Stephen Fox theory of SBC takeover vindicated

Discuss current news and trends taking place in the Southern Baptist Convention.

Moderator: William Thornton

Re: Stephen Fox theory of SBC takeover vindicated

Postby Sandy » Sun Oct 19, 2014 5:59 pm

Dave Roberts wrote:
Sandy wrote:
Interesting that William mentions Jackson, who was quite conservative himself, and was the one opposition candidate nominated by the moderates who actually came within a narrow margin of votes of winning. Jackson, though, was an inerrantist himself, but since he didn't really run in the conservative denominational political circles, moderates could count on his nominees to the committees. The fact that he didn't win is an indication, at least to me, that the people in the pews did have an understanding of the differences between the two sides. Moore, Honeycutt, Sherman, Vestal, all denied belief in inerrancy as it was characterized by the conservatives in the SBC, and crystallized in the BFM 2000, not the Chicago statement.


Sandy, I hope you realize two things about the BFM 2k. First, it is the most un-Baptist statement I have ever read. The preamble bills it as "a statement of doctrinal accountability." That makes it a creed. Okay, so I grew up in the mountains of VA where one of the themes of many preachers was "No book but the Bible; no creed but Christ." I simply can't swallow that phrasing. Second, I cannot swallow the removal of Christ as the standard by which all scripture is judged. I've heard all the arguments about the importance of taking that away because it was believed to provide a cover for moderates. Frankly, I've never seen the cover that provided. I preach from the Bible, but I do not preach the Bible. With the Apostle Paul I have chosen to stand preaching "Christ crucified."


First of all, the BFM doesn't remove Christ as the standard by which all scripture is judged, it clarifies the way that statement was often previously interpreted (If Jesus didn't say anything about it then it's not worth considering), pointing to Jesus as the object of all Biblical revelation which I see as a stronger "Jesus Criterion" than the 1963 version. As far as an instrument of accountability is concerned, a "creed" is binding on an ecclesiastical organization that includes local churches. This only makes denominational agencies and institutions accountable to the very general doctrinal statement of the denominational body that they serve. And to one degree or another, Baptists have always held their denominational structures accountable in some way, whether by statement, or by simply using their feet and walking away from support when there was a disagreement that couldn't be resolved.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 8057
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:10 pm
Location: Rural Western Pennsylvania

Re: Stephen Fox theory of SBC takeover vindicated

Postby Dave Roberts » Mon Oct 20, 2014 6:09 am

Sandy wrote:
First of all, the BFM doesn't remove Christ as the standard by which all scripture is judged, it clarifies the way that statement was often previously interpreted (If Jesus didn't say anything about it then it's not worth considering), pointing to Jesus as the object of all Biblical revelation which I see as a stronger "Jesus Criterion" than the 1963 version.


Sandy, I've been a Baptist for 60 years, and I never heard that interpretation except from CR/Takeover folks as an unproved accusation. What moderate ever took a stand on "If Jesus didn't say anything about it then it's not worth considering"?
"God will never be less than He is and does not need to be more" (John Koessler)

My blog: http://emporiadave.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Dave Roberts
Site Admin
 
Posts: 6891
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 2:01 pm
Location: Southside, VA

Re: Stephen Fox theory of SBC takeover vindicated

Postby Sandy » Mon Oct 20, 2014 6:54 am

Dave Roberts wrote:
Sandy wrote:
First of all, the BFM doesn't remove Christ as the standard by which all scripture is judged, it clarifies the way that statement was often previously interpreted (If Jesus didn't say anything about it then it's not worth considering), pointing to Jesus as the object of all Biblical revelation which I see as a stronger "Jesus Criterion" than the 1963 version.


Sandy, I've been a Baptist for 60 years, and I never heard that interpretation except from CR/Takeover folks as an unproved accusation. What moderate ever took a stand on "If Jesus didn't say anything about it then it's not worth considering"?


Look at some posts here, Dave, regarding homosexual behavior. I see that all the time. As far as "unproved accusations" go, most of what I've seen from the years of the controversy was documented by the very words of moderates in books and other writings of theirs.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 8057
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:10 pm
Location: Rural Western Pennsylvania

Re: Stephen Fox theory of SBC takeover vindicated

Postby Dave Roberts » Mon Oct 20, 2014 8:51 am

Sandy wrote:
Dave Roberts wrote:
Sandy wrote:
First of all, the BFM doesn't remove Christ as the standard by which all scripture is judged, it clarifies the way that statement was often previously interpreted (If Jesus didn't say anything about it then it's not worth considering), pointing to Jesus as the object of all Biblical revelation which I see as a stronger "Jesus Criterion" than the 1963 version.


Sandy, I've been a Baptist for 60 years, and I never heard that interpretation except from CR/Takeover folks as an unproved accusation. What moderate ever took a stand on "If Jesus didn't say anything about it then it's not worth considering"?


Look at some posts here, Dave, regarding homosexual behavior. I see that all the time. As far as "unproved accusations" go, most of what I've seen from the years of the controversy was documented by the very words of moderates in books and other writings of theirs.


Sandy, you are taking what someone is saying now and putting it back into the period before 2000 which is a historical error. Also, I saw most of the accusations with quotations from writers. I went back and read most of those, and especially quotes from my friend Glenn Hinson were badly mangled and taken out of context. I had the books and checked them all. Taking a few sentences was not support for what was being said.
"God will never be less than He is and does not need to be more" (John Koessler)

My blog: http://emporiadave.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Dave Roberts
Site Admin
 
Posts: 6891
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 2:01 pm
Location: Southside, VA

Re: Stephen Fox theory of SBC takeover vindicated

Postby Sandy » Mon Oct 20, 2014 10:53 am

Baptist Faith and Message 2000 wrote:The Holy Bible was written by men divinely inspired and is God's revelation of Himself to man. It is a perfect treasure of divine instruction. It has God for its author, salvation for its end, and truth, without any mixture of error, for its matter. Therefore, all Scripture is totally true and trustworthy. It reveals the principles by which God judges us, and therefore is, and will remain to the end of the world, the true center of Christian union, and the supreme standard by which all human conduct, creeds, and religious opinions should be tried. All Scripture is a testimony to Christ, who is Himself the focus of divine revelation.


That statement is consistent with what scripture says about itself, and what its individual writers say about the way and means by which they received divine inspiration. It's comprehensive, incorporates what both old and new testament writers said, and doesn't venture to draw conclusions that scripture writers didn't draw themselves. The 1963 statement isn't contradictory. This one strengthens the principle with the sentence that begins, "Therefore, all scripture..." and by noting that Jesus is more than just a criterion by which scripture is interpreted, but that he is the object of all scripture.

After reading several of Hinson's works, I can see where he came into conflict with conservatives. I don't think he understood that Southern Baptists weren't where he was in his thinking, as was the case with many moderate Baptists.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 8057
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:10 pm
Location: Rural Western Pennsylvania

Re: Stephen Fox theory of SBC takeover vindicated

Postby William Thornton » Mon Oct 20, 2014 3:03 pm

Start a topic stephen. This one isn't a garbage scow for all loose trash.
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11719
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Baplife.com becoming a fools playground

Postby Stephen Fox » Mon Oct 20, 2014 4:46 pm

I did start a topic, William, This one. Then Keithe moved it here to your playground where you have a gain deleted my specific thoughts to get the conversation back on topic of the original notion which was the Oct 9 new York Review of books.

You have been kind to me on occasion but to put it mildly you're repaeted witless deletions of my substantive and timely notions on this board is abusrud and most frustrating.

I hope Burce Gourley would have a word with you. or some reasonable person on this board would let me invoke Molly Worthen and Thomas Powers to move things along instead of this exercise in the BFM which we have hashed and rehashsed a thousand times.
"I'm the only sane {person} in here." Doyle Hargraves, Slingblade
"Midget, Broom; Helluva campaign". Political consultant, "Oh, Brother..."


http://www.foxofbama.blogspot.com or google asfoxseesit
Stephen Fox
 
Posts: 8947
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 9:29 pm

Re: Stephen Fox theory of SBC takeover vindicated

Postby Sandy » Mon Oct 20, 2014 5:40 pm

I think the name Molly Worthen has appeared in enough discussions here to consider that angle discussed and of no further value. A direct discussion with you, minus the name dropping, might be refreshing, at least, different enough to elicit a response.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 8057
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:10 pm
Location: Rural Western Pennsylvania

Re: Stephen Fox theory of SBC takeover vindicated

Postby William Thornton » Mon Oct 20, 2014 5:54 pm

Take a non-subtle hint, Stephen. Your name dropping and obsession with the author-du-jour are topic killers. All you need to do is offer a substantive, relevant comment that is more that a reading assignment or linkfest. You want to work Worthen in? Put some of her actual words in not just a reference implying the deficiency of all who haven't sat worshipfully at her feet.

You can do this.

By state a topic, I meant something like "Molly Worthen on SBC stuff." Then actually quote her.

Any references to Birchers or other mid-20th century junk will be instantly dispatched.

Good luck.
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11719
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Hate to go school yard on you, Billy

Postby Stephen Fox » Mon Oct 20, 2014 6:03 pm

But your day is coming on this matter. My Birch stuff is spot on and many folks who have more insight on this matter than you do agree.

As for Worthen I quoted her at some length less than a month ago, a matter that took a good twenty minutes of my valuable time on the earth, and you deleted it within 30 minutes of its posting.

Very poor judgment on your part, and a blight on the education I share with all who view this site.
"I'm the only sane {person} in here." Doyle Hargraves, Slingblade
"Midget, Broom; Helluva campaign". Political consultant, "Oh, Brother..."


http://www.foxofbama.blogspot.com or google asfoxseesit
Stephen Fox
 
Posts: 8947
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 9:29 pm

Re: Stephen Fox theory of SBC takeover vindicated

Postby William Thornton » Mon Oct 20, 2014 6:45 pm

You've got the time, Stephen.
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11719
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

How about this for a revelant point

Postby Stephen Fox » Mon Oct 20, 2014 7:22 pm

The October 9 Powers piece in the http://www.nybooks.com says the BFM of the early 20's set the Century up for a 100 years of disaster in Baptist life as it invoked a Scopes Trial, anti science statement on the earth's creation and the Monkeys that did not evolve in Monkeytown ( a play on rachel Helds' famously titled book) came into control of the SBC and used the rubric of inerrancy to slide a whole denomination into a tea party direction.

I made a similar statement earlier this afternoon to be deleted by Thornton almost 20 minutes later. I hope this restatement finds the oxygen it deserved the first time and still deserves!
"I'm the only sane {person} in here." Doyle Hargraves, Slingblade
"Midget, Broom; Helluva campaign". Political consultant, "Oh, Brother..."


http://www.foxofbama.blogspot.com or google asfoxseesit
Stephen Fox
 
Posts: 8947
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 9:29 pm

Re: Stephen Fox theory of SBC takeover vindicated

Postby William Thornton » Mon Oct 20, 2014 7:32 pm

No, you made no similar statement. This is better in that it actually conveys a cogent thought, or something resembling one. I knew you could do it without ad nauseum name drops, Bircher nonsense, and whatever else clings to your brain far too long.
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11719
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

October 17, 1969

Postby Stephen Fox » Thu Oct 23, 2014 6:47 pm

Williamm, scroll over to page seven, top right corner, click on the arrows and then using the magnifying icon to enlarge.

Here is the written word from which I am concocting the Gospel for the Halloween Edition of the Cherokee Chronicle of Gaffney South Carolina:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=S ... page&hl=en
"I'm the only sane {person} in here." Doyle Hargraves, Slingblade
"Midget, Broom; Helluva campaign". Political consultant, "Oh, Brother..."


http://www.foxofbama.blogspot.com or google asfoxseesit
Stephen Fox
 
Posts: 8947
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 9:29 pm

Fisher Humphreys in Nov Baps Today

Postby Stephen Fox » Mon Nov 03, 2014 10:42 pm

In a section on the Takeover says for a supposed theological battle it was waged politically with scarce little academic writing on the matter of inerrancy. Soon I will blog on the matter and may take up the original topic, the Oct 9 nybooks.com Thomas Powers piece in Baptist History. Am exploring now to see what my chances are in getting a thorough piece on the matter published in one of the better progressive periodicals. Will reference this exercise here on bl.com if I do
"I'm the only sane {person} in here." Doyle Hargraves, Slingblade
"Midget, Broom; Helluva campaign". Political consultant, "Oh, Brother..."


http://www.foxofbama.blogspot.com or google asfoxseesit
Stephen Fox
 
Posts: 8947
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 9:29 pm

mOLLY BLOG qUOTE

Postby Stephen Fox » Mon Nov 10, 2014 3:20 pm

Here is my last attempt to bring this topic back on subject after it's predicted detour into the inerrancy swamp. One last attempt to clear up with her own words what Molly Worthen thinks of inerrancy as it was used in the fundamentalist takeover of the SBC.

And for what she thought of this last mid term as it played out in her homestate of North Carolina, see public policy room of this board

http://foxofbama.blogspot.com/2014/11/m ... alist.html
"I'm the only sane {person} in here." Doyle Hargraves, Slingblade
"Midget, Broom; Helluva campaign". Political consultant, "Oh, Brother..."


http://www.foxofbama.blogspot.com or google asfoxseesit
Stephen Fox
 
Posts: 8947
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 9:29 pm

Re: Stephen Fox theory of SBC takeover vindicated

Postby Sandy » Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:35 pm

I still don't see any place where you've shown that Worthen considered the conservative resugence in the SBC as a "takeover" or characterized it as such. As to her evaluation of it being an "illusion," it must have been a pretty powerful one, to sustain ten years of electoral victories and solidify control of the SBC under conservative leadership, and an even more powerful one to retain it without much of a hint of opposition appearing over the next two decades, anywhere.

That's quite an illusion.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 8057
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:10 pm
Location: Rural Western Pennsylvania

It just never stops

Postby Stephen Fox » Thu Nov 13, 2014 6:54 pm

Right wing evangelicals ralleying around Tom Ellif's son in law and others for 2016

http://baptistnews.com/culture/politics ... te-in-2016
"I'm the only sane {person} in here." Doyle Hargraves, Slingblade
"Midget, Broom; Helluva campaign". Political consultant, "Oh, Brother..."


http://www.foxofbama.blogspot.com or google asfoxseesit
Stephen Fox
 
Posts: 8947
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 9:29 pm

Molly on stout panel tonight in NYC

Postby Stephen Fox » Tue Nov 18, 2014 7:13 pm

"I'm the only sane {person} in here." Doyle Hargraves, Slingblade
"Midget, Broom; Helluva campaign". Political consultant, "Oh, Brother..."


http://www.foxofbama.blogspot.com or google asfoxseesit
Stephen Fox
 
Posts: 8947
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 9:29 pm

Apocalypse and Evangelical political reaction at rd.org

Postby Stephen Fox » Wed Dec 03, 2014 3:15 pm

http://www.religiondispatches.org has review of new 400 page book on the matter. History of anti everything from New Deal to Obama care and civil rights movement cause Jesus was coming again.

http://religiondispatches.org/its-the-a ... -and-more/
"I'm the only sane {person} in here." Doyle Hargraves, Slingblade
"Midget, Broom; Helluva campaign". Political consultant, "Oh, Brother..."


http://www.foxofbama.blogspot.com or google asfoxseesit
Stephen Fox
 
Posts: 8947
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 9:29 pm

Gary Palmer's staff choices

Postby Stephen Fox » Wed Dec 10, 2014 5:43 pm

"I'm the only sane {person} in here." Doyle Hargraves, Slingblade
"Midget, Broom; Helluva campaign". Political consultant, "Oh, Brother..."


http://www.foxofbama.blogspot.com or google asfoxseesit
Stephen Fox
 
Posts: 8947
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 9:29 pm

Blog pnn Billy Graham and Marshall Frady

Postby Stephen Fox » Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:24 pm

"I'm the only sane {person} in here." Doyle Hargraves, Slingblade
"Midget, Broom; Helluva campaign". Political consultant, "Oh, Brother..."


http://www.foxofbama.blogspot.com or google asfoxseesit
Stephen Fox
 
Posts: 8947
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 9:29 pm

Rereading Bloom

Postby Stephen Fox » Thu May 14, 2015 3:56 pm

Last few days I have been rereading Harold Bloom's magnificent exegesis of the SBC Takeover in his 1990 The American Religion. Can't remember if Sandy or Thrnton said they ever read it, but if they want to know what I really think from the Know Nothings, to E Y Mullins, Pressler, Two Seed in the Spirit and the Presslerites, I can't much improve on Bloom who in a famous nutshell said: "The tragedy of the Southern Baptist Convention is the result of a political and social crusade that continues to masquerade as religious conviction."
"I'm the only sane {person} in here." Doyle Hargraves, Slingblade
"Midget, Broom; Helluva campaign". Political consultant, "Oh, Brother..."


http://www.foxofbama.blogspot.com or google asfoxseesit
Stephen Fox
 
Posts: 8947
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 9:29 pm

Previous

Return to SBC News and Trends

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron