SBC Overwhelming in affirmation of Dr McKissic's resolution

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Re: Good people fought for the South

Postby David Flick » Fri Jun 24, 2016 4:38 am

To Fox, Sandy wrote:Well, I have to hand it to you, Stephen, your creativity and imagination can create fantasy where no one else would ever see even a remote connection. You've moved from connecting blame for the rise of Donald Trump to Paul Pressler and the fundamentalist takover of the SBC, to blaming the NRA for the use of the confederate flag which somehow lead to the fundamentalist takeover of the SBC. You could have a career in fantasy writing.

    Amen to that... :lol:
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sandy

Postby Stephen Fox » Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:54 pm

Sandy wrote:
Stephen Fox wrote:Robert E Lee among them and a lot of poor Baptist farmers who fought because the "Yankees were down Here". Im glad my Great grandfather who is buried a mile from my house in Bama, fought with the Union as did Judge Frank Johnson's grandfather.

The Flag got revitalized and put back up on state capitols in late 50s and early 60s as resentment to Brown V Board of Education.

The Sad thing now is best I can figger Sandy and his friends in the SBC can't bring themselves to see what the NRA is now, which in effect is the latest Confederate Flag. The Flag and race baiting has morphed into support for the NRA and Assault Weapons and the SBC is no further along in standing against it than they were in the early 60s when the Confederate Flag went back up the flagpoles.

That is a legacy of the fundamentalist takeover of the SBC; same song different verse. Foy Valentine minus Pressler and Helms and my litany, would have the SBC at a different place now re assault weapons and the NRA. but as it is the leadership--see the rally to Trump's side-- is still in the woodshed with Joe McCarthy .

waiting on Ike to come give em a spanking

Also google Hal Crowther, The New Mind of the South, Oxford American.


Well, I have to hand it to you, Stephen, your creativity and imagination can create fantasy where no one else would ever see even a remote connection. You've moved from connecting blame for the rise of Donald Trump to Paul Pressler and the fundamentalist takover of the SBC, to blaming the NRA for the use of the confederate flag which somehow lead to the fundamentalist takeover of the SBC. You could have a career in fantasy writing.


What I said was now that race baiting and the confederate flag have run their course, The NRA is the wedge issue of the day and the SBC is struck mute. I cant help it that Sandy is functionally illiterate when Wuthnow is clear with the Atwater memo, now reified in the Daley Book on the politics of Atwater and Rove; all of which Richard Land and Ronnie Floyd and the SBC advisors to Trump are complicitous in. That's the point. its sad that for incapacity or stubbornness Flick, Sandy and others fail to understand.
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Re: sandy

Postby David Flick » Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:04 am

To Sandy, Stephen Fox wrote:What I said was now that race baiting and the confederate flag have run their course, The NRA is the wedge issue of the day and the SBC is struck mute. I cant help it that Sandy is functionally illiterate when Wuthnow is clear with the Atwater memo, now reified in the Daley Book on the politics of Atwater and Rove; all of which Richard Land and Ronnie Floyd and the SBC advisors to Trump are complicitous in. That's the point. its sad that for incapacity or stubbornness Flick, Sandy and others fail to understand.

    The sadder reality is that Fox is hopelessly trapped in the fantasy world of propaganda propagated by NPR, PBS, New Yorker Magazine, Religion Dispatches, etc., et. al.
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Randall Balmer response to Thornton, affirms Fox in WPost

Postby Stephen Fox » Sat Jun 25, 2016 12:40 pm

William Thornton wrote:Well...there you go again with a nonsensical foray into the 50s nd 60s. The current year, stephen, is 2016. Obama is president. Hil is likely his successor. Gay marriage is legal. George Wallace is dead. I interact with black SBC pastors almost every day.

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https://www.washingtonpost.com/postever ... nevitable/
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Re: SBC Overwhelming in affirmation of Dr McKissic's resolut

Postby William Thornton » Sat Jun 25, 2016 2:13 pm

You can post stray links until Jesus comes but not the other junk, stephen. Give it a little thought.
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Re: Randall Balmer response to Thornton, affirms Fox in WPos

Postby KeithE » Sat Jun 25, 2016 2:47 pm

Stephen Fox wrote:
William Thornton wrote:Well...there you go again with a nonsensical foray into the 50s nd 60s. The current year, stephen, is 2016. Obama is president. Hil is likely his successor. Gay marriage is legal. George Wallace is dead. I interact with black SBC pastors almost every day.

