Mohler Strikes Again

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Re: Mohler Strikes Again

Postby Haruo » Tue Mar 10, 2015 12:45 am

Mainline sounds like shooting up heroin.
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SBC rush to marriage/ NPR Tuesday afternoon

Postby Stephen Fox » Tue Mar 10, 2015 3:13 pm

The segment has been announced for All Things Considered. Certain to cause national alarm as young girls set aside for wedlock and occasion for boy's sin; a Baptist version of Mormon serial marriage except this time early and one on one.
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Re: Mohler Strikes Again

Postby Tim Bonney » Tue Mar 10, 2015 4:04 pm

Haruo wrote:Mainline sounds like shooting up heroin.


LOL, Hauro. I think the terminology pre-dates the drug reference. The other term sometimes used (with less positive connotations) is
Old-line. That sounds like a reference to phone line services for old people who have "fallen and can't get up." :D
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Re: Mohler Strikes Again

Postby John Sneed » Wed Mar 11, 2015 3:24 pm

Everything is doctrine. And Mohler is quite possibly the smartest man in the SBC.
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Re: Mohler Strikes Again

Postby Haruo » Wed Mar 11, 2015 3:33 pm

What sort of meaning is one to make of the assertion that love is doctrine?
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Re: Mohler Strikes Again

Postby Dave Roberts » Wed Mar 11, 2015 3:55 pm

Haruo wrote:What sort of meaning is one to make of the assertion that love is doctrine?

It's an effort to put love in words. The problem is that love only exists in deeds.
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Re: Mohler Strikes Again

Postby Ed Pettibone » Thu Mar 12, 2015 7:16 pm

Timothy Bonney wrote:You really do miss my points pretty badly at times Ed. Much of the time I think we are just talking at cross purposes or cross understandings even. Why on earth would I try to justify being a former SBCer?? I'd be more likely to try to justify why I was ever in the SBC in the first place. :roll:

And yes Ed, I recognize your unorthodox view of baptism that most American Baptists no longer accept. :wink: Two of the three ABC churches I pastored recognized non-immersion baptisms as valid. And that is in ABC-IN, a rather conservative region.

As to the use of the term "mainline denominations," I'm just used since the 1920s. Your denomination is in the list of the "seven sisters of the mainline" so I'm not sure why you don't like it. (Or maybe that is why you don't like it?)
I do not dis like the term Mainline in particular. I just does not fit The ABC-USA in 2015. Also I think some of the other denominations are stretching by such a claim.

Ed: Tim I read your "points", I do not miss them, simply do not agree, But you are right much of the time we talk at cross purposes. I did not say that you try to justify being a former SBCer . Read it again "I think some former SBC pastors who work hard at justifying their move, have done more damage to the name Baptist than has the SBC itself." Why else would you spend so much time explaining to Baptist why you are no longer one of us.

Tim, we do not speak the same ecclesiastical language. And I have no real respect for your interpretation of Baptist orthodoxy on baptism or other doctrines.

Because you preceded me out of the SBC into the ABC-USA, and your experience on the general board, there was a time when I respected your evaluations of the ABC-USA but since then, I have gained experience in four ABC-Churches, and two regions (Ohio and NYS) NYS is synonymous with Up-State NY, there are also two city regions in the state. Ours which is bordered by New Hampshire, Massachusetts. New Jersey, NYC, Canada and Pennsylvanian, is is the 2nd largest region in the denomination. Since coming to NY state in 2002 My wife has pastored in two associations and I have served on the ABC-NYS Board of missions as a Representative of each association for a total of 7 years, and have two years to go with the Capital Area association. I have also attended 4 of the last 6 ABC-USA Biennials. We missed California and Porto Rico. We also participated in last years celebration of 400 years of Baptist Foreign Missions held at the Green Lake conference center with all of our missionaries. I also serve on the Capital area Enhancement Team and meet regularly in one group of Capital Area Association ministers and another group with pastors from both CABA and Adirondack association. Therefor I believe I now have at least as much understanding of ABC-USA's faith and Practice in 2015, as you do. When you made your move I said both the the Methodist and Baptist had gained...
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Re: Mohler Strikes Again

Postby Jon Estes » Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:44 am

I would disagree with Mohler on this. The church is not the primary institution to teach and raise children in the things of the Lord. It is the home and from my perch in the nose bleed section,the Christian home is failing at raising God fearing children. I also think the reason for this is because the parent themselves have no clue how to live for Jesus and walk in the fear of the Lord. To many people in the pews seem to have the mindset (IMPO) that they are going to heaven, nothing else matters. I fear they may be wrong.

