Number 15 Calvinists accuse Lifeway of Heresy

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Number 15 Calvinists accuse Lifeway of Heresy

Postby Stephen Fox » Tue Dec 30, 2014 5:15 pm

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Re: Number 15 Calvinists accuse Lifeway of Heresy

Postby Haruo » Wed Dec 31, 2014 12:38 am

Stephen Fox wrote:http://baptistnews.com/ministry/organizations/item/29674-twitter-post-sparks-hashtag-war-with-lifeway-sbc-elite

Had no idea SBC seminaries and seminarians were anticatholic in the rabid sense.
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Re: Number 15 Calvinists accuse Lifeway of Heresy

Postby William Thornton » Wed Dec 31, 2014 8:29 am

Read the anticatholic quote in the context of the 19th century attitudes that prevail. No news there.

And not much news in the rest of the story either. Bob Allen conjures up a piece in a slow news period.

Not mentioned in the story:

1. J. D. Hall is an unreformed flamethrower who bullied online the teenage son of a controversial SBC leader. The kid later committed suicide. While the causes for the tragedy are many and complex, Hall's standing and credibility were completely squandered by the incident. This colors every syllable Hall writes.

2. LifeWay is continually criticized for books they sell. It's a sport among SBCers.

3. Stetzer has more cred in his little finger than Hall and the other guy Allen quotes combined.

4. The SBC is well known these days for Cal/Non-Cal conflict. Nothing new here.
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Re: Number 15 Calvinists accuse Lifeway of Heresy

Postby Sandy » Wed Dec 31, 2014 10:26 am

The SBC's institutions have always been run by "elites" from a relatively exclusive inner circle of people who work to get well-connected. And there have always been groups, like the #15 Calvinists, who are working at being the insider elites. Hall's writing makes him sound like he's miffed about not being an insider.

Haruo wrote:Had no idea SBC seminaries and seminarians were anticatholic in the rabid sense.


There are "rabid" anti-Catholics in most Protestant and Evangelical groups. Most Southern Baptists, particularly the seminary-educated, are not. And while I would, by personal conviction, not recognize the Pope as the "vicar of Christ", or the Petrine succession, or his authority as "head of the church," I do recognize his authority as the leader of the world's Catholics. I think the Catholic church puts far too much stock in its own tradition, and has a lot of baggage it has brought into the practice of Christianity, more than Protestants only because they've been at it for a longer time.

What denomination has successfully unified its people on every issue? And with Lifeway's broad market among Evangelicals, its unlikely that a small group like this will affect sales.
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Hall and Criswell

Postby Stephen Fox » Wed Dec 31, 2014 11:54 am

As I read Criswell of the 60s in Wuthnow's Rough Country, I can't see much difference between his Highness the Godfather of Fundamentalism in the SBC and a fluke like Hall. Both are flakes, one just happens to be sainted/knighted as the Templar of the so-called "conservative resurgence"!
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Re: Hall and Criswell

Postby William Thornton » Wed Dec 31, 2014 2:17 pm

Stephen Fox wrote:As I read Criswell of the 60s in Wuthnow's Rough Country, I can't see much difference between his Highness the Godfather of Fundamentalism in the SBC and a fluke like Hall. Both are flakes, one just happens to be sainted/knighted as the Templar of the so-called "conservative resurgence"!


Then you are not very smart, Stephen. You can do better than this. Try andther drive by.
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mORE THAN A DRIVE BY

Postby Stephen Fox » Wed Dec 31, 2014 2:59 pm

An informed comment educated and enlightened by Wuthnow and the Thomas Powers review. The enlighteded consensus will be with me when enough folks read Powers and Wuthnow and testify a fair reading thereof
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Re: Number 15 Calvinists accuse Lifeway of Heresy

Postby Kai Steppan » Sun Sep 06, 2015 2:43 pm

I can imagine there a few main-reasons for anti-catholic attitude in protestant/evangelical, or non-catholic communities and churches in general.

The rise of many christian denominations is based widely on the reformers Martin Luther, Calvin, Zwingli...
There have been reforming movements in the catholic church before the reformers, but they were not that known and successful.

I`m not very familiar with the writings of Calvin and Zwingli, but as far as i know, Martin Luther was one of the first persons ever to propagate ideas that are still today the core-values of a lot of denominations.
For example the right for every human to read the bible in his own language and to interpret what he read.
The right to teach what he`s finding and experiencing in the bible.
Or the believe that one can not receive justification by works, but only by the free grace of god.

Of course after Luther there have been many developments in the christian world, but on his theologicals writings many denominations are based even today.

And the "enemy", if you want to call it that way, was the catholical church, which taught (and still teach in parts):

You need to learn latin, greek and hebrew to read and understand the bible.
You can`t found your own community or church, there is only ONE real church - our catholic church! All other churches are wrong.
The pope is the boss, god`s representative on earth.
For sins you don`t need to talk with god, just go to your local pastor, tell him and he will give you absolution.

Plus there have been a lot of persecutions in history by catholic church against other denominations.
Including baptists, as far as i know.


In some elemental matters, there is a great difference between the values of non-catholic denominations and their understanding of christian religion on the one hand and the catholic creeds.

For me it is not very surprising that there are different grades of reluctance in non-catholic denominations, in baptist communities/churches...

"On the street" it`s maybe a different thing, it is surely possible to get along with your catholic neighbour or with the local catholic priest and his community, why not.
But it would be difficult to get along for a non-catholic church with the catholic church on higher levels.
For one side would have to throw away many of it`s core-values.
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Re: Number 15 Calvinists accuse Lifeway of Heresy

Postby Haruo » Mon Sep 07, 2015 4:22 pm

Kai, are you familiar with the "Lima liturgy"?

Here is a WCC document on it. It has often been used successfully for eucharistic services with both Protestant and Catholic participants and officiants, at least in the Christian Esperanto movement.
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Re: Number 15 Calvinists accuse Lifeway of Heresy

Postby Kai Steppan » Tue Sep 08, 2015 2:28 am

Hey Haruo.

No, i am not familiar with the Lima liturgy yet, but will have a look on it, thank you!

One thought of mine: When you say it`s popular/was used in Christian Esperanto Movement, one can find a reason in the language.
The language, as far as i know, has a great influence on people`s way to think and on culture, it is connected to certain cultures.

English is more connected to the "western world" and while there could be certainly a native american of Alasca speaking Chinese, peopele connecting that language to China and chinese culture.

It is similar in religious matters. When the (first) missionaries went to other countries from Europe, they had to deal for example with the problem that there were simply no words for some detailed parts of the gospel or the Old Testament.
So they had to translate.

And in the christian "homecountries", the language widely defined how people thought and think about christian believes. Or believes in general.
When more and more people were able to read, they were able to build there own thoughts and statements.

Esperanto maybe is not that a new language anymore, but new enough to provide a connecting base for different denominations. And it`s developing.
So i could imagine, that people in such a movement are more open to ecumenism, as you said.

Well, as i said before, "on the streets" it does not matter so much in most (western) places if one is catholic or baptist or a member of a pentecostal church. In daily life, we are humans and children of god at first and in my opinion he asks us to have respect and love for his other children as far as possible.
That does not mean to be completely indifferent, some practices in so-called "christian churches" hardly work with christian core values we learn in the bible and from Jesus.

But it would be my wish that the "real" christian communities in the world don`t look so much for what is deviding them (can one say that or is it "wrong english"? :D ) but for what is connecting them.
Christianity for me, among other values, is not so much about separating from other humans but about connecting and integrating.
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Re: Number 15 Calvinists accuse Lifeway of Heresy

Postby Tim Bonney » Tue Sep 08, 2015 8:33 am

Sandy, yes there is a lot of anti-catholic sentiment among evangelicals, no I've not see much anti-catholic sentiment since I left the SBC and got involved in other Protestant denominations. I didn't see much anti-catholic sentiment in the ABC/USA and I see very little anti-catholic sentiment in the UMC. And the anti-catholic sentiment I have seen is such that UMCers like Pope Francis quite a bit and wonder by the rest of the RCC doesn't just go along with him.
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