Houston Pastors subpoenaed

Discuss current news and trends taking place in the Southern Baptist Convention.

Moderator: William Thornton

Houston Pastors subpoenaed

Postby Stephen Fox » Thu Oct 16, 2014 5:16 pm

http://baptistnews.com/culture/social-i ... of-pastors

Welton Gaddy offers some perspective in this mess.

fundy preachers in Houston are having a field day with this one; as are their friends in the Tea Party and Charles Pickering's Alliance Defending Freedom not to mention Tony Perkins and Focus on the Family.

Bama Republicans see this issue like Ebola, as a gift for frenzy and fear mongering here on the eve of the Mid Term Elections.
"I'm the only sane {person} in here." Doyle Hargraves, Slingblade
"Midget, Broom; Helluva campaign". Political consultant, "Oh, Brother..."


http://www.foxofbama.blogspot.com or google asfoxseesit
Stephen Fox
 
Posts: 9003
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 9:29 pm

Fox News and Big Waax in Gadsden Alabama

Postby Stephen Fox » Thu Oct 16, 2014 5:56 pm

It has been widely reported is in this cabal in Houston the Lesbian Mayor is attempting to stifle.

Or you can check the website for the Alliance Defending Freedom or Focus on the Family
"I'm the only sane {person} in here." Doyle Hargraves, Slingblade
"Midget, Broom; Helluva campaign". Political consultant, "Oh, Brother..."


http://www.foxofbama.blogspot.com or google asfoxseesit
Stephen Fox
 
Posts: 9003
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 9:29 pm

Ed Young's product Ted Cruz and the Subpoena

Postby Stephen Fox » Thu Oct 16, 2014 6:27 pm

Cruz is a product of 2nd Baptist Houston Academy

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-Texa ... us-Liberty
"I'm the only sane {person} in here." Doyle Hargraves, Slingblade
"Midget, Broom; Helluva campaign". Political consultant, "Oh, Brother..."


http://www.foxofbama.blogspot.com or google asfoxseesit
Stephen Fox
 
Posts: 9003
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 9:29 pm

Re: Houston Pastors subpoenaed

Postby William Thornton » Thu Oct 16, 2014 7:38 pm

Find any source that names young in this or leave him out. This is silly name dropping.
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11814
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: Houston Pastors subpoenaed

Postby Sandy » Thu Oct 16, 2014 11:16 pm

This seems to be a case of having your cake and eating it too. These pastors are involved in a lawsuit against the city, so their sermons, personal communications, private conversations and any other words they've uttered about it are fair game. To restrict access is to deny the city due process in defending against the lawsuit. Of course, this is an excellent opportunity to try and make this sound like some conspiratorial attack on Christian faith. If they hadn't filed a lawsuit, there'd be no subpoena. Looks like the mayor may back down, in the face of the bullying, unfortunately, leaving these pastors to continue to think that they are above the law.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 8193
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:10 pm
Location: Rural Western Pennsylvania

Re: Houston Pastors subpoenaed

Postby Haruo » Fri Oct 17, 2014 1:41 am

So, did they exhaust the biblical means of adjudication before resorting to a lawsuit?
Haruo (呂須•春男) = ᎭᎷᎣ = Leland Bryant Ross
Repeal the language taxLearn and use Esperanto
Fremont Baptist ChurchMy hymnblog
User avatar
Haruo
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11702
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 8:21 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Houston Pastors subpoenaed

Postby William Thornton » Fri Oct 17, 2014 6:39 am

Sometimes Sandy is rather stubborn. The idea of the gummit demanding, on penalty of law (fines, jail time) sermons and communications between minister and congregants is red flag abhorrent to religious freedom, free exercise rights. The suit is not about the mayor but about church advocacy of what they saw as a moral public policy issue. Think of George Wallace doing the same in the 1960s towards black churches and ministers who attempted to energize their churches on the issue of civil rights. This is heavy handed gummit bullying of churches. The mayor and her tone deaf lawyers who prepared the subpoena should have understood how stupid their actions were.

Sandy's lame attempt to connect this with catholic pedophiles, a criminal activity, is ill-founded and transparently absurd. Political advocacy is not criminal. The goal of the subpoena was to bully and intimidate the mayor's opponents.

Even mod/libs see this for what it is:

Welton Gaddy, president of the Interfaith Alliance, said in an Oct. 15 letter that while he supports equal rights the LGBT community, it should not come at the expense of religious liberty.

“Subpoenaing the sermons of certain clergy because of their political, or even offensive, content sends a dangerous message to all clergy in Houston and across the country,” said Gaddy, pastor for preaching and worship at Northminster Church in Monroe, La.