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Re: Mohler Strikes Again

Postby Dave Roberts » Thu Mar 19, 2015 7:23 am

All of this emerged because Mohler saw from the church's website that FBC Elkin affiliated with CBF. He had to go in attack mode because it was no longer an SBC church, so he created a new doctrine--the church is responsible for keeping all her children Baptist (or at least evangelical).
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Re: Mohler Strikes Again

Postby Tim Bonney » Thu Mar 19, 2015 7:47 am

Ed, I'm sure that as I'm out of the ABC for years to come I'll lose touch with things. But it has only been five years and I still have connections in the denomination. If the ABC has changed drastically since 2010 I'd be surprised.

As to baptism, I wasn't making a personal judgement about Baptist orthodoxy. I was pointing out the doctrinal viewpoint of all the denominations who didn't adopt what they would seen as the new fangled idea in the 17th century that you have to be dunked and already a believer to be baptized.

Orthodoxy is really a slippery word which I'm surprised Baptists like Al Mohler use. By definition orthodoxy is right belief. If you are in the minority you aren't orthodox (which is what is wrong with the terminology). And while Southern Baptists like to pretend they are in the majority as the largest non-Catholic denomination in the US they are far outnumbered by Roman Catholics and the Orthodox Churches world wide.

Mohler trumpets about orthodoxy while he is in a denomination the the majority of Christiandom considers to be outside of orthodoxy. To anyone but a Southern Baptist it is amusing or at least confusing.

The best I get from Mohler is that orthodoxy="what I believe" or "what the SBC takeover crowd believes" and heresy="whatever anyone else believes who disagree with me."

My orthodoxy is your heresy. :wink:
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Re: Mohler Strikes Again

Postby Ed Pettibone » Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:51 pm

Timothy Bonney wrote:Ed, I'm sure that as I'm out of the ABC for years to come I'll lose touch with things. But it has only been five years and I still have connections in the denomination. If the ABC has changed drastically since 2010 I'd be surprised.

As to baptism, I wasn't making a personal judgement about Baptist orthodoxy. I was pointing out the doctrinal viewpoint of all the denominations who didn't adopt what they would seen as the new fangled idea in the 17th century that you have to be dunked and already a believer to be baptized.

Orthodoxy is really a slippery word which I'm surprised Baptists like Al Mohler use. By definition orthodoxy is right belief. If you are in the minority you aren't orthodox (which is what is wrong with the terminology). And while Southern Baptists like to pretend they are in the majority as the largest non-Catholic denomination in the US they are far outnumbered by Roman Catholics and the Orthodox Churches world wide.

Mohler trumpets about orthodoxy while he is in a denomination the the majority of Christiandom considers to be outside of orthodoxy. To anyone but a Southern Baptist it is amusing or at least confusing.

The best I get from Mohler is that orthodoxy="what I believe" or "what the SBC takeover crowd believes" and heresy="whatever anyone else believes who disagree with me."

My orthodoxy is your heresy. :wink:


Ed: I am in agreement that Al's idea of things Baptist are sometimes of his own creation coming after his conversion to Calvinism. You know he has to be out in far far right field when Jon E. disagrees with him. :wink: I am appreciating the new Jon more as time goes on. But he needs to be careful or he may end up on C.B.'s list. :roll:

And of course Tim, the concept of being a non Catholic Christian was something of a newfangled in 1519 just under 100 years before Baptist came on the scene and it was more than another 100 years before Methodism was conceived. And as I think you know Baptist started out with effusion, and after deeper study of the scriptures reverted to immersion following what they saw as the the lead of the earliest followers of Christ.

BTW, as I have said often, So. Baptist are indeed the largest single group of Baptist, however they are not the majority of all Baptist.

And I agree, ABC-USA has not changed a lot since you departed and I have not suggested that we have. I simply think I have been one ( an ABCer) long enough now and have gained enough experience to evaluate your criticisms of baptist better than when you had been in ABC considerably longer than I. And I am now convinced that in your ABC tenure you failed to recognize the breadth diversity as pertains to ideology and practice. I am not sure how that happened with your being in Indiana with two regions that exemplify the differences to a large extent. NYS-ABC is different from either Rochester-Genesee and NYC regions also. We serve vastly different constituencies .
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Re: Mohler Strikes Again

Postby Tim Bonney » Thu Mar 19, 2015 4:36 pm

Ed Pettibone wrote: And I am now convinced that in your ABC tenure you failed to recognize the breadth diversity as pertains to ideology and practice. I am not sure how that happened with your being in Indiana with two regions that exemplify the differences to a large extent. NYS-ABC is different from either Rochester-Genesee and NYC regions also. We serve vastly different constituencies .


Even though I was involved nationally, I have only pastored in the Midwest, though Iowans think Indiana is an Eastern state. :D So I'm sure there are parts of the ABC that I did not have experience in even knowing people from a lot of parts of the country.

But I also do get the impression that you and I have had a different experience of ABC life at the local church level for whatever reason. I think it is fair to say that everyone looks at their own faith experience through their own lenses.

But just as an example on the baptism issue, when FBC Rushville was discussing changing their baptismal policy to recognize those baptized in another denomination by other modes etc. one of the questions they ask me what other churches in the region had a similar policy I could point to quite a few, particularly in the ABC-Indianapolis Region.

I also pointed out that the requirement for being a Biennial Delegate including immersion had been dropped I believe in the 1960s.

So a modification of expectations on baptism started long before you and I were in the ABC. Two of the three ABC churches I pastored accepted baptism by sprinkling and infant baptism if the individual had also been confirmed in their previous church as valid for church membership. In one case that was my idea to encourage it, in another church came to the idea all on their own.
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Re: Mohler Strikes Again

Postby Ed Pettibone » Fri Mar 20, 2015 1:50 pm

Timothy Bonney wrote:
Ed Pettibone wrote: And I am now convinced that in your ABC tenure you failed to recognize the breadth diversity as pertains to ideology and practice. I am not sure how that happened with your being in Indiana with two regions that exemplify the differences to a large extent. NYS-ABC is different from either Rochester-Genesee and NYC regions also. We serve vastly different constituencies .


Even though I was involved nationally, I have only pastored in the Midwest, though Iowans think Indiana is an Eastern state. :D So I'm sure there are parts of the ABC that I did not have experience in even knowing people from a lot of parts of the country.

But I also do get the impression that you and I have had a different experience of ABC life at the local church level for whatever reason. I think it is fair to say that everyone looks at their own faith experience through their own lenses.

But just as an example on the baptism issue, when FBC Rushville was discussing changing their baptismal policy to recognize those baptized in another denomination by other modes etc. one of the questions they ask me what other churches in the region had a similar policy I could point to quite a few, particularly in the ABC-Indianapolis Region.

I also pointed out that the requirement for being a Biennial Delegate including immersion had been dropped I believe in the 1960s.

So a modification of expectations on baptism started long before you and I were in the ABC. Two of the three ABC churches I pastored accepted baptism by sprinkling and infant baptism if the individual had also been confirmed in their previous church as valid for church membership. In one case that was my idea to encourage it, in another church came to the idea all on their own.


Ed: I am well aware that many ABC Churches do not require baptism for membership or will at least accept what other faith communities practice that does not mean that they follow the biblical model. Each of the six ABC churches we have been in, have had members who had not been Baptized by immersion, however during our time in those churches all new members who had nor previously been Baptized by immersion, where immersed when they joined those churches. In fact Trudy has baptized a few longtime members of three of those churches when they asked for it. As I have tried to say many time I am not particularly impressed by what large numbers of other folk do.

And when you say "But just as an example on the baptism issue, when FBC Rushville was discussing changing their baptismal policy to recognize those baptized in another denomination by other modes etc. one of the questions they ask me what other churches in the region had a similar policy I could point to quite a few, particularly in the ABC-Indianapolis Region."

Do I need to remind you that the "City Regions" of ABC are generally further to the left of the larger mixed urban/rural regions? By the way, was Rushville in the Indiana/Kentucky region or the Indianapolis region? ABCNYS is mostly made up of "Up State churches" but we do have at least one church that is physically located in the NYC region. Their Pastor serves with me on the NYS Board of Missions. And of course "Evergreen" the Region Hauro is in has churches from states nowhere close to Seattle where they are headquartered. As do Cleavland and Rochester - Gennesee. As you say these alignments where established before either you or I moved into the ABC-USA. Have you run into anything similar since moving to the UMC?
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Re: Mohler Strikes Again

Postby Tim Bonney » Sat Mar 21, 2015 11:23 am

Ed Pettibone wrote:And when you say "But just as an example on the baptism issue, when FBC Rushville was discussing changing their baptismal policy to recognize those baptized in another denomination by other modes etc. one of the questions they ask me what other churches in the region had a similar policy I could point to quite a few, particularly in the ABC-Indianapolis Region.

Do I need to remind you that the "City Regions" of ABC are generally further to the left of the larger mixed urban/rural regions? By the way, was Rushville in the Indiana/Kentucky region or the Indianapolis region? ABCNYS is mostly made up of "Up State churches" but we do have at least one church that is physically located in the NYC region. Their Pastor serves with me on the NYS Board of Missions. And of course "Evergreen" the Region Hauro is in has churches from states nowhere close to Seattle where they are headquartered. As do Cleavland and Rochester - Gennesee. As you say these alignments where established before either you or I moved into the ABC-USA. Have you run into anything similar since moving to the UMC?


Rushville is just outside ABC Indianapolis Region Ed. Some people in Rushville actually commute to Indy for work. There are churches in both regions that do not require rebaptism. And yes, most of them are at least in larger towns and cities.

You would say cities are "more liberal" I would suggest that often city churches are more up on latest developments often having women pastors first, trying new programs first, and generally making changes first. You can call that liberal, I generally call that progress. I like small town churches and have pastored several. But often small town churches are more isolated from their denomination and are most resistance to change of any kind.

Also in Indiana conservative/liberal is a more north and central Indiana versus southern Indiana. The southern part of the state is more conservative for American Baptists.

As to the UMC, there are certainly regional differences. Northern and Southern Methodists got back together in 1939. But Methodists in the SE and South Jurisdictions are more conservative generally than the rest of the denomination while the NE Jurisdiction and the Western Jurisdictions are our most liberal. The upper midwest (North Central Jurisdiction) is fairly middle of the road.
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Re: Mohler Strikes Again

Postby Ed Pettibone » Mon Mar 23, 2015 3:24 am

Timothy Bonney wrote:
Ed Pettibone wrote:And when you say "But just as an example on the baptism issue, when FBC Rushville was discussing changing their baptismal policy to recognize those baptized in another denomination by other modes etc. one of the questions they ask me what other churches in the region had a similar policy I could point to quite a few, particularly in the ABC-Indianapolis Region.

Do I need to remind you that the "City Regions" of ABC are generally further to the left of the larger mixed urban/rural regions? By the way, was Rushville in the Indiana/Kentucky region or the Indianapolis region? ABCNYS is mostly made up of "Up State churches" but we do have at least one church that is physically located in the NYC region. Their Pastor serves with me on the NYS Board of Missions. And of course "Evergreen" the Region Hauro is in has churches from states nowhere close to Seattle where they are headquartered. As do Cleavland and Rochester - Gennesee. As you say these alignments where established before either you or I moved into the ABC-USA. Have you run into anything similar since moving to the UMC?


Rushville is just outside ABC Indianapolis Region Ed. Some people in Rushville actually commute to Indy for work. There are churches in both regions that do not require rebaptism. And yes, most of them are at least in larger towns and cities.

You would say cities are "more liberal" I would suggest that often city churches are more up on latest developments often having women pastors first, trying new programs first, and generally making changes first. You can call that liberal, I generally call that progress. I like small town churches and have pastored several. But often small town churches are more isolated from their denomination and are most resistance to change of any kind.

Also in Indiana conservative/liberal is a more north and central Indiana versus southern Indiana. The southern part of the state is more conservative for American Baptists.

I like small town churches and have pastored several. But often small town churches are more isolated from their denomination and are most resistance to change of any kind.

As to the UMC, there are certainly regional differences. Northern and Southern Methodists got back together in 1939. But Methodists in the SE and South Jurisdictions are more conservative generally than the rest of the denomination while the NE Jurisdiction and the Western Jurisdictions are our most liberal. The upper midwest (North Central Jurisdiction) is fairly middle of the road.



Ed: Tim you do not need to lecture me on Indiana geography or social structure I traveled the entire state for three years and the northern half of the state for 6 plus years, was born and raised in the NE part of the state and lived in the S. Central (Jeffersonville) for a year while in School at SBTS, managed Employment Security Division office in Lawrenceburg (also on the Ohio river) for just over two years. That was only 58miles SE of Rushville, Also a Shoe Stores in Rushville had one of the best orthopedic shoe builders in the country. I helped them write an on the job training contract, for state to reimbursement to them for training an underemployed young man in order to expand their business .

Where do you get the Idea that I would say cities are "more liberal" while you would suggest that often city churches are more up on latest developments often having women pastors first, trying new programs first, and generally making changes first? You can call that liberal, I generally call that progress.

Again you are attempting to put words in my mouth. As for city churches being first to have women pastors, that has not been my experience in Upstate NY. Here, truth be told small churches have been the first to accept women pastors because generally it is women who are willing to accept the lesser salaries that small churches pay. Often they are retired from teaching, nursing or other occupations. And Tim being married to female pastor I hardly call having women pastors being liberal. And I do not know that large churches in cities are any more willing to try new programs first, but it may be they get more attention from associational, regional (State) leadership who are often the front line in promoting such programs.

I do not consider cities to be more "liberal" than are rural areas. But I do believe the more progressive youth tend to be quicker to relocate from the farm or small town to the city. BTW, I do not equate liberal and progressive.

Ed: And Tim I will agree that ABC-Churches in the Southern third of Indiana tend to be some what more conservative than from South Bend to Columbus But the city of Columbus in the south is more liberal than say the city of Kokomo which is 48 miles north of Indy. However The somewhat more conservative bent of ABC churches in the southern part has to do with their perceived "call" to help train ministerial students from SBTS.

But again we have strayed from the thread topic.
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Re: Mohler Strikes Again

Postby Tim Bonney » Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:43 pm

Ed Pettibone wrote:

Where do you get the Idea that I would say cities are "more liberal" while you would suggest that often city churches are more up on latest developments often having women pastors first, trying new programs first, and generally making changes first? You can call that liberal, I generally call that progress.


Probably this sentence Ed.

Do I need to remind you that the "City Regions" of ABC are generally further to the left of the larger mixed urban/rural regions?


More city, more liberal. That seems to be what you were saying above.

And Tim being married to female pastor I hardly call having women pastors being liberal.


That is because you are married to her Ed. If you talk to most SBCers they'd say having a woman pastor was "liberal." When churches in the ABC refused to have women in the pulpit it was conservative churches that refused to do so, not liberal churches. I know you pretty much hate anything "liberal" but most conservative Christians consider having a woman pastor a "liberal" thing to do.

And I do not know that large churches in cities are any more willing to try new programs first, but it may be they get more attention from associational, regional (State) leadership who are often the front line in promoting such programs.


My experience in the midwest Ed is that small town churches and small towns and smaller cities are more conservative than city churches and larger cities. This is certainly true of my experience in Iowa, Missouri, and Indiana.

I do not consider cities to be more "liberal" than are rural areas.


Then your experiences and mine have been totally different.

Ed: And Tim I will agree that ABC-Churches in the Southern third of Indiana tend to be some what more conservative than from South Bend to Columbus But the city of Columbus in the south is more liberal than say the city of Kokomo which is 48 miles north of Indy. However The somewhat more conservative bent of ABC churches in the southern part has to do with their perceived "call" to help train ministerial students from SBTS.


ABC churches in southern Indiana dropped helping SBTS church years ago when SBTS started charging ABC students as non-Baptists. I was in Indiana on the Region Board when that happened probably a good 15 years ago. I think some of what you are basing things on is kind of old info Ed.

Also Ed, Kokomo and Columbus are almost small towns both are under 50,000 in populace. When I'm talking cities I'm talking bigger cities or urban centers and metro areas with a population of 100,000 or more. I was not thinking of small cities under 50,000 when I said cities were more liberal. After all, Rushville is a city with 5,000 people in it. I was thinking cities as in St. Louis, Indy, Chicago, Kansas City, Omaha, Des Moines. That is what I mean by "city." Sioux City and its environs barely qualify with only about 160,000 people in the metro area.
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Re: Mohler Strikes Again

Postby Jerry_B » Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:50 pm

I'm shocked, shocked I tell you, Mohler doesn't think Anglicans and Catholics can be fully grounded in the Christian faith. Small step for a self proclaimed gatekeeper of "correct doctrine".

Intreetingly enough, had all those kiddos stuck around, Mohler would have never been appointed president of Southern. Now that's a real missed opportunity!
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Re: Mohler Strikes Again

Postby Ed Pettibone » Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:56 pm

Timothy Bonney wrote:
Ed Pettibone wrote:

Where do you get the Idea that I would say cities are "more liberal" while you would suggest that often city churches are more up on latest developments often having women pastors first, trying new programs first, and generally making changes first? You can call that liberal, I generally call that progress.


Probably this sentence Ed.

Do I need to remind you that the "City Regions" of ABC are generally further to the left of the larger mixed urban/rural regions?


More city, more liberal. That seems to be what you were saying above.

Ed: Again Tim you have misread with your own presupposition. What I said was "Do I need to remind you that the "City Regions" of ABC are generally further to the left of the larger mixed urban/rural regions?'

"And Tim being married to female pastor I hardly call having women pastors being liberal."

Tim: That is because you are married to her Ed. If you talk to most SBCers they'd say having a woman pastor was "liberal." When churches in the ABC refused to have women in the pulpit it was conservative churches that refused to do so, not liberal churches. I know you pretty much hate anything "liberal" but most conservative Christians consider having a woman pastor a "liberal" thing to do.

Ed: :lol: Again Tim you do not know what you are taking about. There was never a time when I did not support WIM, My Mother was licensed in another denomination in 1941.

When Trudy and I met and until we had been married for 10 years before she even considered becoming a pastor. We where married in Jan of 1991, From the time she went back to college in 1992, until she accepted an M.A. from Hebrew Union in 2001 rather than staying on to finnish their Ph.D., and even latter, she had no intention of becoming a pastor. She had planned to teach Hebrew and OT In a religious Studies program in a State University such USF where she graduated Summa Cum Laude in 95. At SBTS she was in the M.Div. in Higher Education track and she had no preaching classes. When she took her first full time paid Church ministry position in 2001, it was as Minister of Education. It was at that ABC church that despite her having said from the first contact that she did not preach, about four months in the pastor suddenly announced that she was scheduled to preach at their Back of the Track Ministry in two weeks. She very reluctantly accepted his mandate. A few weeks latter she came home fuming because Dr. Jim had "done it again". He had scheduled her to preach both services at the church in two weeks because he had been invited to preach elsewhere for a LARGE audience. To cool her down I offered to take her out to buy a "Preaching Suit". After the first Sermon that Sunday I knew I was married to a preacher. At lunch she said "Ed I think I need to do some serious praying and fasting for reexamination of my position of Women in Ministry especially as it pertains to preaching. At the end of 6 months she resigned from that Church and we went back to Lakeside and Pastor Tim Turlly put her to work again as an unpaid Minister of Education. Some moths later more comfortable with the Idea of women in ministry but still questioning her own call she put out a fleece She applied to Interim Ministries of ABC-USA. In a short time, we both went to Green Lake for Interim Ministry Training. And not long after that she was assigned to a church here in Upstate NY. Several things there confirmed her call and she Submitted her Profile to ABC-USA. After a few interviews she accepted the call of the North Creek & Minerva Parish in the Adirondacks. After just more than 6 years she accepted the call to the church where she is now pastor. In addition to pastoring she does a lot of writing In the past couple years she has had 3 books published.

prior post Ed: And I do not know that large churches in cities are any more willing to try new programs first, but it may be they get more attention from associational, regional (State) leadership who are often the front line in promoting such programs. ]

Tim: My experience in the midwest Ed is that small town churches and small towns and smaller cities are more conservative than city churches and larger cities. This is certainly true of my experience in Iowa, Missouri, and Indiana.

Ed: do not consider cities to be more "liberal" than are rural areas.

Tim: Then your experiences and mine have been totally different.

Ed: Tim, I will agree that ABC-Churches in the Southern third of Indiana tend to be some what more conservative than from South Bend to Columbus But the city of Columbus in the south is more liberal than say the city of Kokomo which is 48 miles north of Indy. However The somewhat more conservative bent of ABC churches in the southern part has to do with their perceived "call" to help train ministerial students from SBTS.

Tin writes: ABC churches in southern Indiana dropped helping SBTS church years ago when SBTS started charging ABC students as non-Baptists. I was in Indiana on the Region Board when that happened probably a good 15 years ago. I think some of what you are basing things on is kind of old info Ed.

Also Ed, Kokomo and Columbus are almost small towns both are under 50,000 in populace. When I'm talking cities I'm talking bigger cities or urban centers and metro areas with a population of 100,000 or more. I was not thinking of small cities under 50,000 when I said cities were more liberal. After all, Rushville is a city with 5,000 people in it. I was thinking cities as in St. Louis, Indy, Chicago, Kansas City, Omaha, Des Moines. That is what I mean by "city." Sioux City and its environs barely qualify with only about 160,000 people in the metro area.

Ed: Uh Tim Kokomo is Fifty Six thousand plus, true Columbus is only around 46,000. In Indiana they both qualify as 2nd class cities while Rushville is a third class city. Indianapolis is the only first class city in the state. I believe you will find most of the cities on your list plus many more are generally recognized as mega-plexus . I have lived in a few, Indy, Cincinnati, Louisville, Columbia SC, Tampa and Birmingham. The NY Capital area where we now live almost fits with Albany, Schenectady, Scotia, Troy, Latham, Collinie And several smaller towns where one may not know when they leave one and enter another.
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Re: Mohler Strikes Again

Postby Mike Stidham » Mon Apr 20, 2015 1:14 pm

Sandy wrote:
KeithE wrote:Guess he has to blame the attendance loss in the SBC to something. God certainly would not have pre-destined such losses (oh wait, He must have).


Be that as it may, I think a lot of denominations, like the Methodists, D of C, UCC, ELCA, TEC, and PCUSA would put "Baptist" on their sign and baptize by immersion if they could reduce their membership and attendance losses to the size of that now being experienced by the SBC.


Nope. After spending two years in a UCC seminary, "Southern Baptist" is dog-whistle for oppressive, patriarchal, anti-gay, anti-everything. They would NEVER do so...especially the DoC whose leaders split from a Kentucky Baptist association over the meaning of immersion baptism!

I got so tired of the "Evil-gelical" rhetoric that I transferred to a General Baptist seminary to finish my M. Div.
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Re: Mohler Strikes Again

Postby Mike Stidham » Mon Apr 20, 2015 1:20 pm

Timothy Bonney wrote:
The best I get from Mohler is that orthodoxy="what I believe" or "what the SBC takeover crowd believes" and heresy="whatever anyone else believes who disagree with me."

My orthodoxy is your heresy. :wink:


Actually, Tim, as an Arminian United Methodist, your orthodoxy WOULD be Mohler's heresy. If you dig a little deeper into Mohler and his cohorts, "orthodoxy" and/or "Gospel (TM)" = "Calvinism". :wall:
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