Dennis Kim would be a good choice for SBC president

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Dennis Kim would be a good choice for SBC president

Postby William Thornton » Sun Jun 08, 2014 8:22 am

...so said I on my witty and insightful blog.

The graphic below may surprise my mod/lib friends:

Image

Kim's Silver Spring, Maryland church, Global Mission Church, has a predominantly Korean membership, according to a Baptist Press report.

There are three announced SBC presidential candidates. Jared Moore is a young, small church pastor and seminary student known mainly for his blogging. He is the current SBC 2nd Vice President, having been voted to such office with 451 votes in a quorum-lacking session last year. Great guy. Good pastor. Lacks seasoning, a broad knowledge of the SBC and its history and work. Has some positions that he has not thought very deeply about.

Ronnie Floyd is one of the SBC's most prominent megachurch pastors. He lost to Frank Page in 2006 primarily, in my view, because of his almost non-existent Cooperative Program support. His church has since moved to an acceptable, though below average percentage. He is to be nominated by Al Mohler perhaps because (a) Mohler is the SBC's most prominent leader, and (b) Mohler is the SBC's most prominent Calvinist and Floyd is no Calvinist, thereby making a meld of the SBC's two primary theological tribes. Although he is a stellar, high-powered, and successful pastor, I'm ready to move away from the megachurch/megapastor model for SBC leadership. Floyd would have to be the heavy favorite. If elected, he will do a good job and will have my support.

In some ways one might identify the future growth of the SBC with the growth of non-Anglo congregations such as that of Dennis Kim. I think it would be a very forward looking move for the SBC to elect the pastor of one such congregation as president. Frankly, I cannot think of a better, more visible and positive manner by which we could signal our view of the future of the SBC.
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Re: Dennis Kim would be a good choice for SBC president

Postby Haruo » Sun Jun 08, 2014 11:02 am

I'm not sure why you think we modlibs would find that statistic surprising. Virtually all denominations' growth in the USA is non-Anglo, since we Anglos by and large have outgrown church, and the ones who haven't have outgrown denominations. (How's that for an overgeneralized thumbnail?)
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Re: Dennis Kim would be a good choice for SBC president

Postby Haruo » Sun Jun 08, 2014 11:07 am

This is a hybrid post ABC/SBC. It looks like the 20% non-Anglo figure William posted is much closer to the Pew Center figures than the corresponding ABC stats. I'm wondering if there was ever any followup from Pew about ABC's objections to the 2008 survey. (this story)
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Re: Dennis Kim would be a good choice for SBC president

Postby William Thornton » Sun Jun 08, 2014 3:58 pm

You aren't a typical mod/lib, Haruo, but are much more informed and astute. It is my guess that most ex-SBCer mod/libs here are uninformed on the extent of SBC congregations that are non-Anglo, preferring to maintain their stereotype that the SBC is almost completely lily white complete with a drawl.
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Re: Dennis Kim would be a good choice for SBC president

Postby Dave Roberts » Mon Jun 09, 2014 9:43 am

Sorry, William. I learned that about 30 years ago when I pastored in Fayetteville, NC, and served a tri-racial congregation--Anglo, Black, and Hispanic. The days of Anglo-only Southern drawl churches is over in any denomination or church body that hopes to grow.
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Re: Dennis Kim would be a good choice for SBC president

Postby William Thornton » Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:01 am

Dave Roberts wrote:Sorry, William. I learned that about 30 years ago when I pastored in Fayetteville, NC, and served a tri-racial congregation--Anglo, Black, and Hispanic. The days of Anglo-only Southern drawl churches is over in any denomination or church body that hopes to grow.


Dave is, of course, also above average, astute, adroit, and perspicacious.
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Re: Dennis Kim would be a good choice for SBC president

Postby Sandy » Mon Jun 09, 2014 12:48 pm

If I'm not mistaken, while perusing some of Ed Stetzer's data regarding SBC church membership, the Maryland-Delaware state convention is the most diverse in terms of non-Anglo SBC congregations, not only with churches that are predominantly ethnic, but with those congregations that are quite diverse and mixed, and has several fair sized, mostly Anglo congregations that are pastored by African Americans, Koreans, and Hispanics.

I also heard, through the grapevine from which I still have a few friends, that there's been a lot of interest in the Maryland-Delaware convention, and along the East Coast, in the SBC since Dwight McKissic announced his intention to nominate Pastor Kim. That's a large enough convention to sway the vote, especially if a lot of the Northern Virginia churches, which also reflect a high level of ethnic diversity, participate in the convention. My SBC friends reflect William's perspective of being somewhat tired of the convention's officers reflecting the pattern of rewarding influential mega church pastors for their role in the conservative resurgence with the SBC Presidency.

I've also heard that there will be an immediate, and rather strong challenge to the first part of the messenger seating amendment, and a good chance that the requirement regarding compatibility with the BFM 2000 will bite the dust.
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Re: Dennis Kim would be a good choice for SBC president

Postby William Thornton » Tue Jun 10, 2014 1:46 pm

...but Ronnie Floyd won with 51% of the vote among 3 candidates.
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Re: Dennis Kim would be a good choice for SBC president

Postby Jerry_B » Tue Jun 10, 2014 6:29 pm

And all the ensconced leadership said "whew"

Evidently there wasn't any substantial discussion on the seating of messengers amendment.
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Re: Dennis Kim would be a good choice for SBC president

Postby Timothy Bonney » Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:28 pm

William,

Is this growth in ethnic congregations based on new ethnic Christians joining churches or additional ethnic churches joining the convention? The first would be more significant than the second.
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Re: Dennis Kim would be a good choice for SBC president

Postby Ed Pettibone » Tue Jun 10, 2014 10:52 pm

Timothy Bonney wrote:William,

Is this growth in ethnic congregations based on new ethnic Christians joining churches or additional ethnic churches joining the convention? The first would be more significant than the second.