Like I said. This is fun to watch.
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11814
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: Houston Pastors subpoenaed

Postby William Thornton » Fri Oct 17, 2014 6:43 am

Stephen find a source and offer a quote on your whipping boy or leave him out. It's quite simple.
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11814
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: Houston Pastors subpoenaed

Postby Dave Roberts » Fri Oct 17, 2014 6:56 am

William Thornton wrote:Stephen find a source and offer a quote on your whipping boy or leave him out. It's quite simple.


William, can't I drop 500 names on BL today? Wait, do I know 500 people? :?
"God will never be less than He is and does not need to be more" (John Koessler)

My blog: http://emporiadave.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Dave Roberts
Site Admin
 
Posts: 6965
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 2:01 pm
Location: Southside, VA

Re: Houston Pastors subpoenaed

Postby Sandy » Fri Oct 17, 2014 7:20 am

Don't want a subpoena? Don't file a lawsuit against a government entity to try to get an ordinance repealed. You can't hide behind religious freedom to try and win a lawsuit without due process provided and accorded to the other side. The city is entitled to gather evidence to present their case.

If they hadn't filed the lawsuit, then this would most certainly be a case of violating religious freedom, free speech, and even persecution, and, given the content of the issue, and the nature of the ordinance, I'd be outraged. But they did. And that changes everything. I don't care how unpopular it is, or whether religious liberals are bent out of shape, too, or even if the city looks like a bully in getting the subpoenas, if you're suing someone, your words and actions are evidence. Let the courts decide the issue fairly. Pushing this into the court of public opinion circumvents due process.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 8193
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:10 pm
Location: Rural Western Pennsylvania

Re: Houston Pastors subpoenaed

Postby Sandy » Fri Oct 17, 2014 7:36 am

Haruo wrote:So, did they exhaust the biblical means of adjudication before resorting to a lawsuit?


Good question. I'm guessing that the answer is no. There's been a lot of frustration among the shrinking conservative political element in Houston as the city government reflects a more liberal approach to politics, and the city's megachurch pastors haven't been able to gain traction and "reverse" the trend. So any political fuss they can get is welcome.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 8193
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:10 pm
Location: Rural Western Pennsylvania

Re: Houston Pastors subpoenaed

Postby William Thornton » Fri Oct 17, 2014 9:57 am

Sandy wrote:Don't want a subpoena? Don't file a lawsuit against a government entity to try to get an ordinance repealed. You can't hide behind religious freedom to try and win a lawsuit without due process provided and accorded to the other side. The city is entitled to gather evidence to present their case.

If they hadn't filed the lawsuit, then this would most certainly be a case of violating religious freedom, free speech, and even persecution, and, given the content of the issue, and the nature of the ordinance, I'd be outraged. But they did. And that changes everything. I don't care how unpopular it is, or whether religious liberals are bent out of shape, too, or even if the city looks like a bully in getting the subpoenas, if you're suing someone, your words and actions are evidence. Let the courts decide the issue fairly. Pushing this into the court of public opinion circumvents due process.


This is a loser sandy...but keep on digging.
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11814
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: Houston Pastors subpoenaed

Postby KeithE » Fri Oct 17, 2014 1:20 pm

William Thornton wrote:
Sandy wrote:Don't want a subpoena? Don't file a lawsuit against a government entity to try to get an ordinance repealed. You can't hide behind religious freedom to try and win a lawsuit without due process provided and accorded to the other side. The city is entitled to gather evidence to present their case.

If they hadn't filed the lawsuit, then this would most certainly be a case of violating religious freedom, free speech, and even persecution, and, given the content of the issue, and the nature of the ordinance, I'd be outraged. But they did. And that changes everything. I don't care how unpopular it is, or whether religious liberals are bent out of shape, too, or even if the city looks like a bully in getting the subpoenas, if you're suing someone, your words and actions are evidence. Let the courts decide the issue fairly. Pushing this into the court of public opinion circumvents due process.


This is a loser sandy...but keep on digging.

Underline mine.

I agree with Sandy.

Two forums are talking about this (and it is interesting).

Here are the PPP Forum discussions.
Informed by Data.
Driven by the SPIRIT and JESUS’s Example.
Promoting the Kingdom of GOD on Earth.
http://www.weatherly.org/discoverycenter
User avatar
KeithE
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8409
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:02 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: Houston Pastors subpoenaed

Postby Tim Bonney » Fri Oct 17, 2014 11:31 pm

Sandy,

I have to disagree that all political speech by pastors is wrong. I fully agree that partisan politics should not be promoted from the pulpit. But there are political issues that directly cross into territory that the Church sometimes needs to speak up about. When that happens the pastor has to answer to answer to God rather than the government. Remember is was the Sanhedrin, a government body, that told Peter to stop preaching the gospel. It was a government that crucified Jesus. It was a government that allowed discrimination against black people and that had to be changed in the civil rights movement.

Sometimes we have to speak up politically. When the government, the mayor, whoever starts going after people who are using their first amendment rights to speak we've got a problem.
Tim Bonney

First UMC of Indianola, Iowa - http://indfumc.org
My Blog - http://timbonney.com
User avatar
Tim Bonney
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5571
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:17 am
Location: Indianola, Iowa

Re: Houston Pastors subpoenaed

Postby Ed Pettibone » Sat Nov 01, 2014 6:00 pm

Timothy Bonney wrote:Sandy,

I have to disagree that all political speech by pastors is wrong. I fully agree that partisan politics should not be promoted from the pulpit. But there are political issues that directly cross into territory that the Church sometimes needs to speak up about. When that happens the pastor has to answer to answer to God rather than the government. Remember is was the Sanhedrin, a government body, that told Peter to stop preaching the gospel. It was a government that crucified Jesus. It was a government that allowed discrimination against black people and that had to be changed in the civil rights movement.

Sometimes we have to speak up politically. When the government, the mayor, whoever starts going after people who are using their first amendment rights to speak we've got a problem.


Ed: AMEN, Preach it Tim!
User avatar
Ed Pettibone
 
Posts: 11963
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:46 pm
Location: .Burnt Hills, New York, Capital Area

Re: Houston Pastors subpoenaed

Postby KeithE » Tue Nov 04, 2014 12:19 am

Timothy Bonney wrote:Sandy,

I have to disagree that all political speech by pastors is wrong. I fully agree that partisan politics should not be promoted from the pulpit. But there are political issues that directly cross into territory that the Church sometimes needs to speak up about. When that happens the pastor has to answer to answer to God rather than the government. Remember is was the Sanhedrin, a government body, that told Peter to stop preaching the gospel. It was a government that crucified Jesus. It was a government that allowed discrimination against black people and that had to be changed in the civil rights movement.

Sometimes we have to speak up politically. When the government, the mayor, whoever starts going after people who are using their first amendment rights to speak we've got a problem.

Definitively agree.

Separation between the institutions of state and institutions of the church should be maintained. And specific candidate endorsements should not be done by officials of a church and the state must show very good cause to meddle in the practice of religion (e.g. in cases where medical treatment is withheld).

But there is no need to separate political thinking from Christ’s teaching; in fact a Christian’s political opinions should be formed with Jesus’s teaching in mind.
Informed by Data.
Driven by the SPIRIT and JESUS’s Example.
Promoting the Kingdom of GOD on Earth.
http://www.weatherly.org/discoverycenter
User avatar
KeithE
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8409
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:02 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: Houston Pastors subpoenaed

Postby William Thornton » Tue Nov 04, 2014 7:46 am

I agree that pastors and churches should not endorse candidates because I think that to be a poor use of the pulpit and a waste of the moral expression of the church; however, such is left to the church rather than coerced by the state. Pastors and churches have a virtually absolute constitutional right to engage in political speech. The state has a right to grant or deny tax exemptions to contributions to churches on that basis, so long as they do not choose winners and losers in the exemptions.

All those incredibly brave, IRS defying, candidate endorsing pastors (sarcasm alert) are doing is jeopardizing future tax status of contributing members. They face no other consequence that those related to that.

What makes the Houson matter odious is that it is an expression of the oppressive, inexhaustible power of gummit heaped on a class of citizens and institutions in order to intimidate, silence, and harass. We should all fear, and object to, that.
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11814
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

OTOH

Postby Stephen Fox » Mon Nov 10, 2014 12:41 pm

While William has a salient point, recent readings on my part suggest the "Houston" pastors in light of what Bonhoeffer called the "politics of stupidity" could be more "odious" than the govenrment intrusion. At same time I am well aware of separation of church and state. I just don't see George W. Truett having much in common with the politics of the Houston pastors, Ed Young in particular.
"I'm the only sane {person} in here." Doyle Hargraves, Slingblade
"Midget, Broom; Helluva campaign". Political consultant, "Oh, Brother..."


http://www.foxofbama.blogspot.com or google asfoxseesit
Stephen Fox
 
Posts: 9003
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 9:29 pm

Re: OTOH

Postby Tim Bonney » Mon Nov 10, 2014 12:48 pm

Stephen Fox wrote:While William has a salient point, recent readings on my part suggest the "Houston" pastors in light of what Bonhoeffer called the "politics of stupidity" could be more "odious" than the govenrment intrusion. At same time I am well aware of separation of church and state. I just don't see George W. Truett having much in common with the politics of the Houston pastors, Ed Young in particular.


Separation of church and state mean nothing (as does religious freedom) if it is only provided for those who agree with the government or those who agree with you and me.
Tim Bonney

First UMC of Indianola, Iowa - http://indfumc.org
My Blog - http://timbonney.com
User avatar
Tim Bonney
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5571
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:17 am
Location: Indianola, Iowa


Return to SBC News and Trends

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest