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OK, Stephen, comment needed on this

PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:12 pm
by William Thornton ... ent-339234

Here's your big chance. Go to SBCV and don't let me down on this.

Re: OK, Stephen, comment needed on this

PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:25 pm
by Haruo
Interesting article. I posted a link on FB with a tag for Stephen.

Re: OK, Stephen, comment needed on this

PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:53 pm
by William Thornton
Thanks. This is in Stephen's wheelhouse.

Re: OK, Stephen, comment needed on this

PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:00 am
by Jim
The Tozer quote relating to God’s conquering of man before he can bless or do anything with man seems strange, especially in light of the scriptural mentions of God (or at least Christ) dying to set man free. God conquered Jezebel by letting the dogs eat her carcass—death, in other words. The same was true with Ananias and Sapphira. All three were conquered but not blessed or used. Perhaps heretically speaking, precisely because God couldn’t or wouldn’t conquer man (of his own volition), He gave up and redeemed man through the work of Christ. God doesn’t make a servant of man; rather, man becomes a servant to God upon his own volition. God’s way is persuasion, as found out by Moses and Paul, although blindness could admittedly come close to conquering, that alternative being overwhelmingly unattractive.

Ron West makes interesting comment on Miller's blog

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 11:50 pm
by Stephen Fox

Ron West says

December 22, 2016 at 1:46 am

The political influence in our convention has been around for some time Since at least the early 80s, Paul Presssler, Paige Patterson, Jerry Falwell and others have been leaders in the Committee on National Policy, a right wing group largely funded by Sun Myung Moon’s organization and the Coors Beer Family. Jerry Falwell even appeared several times on the platform with Moon at his meetings. This organization had tremendous influence over what was happening in our convention.

I was also at the 1989 SBC meeting where Chapman was elected. At that convention the CLC/ERLC presented a first time award for Religious LIberty to Jesse Helms who was in a tight senate race. The chairman of that organization was Sam Currin a former staffer of Helms. Richard Land the director was only too happy to cooperate in what amounted to a political endorsement. Land while serving at the ERLC was little more than Pressler’s cooperative program funded agent to represent CNP interest.

I was at the convention two years ago when we passed a resolution urging the government to start offering funding for Christian schools so we could dip our hands into the government money bag and give government additional control over Christian schools. I spoke against this and the committee member presenting the resolution confirmed this was their goal

Quoting myself from Alan Bean

PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 9:34 am
by Stephen Fox
Alan Bean's facebook wall. Bean contributes to Baptist Global News and Ethicsdaily. With myself he understands the how the fundy takeover of the SBC matters almost as well as anybody I know.Certanly better than Lee Saunders and the Bush League Dave Miller

In tandem with Edsall's piece in NY Times in October with the "killer" concluding indictment by Randall Balmer I think the dead end is spot on. There were other factors for sure. but I think as you build the puzzle, the building blocks from the foundation up, There woulda never been this Trump Moment without the momentum builder and the cornerstone of the fundamentalist takeover of the Southern Baptist Convention. Other factors for certain, but the far right poison was there in the genetic code of Presslerism.......I had another thought today, had I seen Trump coming I mighta been willing to sacrifice Obama to Romney in 2012 so the center could hold. But that's all speculation of the past now.

Russ Moore and Dave Milller Dead Enders

PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 9:39 am
by Stephen Fox
Neil Young has their number in this piece Alan Bean spotlighted last week. Also shows a little ugly history of Christianity Today and the sophomoric rationale of Richard Mouw. ... -dead-end/

Slactivist is a proper framing of the takeover and its reverberations to Trump and Moore and the New Yorker piece on SBC. Compared to Bean and Young, Moore and Dave Miller are lightweights for certain.

Re: OK, Stephen, comment needed on this

PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 1:01 pm
by Sandy
That's a great link, Stephen. It doesn't really connect to the conservative resurgence, but you probably can connect the culture that has infected both Southern Baptists and other Evangelicals when it comes to the gigantic disconnect they've made between Biblical values and their political affiliation.

Many of Russell Moore's critics in the SBC are talking like the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission that he directs actually had some kind of influence in Washington under Land's leadership, because he sucked up to Bush. Of course, now most Southern Baptists and Evangelicals are Bush-haters, because his integrity wouldn't allow him to abandon his values and support Trump. I've got news for them. In spite of the defunding of the Baptist Joint Committee by the SBC, and the establishment of the ERLC, it doesn't take much research to find that the BJC has done more, and wielded more influence, than the ERLC under Land. The ERLC more or less just tagged along. It wasn't innovative or engaging until Moore came along.

I've linked another article that I think sheds some light on what Richard Mouw was saying. He was pointing to indications, largely among younger Evangelicals, of the kind of advancement into a more progressive social culture than has previously been the case. What he's seeing is what is happening among members of the millennial generation in Evangelical churches. He was optimistic, but what he isn't observing is that most millennials are leaving Evangelical churches, only 5% of them are now even engaged at all, and if you look at the article I'm linking, you'll see that their frustration is partly due to their feeling that the church is not progressive enough, and that all of its efforts at "evangelism" are not producing the expected results when it comes to things like injustice, racism and social change. In fact, millennials see that the emphasis on conversion and life transformation that is at the core of Evangelical theology is not really producing the life transformation. ... er-church/

Moore in Dec 25 Wash Post

PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2016 8:50 am
by Stephen Fox
The Kemba or Emba oped

Brought to my attention by Alan Bean on facebook

Here is what I said to Allen this morn re the Post piece

The Neil J Young exchange with Mouw remains the best exercise in the exploration of Moore for my two cents to date. Moore caught Hades in the remarks at Yellowhammer News site in Bama, Yahmmer News pretty much the political mouthpiece of the 14 campus Baptist church of the Highlands which saturates Central Alabama. And in all this discussion the New Yorker Piece in Ocotber must not be forgotten. That said it remains Russ Moore is out of his league for this moment, shoulda never had the platform he now has in the first place, It was Birch Society mentality in the takeover that elevated Moore to this position and because of his origin story his is an Impostor. There is no Trump, there is no sophomoric Russ Moore and his measly resistance without the huge piece of the Religious Right buttress puzzle, the fundamentalist takeover of the SBC whose driving core of Pressler, Jesse Helms, McAteer and Albert Lee Smith were hardwired to the John Birch Society. With that in mind Tom Edsall and his concluding quote by Randall Balmer in NY times is the kerygma.

Re: OK, Stephen, comment needed on this

PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2016 2:20 pm
by Sandy
Fred Clark in Slactivist wrote:Here we are. The wrong road that white evangelicalism has stubbornly been following has led us here, to 2016, and the election of Donald J. Trump thanks, largely, to the overwhelming support of white evangelicals. This is not an aberration, but a culmination. This is where that road takes you. It’s where you’re bound to end up if you drive long enough using only the segregationists and the wealthy donors as your GPS.

This is the main point made by the blogger, Fred Clark, that you cited above. Don't miss the point, or let it be swallowed up along a rabbit trail back to the conservative resurgence/fundamentalist takeover. There are some important developments here. Southern Baptists appear headed toward a decision that is going to open up a fissure that the rest of Evangelical Christianity is also going to experience. People like Russ Moore, and David Platt, among others, represent somewhat of a turn in the SBC, away from just using personal influence and prominence to gain a denominational position, and toward those who actually seem to be able to get things done, and who have come to an understanding that spiritual power and fidelity to the Bible find their expression in deeds, not positions, and in their own right, not dependent on someone else's political power. Whether that attitude is now in the majority isn't clear, and I kind of doubt that it is, and what the convention does with Moore will give some real insight as to where it is headed. It's been disconcerting for Evangelicals, and particularly for Southern Baptists, to experience the kind of numerical decline in participation and membership that the mainline denominations have dealt with for decades, and to realize that an entire generation is missing from their ranks. Some people with heads on their shoulders have realized that there's not a lot of practicing what is preached, especially when it comes to politics, and to consistency in social ministry.

Moore is one of many who hold to conservative theology, and see the hypocrisy and inconsistency in claiming that mantle, and taking the political direction that most Evangelicals go. The rift has been coming. It wasn't as difficult to reconcile during the Bush administrations, though not always. Romney's run for the White House put some pressure on the rift, because of his Mormon beliefs, but the Trump candidacy brought the exact same moral issues to bear on the election that conservative evangelicals had tried to impose on Bill Clinton. So the crack between consistency and fidelity to Biblical principles, or support for Trump, widened considerably. The apparent strong support for Trump from white evangelicals has fractured the rift, and what's happening with Moore, among other things happening in other groups, is the result. The SBC is such a backwardly structured organization that agitators and noisemakers can force decisions that really wouldn't need to be made otherwise, so we will get to see, within the denomination, the direction it chooses to go. If they push Moore out, you can probably set the closing date for the end of their effective ministry.


PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2016 4:55 pm
by Haruo
Where does Mohler stand in all this? I remember reading an anti-Trump statement from him earlier in the year but don't know what his stance was after Trump became the nominee.

Re: OK, Stephen, comment needed on this

PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2016 9:33 pm
by Sandy
This was October, mid-month, about two weeks before the election. ... n-tonight/

This was November 9, following the election. ... 100217.htm

Not exactly a "walk-back" but a piece with a stronger condemnation of Hillary Clinton. Well, he still works for the denomination, and his radio program heavily depends on Southern Baptists tuning in. This is more of an explanation of why Evangelicals did what he said they shouldn't do, and abandoned their values in order to vote for Trump. Except, of course, their opposition to abortion. Some of his "facts" are not quite straight. I think the actual figure cited for Evangelical support for Trump was somewhere around 75%, not 86%, and that was for "White Evangelicals" not including African Americans or HIspanics. And of course, on November 9, perhaps he didn't realize that Clinton would eventually wind up with three million more votes than Trump, and that the electoral loss came down to 50,000 voters in five counties in three states, not exactly a "repudiation." So if you asked whether my opinion is that he's trying to appease angry, intolerant Southern Baptists who demand lock-step agreement with everything they think from denominational employees, I'd say yes, that's exactly what he's trying to do.

Moore could become a genuinely prophetic voice by continuing to stand on principle and be the contrast to the inherent backwardness of Southern Baptists trying to turn their leaders into puppets that say what they want them to. He's sharp enough to figure out how to carve out a niche that comes with financial support from like-minded individuals who are long past wanting to see deeds matched with words. If he looks past the narrow bubble of "Southern Baptist life" into the broader Evangelical Christian community, he'll find plenty of allies, and plenty of support, especially if they are willing to embrace African American and Latino brethren, and allow them to lead and set the agenda.

Mohler could be a prophetic voice as well, but I think he's too entrenched in the SBC bureaucracy, and too dependent on the way it operates to speak freely, truthfully and prophetically.

Re: OK, Stephen, comment needed on this

PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 2:29 am
by Haruo
Well, if push comes to shove and Homeland Security asks any of you what mosque I attend, you can tell them the Oromo Cultural Center mosque in Rainier Bveach. Not that Ethiopia would be my first choice for a place to be deported to...

Russ Moore is no prophet

PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 5:39 am
by Stephen Fox
Nowhere have I seen Russ Moore admit the point Wuthnow makes about the origins of the fundamentalist takeover of the Southern Baptist Convention in the margins, the penumbra of the John Birch Society. That is a strong point evident to the BX6400 shelf Sandy refuses to concede.

So Russ Moore remains in my book an impostor, a glass half full who is nobody without Paul Pressler and Al Mohler.

Russ Moore was silent for all practical purposes about the race card that became the abortion card perfected in Karl Rove's religion card that gave us Trump until there was Trump and Moore said Oops.

So all Sandy's Hagiography while interesting doesn't refute Wuthnow and Ellen Rosenberg, Dan Williams and Bill Moyers, even myself.

Re: OK, Stephen, comment needed on this

PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 1:03 am
by Sandy
Sorry, Stephen, but I think you're a little behind the times. We're more than a generation away from the alleged takeover aka conservative resurgence. The whole foundation of Evangelical involvement in the GOP has shifted. It used to be about projecting and imposing their values on candidates, and rejecting those (mostly Democrats) they judged not to have the moral character necessary to serve. Now it's about supporting a candidate whose moral character would have received a scathing rebuke from Evangelicals if he'd run as a D instead of an R. The bottom line is that most Evangelical leaders are taking a political position to protect their assets.

If majority of southerners to this day got the Civil War wro

PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:09 am
by Stephen Fox ... onert.html

Then whats to say they can work themselves out of the fundamentalist takeover of the SBC without Russ Moore being honest about the history that gave him a platform in the first place