Join a good church and get up to date on church life.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/postever ... nevitable/

Balmer brings up good points - the absurdity of evangelicals supporting Donald Trump.

The question is whether William even read that article. He certainly did not react to any of its points. Just disses Fox.

Thanks Stephen for a good article! Certainly did not break any new thought for me, but should make any Christian (including evangelicals) think thrice or more about voting for Trump.
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Re: Randall Balmer response to Thornton, affirms Fox in WPos

Postby William Thornton » Sat Jun 25, 2016 3:33 pm

KeithE wrote:
Stephen Fox wrote:
William Thornton wrote:Well...there you go again with a nonsensical foray into the 50s nd 60s. The current year, stephen, is 2016. Obama is president. Hil is likely his successor. Gay marriage is legal. George Wallace is dead. I interact with black SBC pastors almost every day.

Join a good church and get up to date on church life.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/postever ... nevitable/

Balmer brings up good points - the absurdity of evangelicals supporting Donald Trump.

The question is whether William even read that article. He certainly did not react to any of its points. Just disses Fox.

Thanks Stephen for a good article! Certainly did not break any new thought for me, but should make any Christian (including evangelicals) think thrice or more about voting for Trump.


The question is whether or not Keith read Stephen's bit of nostalgic drivel to which I responded. Doesn't look like it.

I like Stephen too but don't have to sit still for his name-drop nonsense.

You are a faithful member of a real congregation. Stephen isnt. He is missing important things about church life with only a virtual ecclesiastical presence. He should fix that...then lecture the rest of us.
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Thornton doesnt know what he is talking about

Postby Stephen Fox » Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:06 pm

He lives in his own fantasy world limited by his own illusions still I like him too for the couple times a year he surprises me. And his blog is the only way these days I have of keeping up with Jerry Vines.

The point is Randall Balmer affirms the points I consistently make about the netherworld of Pressler' and Jesse Helms network which Balmer in this essay makes timely and accentuates. Thornton keeps deleting me when I agree with the leading religion scholars of our time.

As for Thornton's concern for my soul and church life he doesn't know what he is talking about. When he can make arrangement so set up an appointment with the Pasotr of the church in Collinsville, Mark Wilson of the Auburn University Democracy Project, the librarian Jennifer Wilkins and Martha Barksdale then I can give him a report of being in church where I belong next Sunday. I forgot Jackie and Donnie Myers the deacons the women sicced on me in the first place, yet they were in the minority vote to keep me in the fellowship

Thanks Keith, for reading the article
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Re: SBC Overwhelming in affirmation of Dr McKissic's resolut

Postby William Thornton » Sat Jun 25, 2016 6:50 pm

So, you are or aren't n a church on Sunday's? I recall all the liberry, gospel dog stuff.
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Even Bush 43 speechwriter sides with Balmer and Fox

Postby Stephen Fox » Sat Jun 25, 2016 8:12 pm

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... story.html

Jeremiah Wright was correct: "The chickens are coming Home to Roost!!!""

Michael Gerson a few days ago in the Washington Post. Not as strong as Balmer or my motif of the last 25 years but he is coming around.

Not that really is any of Thornton's business but I was in church last Sunday; got my picture taken with three Furman theologians and Facebook to prove it; and July 3 I will be at the Liberty Baptist Church in Henegar, Alabama with 200 of my best friends from across the World singing the Sacred Harp. you should come over Willie Boy, David's Lament for Absalom should resonate with you. And most likely I will be able to introduce you to a gggg granddaughter of Jonathan Edwards world. a perennial from Yale!!!!
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Re: Randall Balmer response to Thornton, affirms Fox in WPos

Postby KeithE » Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:51 am

William Thornton wrote:
Stephen Fox wrote:
William Thornton wrote:Well...there you go again with a nonsensical foray into the 50s nd 60s. The current year, stephen, is 2016. Obama is president. Hil is likely his successor. Gay marriage is legal. George Wallace is dead. I interact with black SBC pastors almost every day.

Join a good church and get up to date on church life.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/postever ... nevitable/


KeithE says (referring to Stephen’s linked article above):
Balmer brings up good points - the absurdity of evangelicals supporting Donald Trump.

The question is whether William even read that article. He certainly did not react to any of its points. Just disses Fox.

Thanks Stephen for a good article! Certainly did not break any new thought for me, but should make any Christian (including evangelicals) think thrice or more about voting for Trump.

William says:
The question is whether or not Keith read Stephen's bit of nostalgic drivel to which I responded. Doesn't look like it.


My apologies - neither of us set the stage right.

William's response at 1:13 pm was about 90 minutes after Stephen's post at 11:40am (where he posted the Balmer article about Evangelicals supporting Trump). It did not respond to that article but to previous unique Fox connections (as William calls it “nostalgic drivel”) with a rather sarcastic reply (quoted above "Well...there you go again....... ").

Personally I don’t buy the direct connection between the racism of the 50’s 60’s 70s with the SBC Takeover (80s 90s) - it was more a theological squabble, imo. But then again I did not live through it all while living in the South (as Stephen and William did) - moved to Huntsville in 1979.

An aside: I heard the most racist comments ever while living here the other night at a get-together after a 9/11 truth meeting. The guest from the San Francisco area Dr. Richard Gage was astounded and I was embarrassed. Older people there spoke of the need to segregate because of the smell and lack of cleanliness of blacks (among other putdowns of blacks as a people like they don’t speak clearly). These words were said right in front of our black waitress who acted professionally throughout.

Getting back to the original topic, sounds like a worthwhile resolution (Dr. McKissic’s) by the SBC wrt curtailing latent racism implied in the Confederate flag. I’m glad that in the name of Christ, racism was rejected. It would be helpful however, if the SBC voted to be part of the New Baptist Covenant in terms of divorcing itself from an admitted racist foundation in 1845 (and yes I know the SBC has apologized for the 1845 foundation several years ago). Theological sameness should not override love and common missions.
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Re: SBC Overwhelming in affirmation of Dr McKissic's resolut

Postby Sandy » Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:25 am

That is a pretty good article from the Post. It contains no support whatsoever for Stephen's name dropping rabbit trails that associate the rise of the conservative resurgence in the SBC to any hot button issue that he happens to be fixated on at the moment. However, it does a good job of documenting many of the quirks of the alignment of conservative Evangelicals with the Republican party, despite the latter's inconsistency in policy and practice with most of what Evangelicals believe. But I think what is happening, visible in the SBC of late, is that many of the current generation of leaders weren't as connected to the conservative, activist type politics of the 70's and 80's, and are seeing the inconsistency between a conservative approach to interpretation of the Bible, and the outcomes of conservative, tea-party type politics, and are coming down on the side of their Biblical perspective.

It's interesting to see the perspective and characterization of support. Evangelicals turned out at the polls in record numbers in 2012, despite the moaning about all of them staying home. The percentages look high, 89% supported Romney, for example, but those figures generally put African American evangelicals in a different statistical category of "historically black" denominations. Trump appears to be getting between 35% and 45% of Evangelical support, maybe a shade higher which, while strange, is nowhere near the levels that any Republican before him, back to Reagan, had.
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Re: SBC Overwhelming in affirmation of Dr McKissic's resolut

Postby Sandy » Sun Jun 26, 2016 6:07 pm

KeithE wrote: It would be helpful however, if the SBC voted to be part of the New Baptist Covenant in terms of divorcing itself from an admitted racist foundation in 1845 (and yes I know the SBC has apologized for the 1845 foundation several years ago). Theological sameness should not override love and common missions.


From a polity perspective, the way it is set up, I don't think the SBC can vote to be part of another organization. That's a point of church independence and autonomy, that the denomination doesn't join organizations on behalf of its churches. It has, in the past, contributed financial support to organizations like the Baptist Joint Committee or the BWA, and had the privilege of electing trustees as part of that support, but technically is only a "partner" in those relationships, not a member of the organization itself. In terms of racial reconciliation, and an active approach that puts feet to its resolution regarding the repudiation of its racist past, the SBC seems to be well along in that department, and has a very strong and healthy relationship with the National Baptists, on what appears to be a much broader and more active scope than the New Baptist Covenant.
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Re: SBC Overwhelming in affirmation of Dr McKissic's resolut

Postby William Thornton » Sun Jun 26, 2016 7:12 pm

A good proportion of the SBC's new churches are ethnic/minority. I'm unclear on exactly what the NBC means to the CBF. Is it an event? A series of cooperative ventures? Any financial ties?
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Re: SBC Overwhelming in affirmation of Dr McKissic's resolut

Postby Sandy » Sun Jun 26, 2016 11:30 pm

William Thornton wrote:A good proportion of the SBC's new churches are ethnic/minority. I'm unclear on exactly what the NBC means to the CBF. Is it an event? A series of cooperative ventures? Any financial ties?


The only thing they have on their website are a few articles from their blog, noting when a NBC speaker appears at the general assembly. If it's in their budget, it is in a category of ministry that doesn't specifically identify it.

https://cbfblog.com/2016/06/24/exercise ... -baptists/
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Re: SBC Overwhelming in affirmation of Dr McKissic's resolut

Postby KeithE » Sun Jun 26, 2016 11:44 pm

Sandy said:
From a polity perspective, the way it is set up, I don't think the SBC can vote to be part of another organization. That's a point of church independence and autonomy, that the denomination doesn't join organizations on behalf of its churches. It has, in the past, contributed financial support to organizations like the Baptist Joint Committee or the BWA, and had the privilege of electing trustees as part of that support, but technically is only a "partner" in those relationships, not a member of the organization itself. In terms of racial reconciliation, and an active approach that puts feet to its resolution regarding the repudiation of its racist past, the SBC seems to be well along in that department, and has a very strong and healthy relationship with the National Baptists, on what appears to be a much broader and more active scope than the New Baptist Covenant.


The SBC rejection had nothing to do with SBC polity, or church autonomy, or necessarily racism, but pure political misalignment coupled with fear of ecumenism.

SBC officials reject Carter, unity talk, but not all Southern Baptists join chorus

Southern Baptist officials harshly rejected Jimmy Carter's effort to unite all Baptists in North America under a compassion agenda, calling the ambitious plan “voodoo ecumenism” and a thinly veiled Democratic strategy to woo values voters.

But other Southern Baptists, including some reform-minded younger conservatives, called the SBC response un-Christ-like and prejudicial criticism from “fundamentalist elites.”

On Jan. 9, leaders of 40 Baptist denominations and organizations in the United States and Canada — led by Carter and “cheered” on by Bill Clinton — announced a commitment to put aside social and theological differences to unite behind an agenda of compassionate ministry. The effort will begin with a Celebration of a New Baptist Covenant, a gathering set for January 2008.

The presence of two former Democratic presidents at the forefront of the ambitious plan triggered allegations that a political motive lurks behind the talk of Baptist unity.

SBC ethics official Richard Land said most Southern Baptists voted against Clinton and Carter, as well as failed presidential candidate Al Gore — all Baptist Democrats. “I suspect that Mr. Carter and Mr. Clinton are upset about that,” Land, president of the SBC's Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission, told the Atlanta Journal-Constitution.


It has turned out that the NBC has not given an ounce of political voting recommendations (unlike Richard Land’s SBC). It is true that the NBC gave voice to Al Gore’s global warming concerns in its inaugural Jan 2008 meeting (but I don’t call that primarily political, more scientific and heartfelt concern for people/earth from non-candidate Gore).
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Re: SBC Overwhelming in affirmation of Dr McKissic's resolut

Postby KeithE » Sun Jun 26, 2016 11:55 pm

Sandy wrote:
William Thornton wrote:A good proportion of the SBC's new churches are ethnic/minority. I'm unclear on exactly what the NBC means to the CBF. Is it an event? A series of cooperative ventures? Any financial ties?


The only thing they have on their website are a few articles from their blog, noting when a NBC speaker appears at the general assembly. If it's in their budget, it is in a category of ministry that doesn't specifically identify it.

https://cbfblog.com/2016/06/24/exercise ... -baptists/


To William’s question: From my involvement it seems that racial reconciliation along with joint ministry (as you say “cooperative ventures”) are the primary goals.

Sandy has not looked very deeply into the NBC website if he fails to see this.

And yes their are many financial ties. My CBF (now non-SBC) church contributes to the NBC (and did so when we were still in the SBC).
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Re: SBC Overwhelming in affirmation of Dr McKissic's resolut

Postby William Thornton » Mon Jun 27, 2016 5:44 am

KeithE wrote:

My CBF (now non-SBC) church contributes to the NBC (and did so when we were still in the SBC).


Interesting. Does this make you a dually affiliated church? Is the contribution to some specific project? Does the NBC claim a certain number of churches?
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Re: SBC Overwhelming in affirmation of Dr McKissic's resolut

Postby KeithE » Mon Jun 27, 2016 9:03 am

William Thornton wrote:
KeithE wrote:

My CBF (now non-SBC) church contributes to the NBC (and did so when we were still in the SBC).


Interesting. Does this make you a dually affiliated church? Is the contribution to some specific project? Does the NBC claim a certain number of churches?

I do not see the NBC as a denomination to be “aligned” with. At present we are CBF aligned (were dually aligned until the SBC kicked us out due to the same-sex marriage issue).

I just checked and we no longer give to the NBC (but I remember that we did near the time the NBC started and it was to their general fund best I can remember - don’t even know the amount but $500 is typical minimum to any ministry). We continue to give to the Baptist World Alliance ($2341 this year - factored account)

I have no idea if the NBC counts contributing churches or just money.
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Re: SBC Overwhelming in affirmation of Dr McKissic's resolut

Postby Sandy » Mon Jun 27, 2016 12:23 pm

KeithE wrote:Sandy has not looked very deeply into the NBC website if he fails to see this.


The website is very light on information. Other than what the speaker from NBC shares at the CBF assembly, I can't find much information about the partnership between the two organizations. http://newbaptistcovenant.org/ I do see that racial reconciliation and "joint ministry" are the goals. CBF has what appears to be a somewhat active partnership with NBC, but other than the articles about the partnership, there aren't many specifics.

You're right that the SBC probably wouldn't become involved in a partnership with the NBC, regardless of their position on joining an organization. But the churches are free to partner if they choose. I'm sure there are some that do. But there are other avenues for Southern Baptists to pursue racial reconciliation and to partner in ministry, and they are also choosing to go those routes. All of that is good, and it's not necessary for everyone to support the same organization or fly the same banner. While the label "Baptist" indicates much in common, one of the things they have in common, congregational polity and church independence, makes it hard to gather them all under one banner. Even among the groups listed as partners with the covenant on the wikipedia site aren't 100%, and generally are just a pass-through for funds or resources for those churches among them that are interested.
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Re: SBC Overwhelming in affirmation of Dr McKissic's resolut

Postby Ed Pettibone » Wed Jun 29, 2016 1:32 am

Ed: Just discovered this while at the CBF Assembly last week:

NBC Summit 2016
Journeying to Covenant Community

September 14-16, 2016
Downtown Hilton
255 Courtland St NE, Atlanta, GA
$125 General Registration Fee— $65 Registration Fee for Young Ministers (Under 35 years old)
-------------------------------------------------------
At the present I am planing to fly down. Trudy will be busy winding down things at Burnt Hills B.C.. Her last Sunday here will be Sept 25th.

BTW Sandy, this was also at the link you provided. Thanks!
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Re: SBC Overwhelming in affirmation of Dr McKissic's resolut

Postby KeithE » Wed Jun 29, 2016 12:25 pm

I may attend, depends on other demands.
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Re: SBC Overwhelming in affirmation of Dr McKissic's resolut

Postby Ed Pettibone » Wed Jun 29, 2016 5:59 pm

KeithE wrote:I may attend, depends on other demands.


Ed: The meeting hotel (HILTON) is sold out for those dates, I took a cheaper place nearby at less for 2 nights with free parking than one night at the Hillton.
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Re: SBC Overwhelming in affirmation of Dr McKissic's resolut

Postby Ed Pettibone » Tue Sep 20, 2016 10:38 am

Ed Pettibone wrote:
KeithE wrote:I may attend, depends on other demands.


Ed: The meeting hotel (HILTON) is sold out for those dates, I took a cheaper place nearby at less for 2 nights with free parking than one night at the Hillton.


Ed: My Bargain, turned out poorly.
Good bed, fair TV, No hangers in the closet, No breakfast, no hot water, no towels (heated water on the kitchenette hot plate) used their wash clothes to take a sponge bath, used one of my extra t-shirts for a towel. Checked out in the morning and went to a nice days in further out on MARTA (Same Price.) Had bought a marta pass at the Air Port, added about an hour a day to commute, not a great inconvenience. Atlanta is still one of my favorite cities.
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