one, in the SBC. You can view most all conflict through that one lens.

I'd view the Trump vote as anti-Hil.
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Re: More on Moore

Postby Sandy » Mon Jan 30, 2017 3:19 pm

How do Calvinists line up on the trustee boards? Southern would obviously need to have a majority of them, perhaps the ERLC does as well? And there's David Platt, at the IMB, who is Calvinist, supports women's ordination and speaking in tongues. Interesting developments in the SBC. Who's next up for SBC Prez? That's the key to the trustee boards.
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Rick Burgess is the New Pressler

Postby Stephen Fox » Tue Jan 31, 2017 7:48 pm

You can laugh if you want but check Yellowhammer News. Bama is Trumps America and Rick and Bubba are the new fulcrum in Babdist life in the South. Faith Freedom and Firearms is their mantra. They have the inside of the Trump White House at their disposal through Bannon's right hand man Cliff Sims brought up from Yellowhammer, champion of all things Rick and Bubba Radio, and they shamelessly play the alt right demagogue radio game in Jeesus name and Rick Lance and the Bama Babdists don't have a clue what to do with them.

They are the new face of Pressler, Helms and Albert Lee Smith and they came to play like the true believers in Adrian Rogers that they are.

See my blog for more background on this insidious Baptist network in Bama

And Oh, Burgess had a famous dust up with Russ Moore on radio over Mitt Romney last fall. He's earned his street cred.
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Re: More on Moore

Postby William Thornton » Tue Jan 31, 2017 8:09 pm

Sandy wrote:How do Calvinists line up on the trustee boards? Southern would obviously need to have a majority of them, perhaps the ERLC does as well? And there's David Platt, at the IMB, who is Calvinist, supports women's ordination and speaking in tongues. Interesting developments in the SBC. Who's next up for SBC Prez? That's the key to the trustee boards.


I've never seen a headcount of trustees dividing them into Cals and Trads. Not sure I'd describe platt as you did.
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Re: More on Moore

Postby Sandy » Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:28 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRTp_JS_5sU

Platt, on speaking in tongues. Not a Pentecostal or Charismatic by any stretch of the imagination, but not a cessationist, either, which would be contrary to most Southern Baptists on the subject. That's not particularly a Calvinist perspective, though he is characterized in several biographical references to his books as one of the SBC's "young Calvinist leaders." If you've read Radical, you could make an argument for that. Apparently there's enough evidence for his wikipedia sketch to characterize his theology as reformed and Calvinist, and to detect Reformed Theology as one of his interests.

I've learned, through a long period of involvement with Southern Baptists at most of the levels of denominational organization, that theological positions and perspectives don't really matter as much as connections and relationships do when it comes to winding up on a trustee board, or in a particular job. As a college freshman at an SBC-related college we had to take a class called "Church Growth and Development." It was taught by the exec director of the state Baptist convention, and as a denominational man to the core, one of the things he emphasized to the students was the importance of "hitching your wagon" to the right people "if you want to get anywhere in this denomination." That wasn't the last time I heard that. Theological views and positions are mainly means of eliminating personalities. If someone is being pushed by a kingmaker, their theology isn't going to matter much.
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Re: More on Moore

Postby William Thornton » Thu Feb 02, 2017 11:58 am

Lots of SBCers aren't cessationists. Nothing big there. Haven't heard him on women's ordination. Not arguing that he isn't a Cal. The rabid anti-cals certainly think he is.
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Re: More on Moore

Postby Rvaughn » Thu Feb 02, 2017 9:42 pm

This post is representative of the anger toward Moore. I don't know how widespread it is. It may be like a puffed-up furry cat -- a lot more show than substance.

http://sbctoday.wpengine.com/russell-moores-erlc-a-compendium-of-concern/
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Re: More on Moore

Postby William Thornton » Fri Feb 03, 2017 6:59 am

Rvaughn wrote:This post is representative of the anger toward Moore. I don't know how widespread it is. It may be like a puffed-up furry cat -- a lot more show than substance.

http://sbctoday.wpengine.com/russell-moores-erlc-a-compendium-of-concern/


The website is stridently anticalvinist, as is the author of that piece; hence, an endless stream of anti-Moore stuff. In the SBC Calvinism is the lens through which to view criticism of Moore.

There may be a move at the SBC annual meeting against Moore and the ERLC. I doubt it will be successful if it happens.

BTW, Moore has offered an apology of a sort.
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Re: More on Moore

Postby Rvaughn » Fri Feb 03, 2017 10:16 am

William Thornton wrote:The website is stridently anticalvinist, as is the author of that piece; hence, an endless stream of anti-Moore stuff. In the SBC Calvinism is the lens through which to view criticism of Moore.
Thanks, William. That was the point of my post, related to what you had said about this above; but I failed to mention that connection. Seems the Pulpit and Pen folks are an exception to the anti-Calvinist, anti-Moore rhetoric (being Calvinist and anti-Moore), but maybe they are just an anomaly in general anyway.
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Re: More on Moore

Postby Sandy » Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:39 pm

Rvaughn wrote:This post is representative of the anger toward Moore. I don't know how widespread it is. It may be like a puffed-up furry cat -- a lot more show than substance.

http://sbctoday.wpengine.com/russell-moores-erlc-a-compendium-of-concern/


That's quite an interesting assortment of opinion. Observations, in the context that the opinions and statements on that site are representative of a "mainstream" of Southern Baptists...

1. The idea that no Baptist speaks for any other Baptist has apparently either been completely abandoned, or hasn't been taught, post-resurgence. It doesn't seem like many of those who posted in that "compendium of concern" read the ERLC's mission statement, or have much of a clue regarding what that agency is charged with doing, or how it works.
2. There is a strong perception that the opinion held by the bloggers, and identified as the "majority conservative evangelical opinion of Southern Baptists" is actually the majority, without any facts or evidence to establish that it is, and then, that only the majority actually counts. The fact that there is a minority, or that the minority could be fairly significant in size and scope, or that it could be them, is of no consideration whatsoever.
3. Moore's Calvinism is a problem, but his bringing in non-Southern Baptist Calvinists from the Gospel Coalition to work at the ERLC was apparently more problematic, along with his post-millenial views and his perspective on racial reconciliation.

With the SBC's trustee system of operation, Moore is probably safe within a trustee board that supports his views, understands what he is doing, and holds similar views. On the other hand, any SBC board is susceptible to string pullers and influential prominente with connections. There's always a chance that this compendium is not really representative of any "majority" but they're just loud guys with a keyboard.

If they are representative of the attitudes and opinions within the SBC these days, it is not hard to see why the decline in membership and attendance is accelerating.
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Re: More on Moore

Postby Rvaughn » Fri Feb 03, 2017 4:07 pm

Sandy wrote:There's always a chance that this compendium is not really representative of any "majority" but they're just loud guys with a keyboard.
That would be my guess; but that's all it is, a guess.
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Re: More on Moore

Postby Sandy » Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:06 am

https://www.onenewsnow.com/perspectives ... bout-trump

This is a pretty interesting perspective on Moore's tenure at the ERLC. The author contends that Moore started angering political conservatives several years back, not just with his trashing of the orange haired buffoon.

Moore has angered conservatives because of the following list of reasons:
1. He's caricatured and discredited conservatives and the Religious Right.
2. He's chastised conservatives for embracing politics at the expense of the gospel, as he's regularly commented on and engaged in (largely liberal) politics.
3. He's said he would attend a same-sex wedding reception, has dialogued with homosexual activists (while marginalizing a conservative ministry that reaches out to those struggling with homosexuality) and baselessly repudiated a straw-man caricature of reparative therapy
4. Only certain political candidates at Christian campuses drew his public opposition, while certain Southern Baptist GOP candidates were left off the invite list of the ERLC presidential candidates forum.
5. Throughout the 2016 campaign, Moore not only routinely criticized Donald Trump, but also appeared to delight in the provocation.
6. While regularly criticizing Donald Trump, Moore had little to say about Hillary Clinton, although he did note that he once wanted to marry a woman just like her.
7. Under Moore's leadership, the ERLC jumped on board legally to help the Obama Administration bully a New Jersey township into allowing a mosque to be built, despite the township planners' concerns about a lack of details on issues like parking and buffer zones bordering the site's residential neighborhoods.
8. Despite the fact that the SBC has strongly supported the nation of Israel, Moore and the ERLC have yet to issue any statement opposing the barbaric, anti-Israel UNSC Resolution 2334.'

These are headings from a commentary by Janet Mefferd, a commentator for American Family Radio, which already makes her facts subject to question and suspect. She makes several assertions about things that have already been proven to be false, including about Muslim immigration.

If Moore has done all this, and I'm sure the perspective is quite slanted in this opinion piece, then Southern Baptists really do need him, and he has returned some measure of credibility to a denomination which, frankly, is not really taken seriously.
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Re: More on Moore

Postby Rvaughn » Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:24 pm

Sandy wrote:...If Moore has done all this, and I'm sure the perspective is quite slanted in this opinion piece, then Southern Baptists really do need him, and he has returned some measure of credibility to a denomination which, frankly, is not really taken seriously.
Sandy, by whom is the SBC not taken seriously? This is a very subjective statement that applies and does not apply to lots of folks.
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Re: More on Moore

Postby JE Pettibone » Fri Feb 17, 2017 6:16 am

Rvaughn wrote:
Sandy wrote:...If Moore has done all this, and I'm sure the perspective is quite slanted in this opinion piece, then Southern Baptists really do need him, and he has returned some measure of credibility to a denomination which, frankly, is not really taken seriously.
Sandy, by whom is the SBC not taken seriously? This is a very subjective statement that applies and does not apply to lots of folks.


Ed: So Sandy, why then does Moore as president of an SBC entity, frequently get quoted in the secular press as if what he says is important to some one? Long time followers of BL.C know that having attended a number of events on which Moore later reported, I am not one of Russ's fans.
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Re: More on Moore

Postby Sandy » Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:11 am

Rvaughn wrote:
Sandy wrote:...If Moore has done all this, and I'm sure the perspective is quite slanted in this opinion piece, then Southern Baptists really do need him, and he has returned some measure of credibility to a denomination which, frankly, is not really taken seriously.
Sandy, by whom is the SBC not taken seriously? This is a very subjective statement that applies and does not apply to lots of folks.


I know a lot of Southern Baptists who don't take the SBC seriously. And that's really not a tongue-in-cheek or rhetorical statement. Sixty percent of the people whose names are on the membership rolls of its churches don't even attend church. Start there.

Get out of the land of cotton where old times are not forgotten, and you'll find out pretty quickly that Southern Baptists are not only not taken seriously, even by many who share similar doctrine and theology, but there are those who think of them as a cult. There's a growing number of churches, even in the South, that are dropping both the name Baptist and identifying marks of a relationship with the SBC. Why would that be, do you think?

In right wing politics involving conservative Evangelicals, the acceptance may be a bit wider, but that's a relatively limited audience.
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Re: More on Moore

Postby Rvaughn » Fri Feb 17, 2017 4:41 pm

Sandy wrote:I know a lot of Southern Baptists who don't take the SBC seriously. And that's really not a tongue-in-cheek or rhetorical statement. Sixty percent of the people whose names are on the membership rolls of its churches don't even attend church. Start there.
Certainly true, but based on that logic there are probably hundreds of denominations that are not taken seriously -- including mine and yours.

Get out of the land of cotton where old times are not forgotten, and you'll find out pretty quickly that Southern Baptists are not only not taken seriously, even by many who share similar doctrine and theology, but there are those who think of them as a cult. There's a growing number of churches, even in the South, that are dropping both the name Baptist and identifying marks of a relationship with the SBC.
Yes, that is happening, but the trend to drop denominational names from the church name isn't limited to the SBC or even Baptists. I don't like the trend -- I'd rather see Baptist or not-a-Baptist or whatever, rather than "The Bridge" or something vague like that -- because I like to have an idea what it is. But I don't think what I like is going to be all that relevant with the coming generations. It seems this is what they like.

Not exactly the same as above, in 2010 the Hartford Institute for Religion Research "found over 35,000 independent or nondenominational churches representing more than 12,200,000 adherents." That is where a lot of the growth is, compared to either the SBC or mainline denominations.
http://hirr.hartsem.edu/cong/nondenom.html

In right wing politics involving conservative Evangelicals, the acceptance may be a bit wider, but that's a relatively limited audience.
Limited though it may be, hasn't the "left wing" been claiming they are ones who put Trump in office?
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Re: More on Moore

Postby Sandy » Fri Feb 17, 2017 5:15 pm

Rvaughn wrote:Limited though it may be, hasn't the "left wing" been claiming they are ones who put Trump in office?


I've seen a little of that, not much. If you wade through most of the election exit polling data and analysis, the Evangelical vote has declined by 11% since 2008, and only 4% of millenial generation voters self-identified as white Evangelicals in 2016, down from 11% in 2008. And in the long run, the thing that always comes back to undermine the conclusions is the fact that Hillary Clinton, not Donald Trump, is the second highest presidential vote getter in history. He couldn't have won without their support, but Obama won over their highest turnout ever in 2008, and with a relatively comfortable margin in 2012 with an Evangelical turnout roughly equal to 2016.

Moore and Al Mohler are probably two of the highest profile Southern Baptists and they were anti-trumpers, which is evidence contributing to the claim that Southern Baptists are not taken seriously, even in right wing conservative politics.
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Re: More on Moore

Postby Rvaughn » Fri Feb 17, 2017 6:36 pm

Sandy, I'm not in the SBC and not an apologist for it, just think you're overthinking how little influence they have.

Nevertheless, while I think they probably have more influence than you think they have, I think the leadership have much less influence on their rank & file than they think they have. Years ago when we voted on the lottery here in Texas, I thought it would never pass -- too many Baptist in Texas, and if the majority of voting Southern Baptists voted against it surely it wouldn't pass. It passed.
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Re: More on Moore

Postby Haruo » Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:37 pm

Rvaughn wrote:Sandy, I'm not in the SBC and not an apologist for it, just think you're overthinking how little influence they have.

Nevertheless, while I think they probably have more influence than you think they have, I think the leadership have much less influence on their rank & file than they think they have. Years ago when we voted on the lottery here in Texas, I thought it would never pass -- too many Baptist in Texas, and if the majority of voting Southern Baptists voted against it surely it wouldn't pass. It passed.

Probably a lot of them wanted to be sure to leave God an avenue in case He suddenly wanted to make them rich.
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Re: More on Moore

Postby Haruo » Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:06 pm

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Re: More on Moore

Postby JE Pettibone » Mon Feb 20, 2017 11:25 pm

Ed: Sandy RE; your post of 5:i5 on the 17th High Profile and Influential are not of necessity synonymous. True Mohler and Moore have a strong following among young Baptist Rabid Calvinist, however the vast majority of of Southern Baptist are not young, nor are even more, Rabid Calvinist, many who profess to be Calvinist and understand the argument prefer to be known as Modified Calvinist, dropping one or more petals of the TULIP.
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Re: More on Moore

Postby Sandy » Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:36 pm

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