Ed: And Timothy, in what way do you see growth based on new ethnic Christians joining churches as more significant than additional ethnic churches joining the convention?
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Re: Dennis Kim would be a good choice for SBC president

Postby Timothy Bonney » Tue Jun 10, 2014 11:08 pm

Because adding a church that already existed is not growth of new Christians or making new churches. It is affiliation growth like when someone transfers from one church to another. In this case, if by affiliation, no new churches may have been created or even new Christians, it is just choosing to affilate which suddenly increases ethnic congregations count. (If that is how it happens)

But if the SBC is starting new ethnic churches gaining new converts to the faith that is more significant for the kingdom, and in my opinion growth stats, than just adding or trading members from my Church franchise to yours. Or from being independent to SBC or from being National Baptist to SBC etc.

It can also be both/and. I'm sure the SBC is helping start new ethnic churches. I'm just wondering how much of each is happening and what is the bigger portion of the 20%.
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Re: Dennis Kim would be a good choice for SBC president

Postby Sandy » Wed Jun 11, 2014 6:51 am

I think, Timothy, your question about ethnic church growth in the SBC can be answered both ways. It depends on the location, and the ethnicity. Many African American churches in the SBC are already existing churches that join. While that's not increasing kingdom growth, many of them are dropping their affiliations with historically African American denominations and uniquely aligning with the SBC. Among Hispanics and Asians, the growth is in new church plants, and in many cases, assimilation into existing congregations. In this area, the new church plants are mostly Slavic or Asian. There's one church in this area which is the meeting place for a Ukrainian-Russian church, Vietnamese congregation and a group of Bhutanese Christians.
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Re: Dennis Kim would be a good choice for SBC president

Postby William Thornton » Wed Jun 11, 2014 7:08 am

NAMB and most SBC state conventions have been planting ethnic churches for decades. Most, perhaps all, of the ethnic churches I have been around were plants. It has been a priority for many years.
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Re: Dennis Kim would be a good choice for SBC president

Postby Timothy Bonney » Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:30 am

Sandy and William, thanks I think that helps. I imagine there are stats on this somewhere. But my curiousity isn't enough for me to go hunting for them.

This is a difference between congregationalist denominations and others. Local churches that are unaffiliated seldom join a connectional Church like the UMC or the PCUSA because, since they aren't connected now, they are probably congregationalist in polity. But Baptists and others who are congregationalist can and do change affiliations. So the SBC can get growth by adding existing churches in a way that some denominations really can't. So the phenomenon is interesting to me.
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Re: Dennis Kim would be a good choice for SBC president

Postby Sandy » Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:44 pm

I'm sure, Timothy, that you're aware that the struggle over Biblical authority isn't unique to the SBC. Many historically African American denominations have gone through it as well, and some of them have not taken as conservative a path as some of their church leaders would like. In places where it was unthinkable a generation ago for an African American church to leave its denomination and join the SBC, like Houston, Texas, that is now happening. Like William, though, most of the ethnic churches I've been around, predominantly Hispanic, are new church plants. In this area, that's almost universally true, even in predominantly African American churches. Since I've been doing continuing ed in the DC area, I have yet to find an SBC church that isn't predominantly made up of one ethnic minority or another, sometimes several. Most of those started as new church plants as well.

Statistically, according to Ed Stetzer, that's where most of the growth in evangelism is taking place in the SBC, in its church plants and ethnic congregations.
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Re: Dennis Kim would be a good choice for SBC president

Postby Ed Pettibone » Wed Jun 11, 2014 5:59 pm

William Thornton wrote:NAMB and most SBC state conventions have been planting ethnic churches for decades. Most, perhaps all, of the ethnic churches I have been around were plants. It has been a priority for many years.


Ed: And the geographically largest region of ABC-USA is found in the south. https://www.abcots.org/
You will note by the photos that it is made up predominantly of Blacks. It extends from Maryland through Texas. (see the map by using the link)
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Re: Dennis Kim would be a good choice for SBC president

Postby Sandy » Thu Jun 12, 2014 11:56 am

Ed Pettibone wrote:
William Thornton wrote:NAMB and most SBC state conventions have been planting ethnic churches for decades. Most, perhaps all, of the ethnic churches I have been around were plants. It has been a priority for many years.


Ed: And the geographically largest region of ABC-USA is found in the south. https://www.abcots.org/
You will note by the photos that it is made up predominantly of Blacks. It extends from Maryland through Texas. (see the map by using the link)


Are those churches dually affiliated with African American denominations as well, or are most of them uniquely aligned?

I think, if you peruse the figures from Lifeway, and from Ed Stetzer, the boom in growth of new church plants, especially ethnic congregations, in the SBC is from Maryland north, and in and around large cities, like Chicago, Philadelphia, and even New York city. I hear that the work in Philly is growing exponentially. I know from previous experience that the only real growth among Southern Baptists in Texas is among Hispanics, where the church planting is going like wildfire.
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Re: Dennis Kim would be a good choice for SBC president

Postby Dave Roberts » Thu Jun 12, 2014 12:13 pm

The "anointed one" only won by a 51% margin. There may be hope for the SBC yet :wink:
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Re: Dennis Kim would be a good choice for SBC president

Postby Ed Pettibone » Thu Jun 12, 2014 1:30 pm

Ed: Sandy, I have no idea how many of the 257 churches of the ABCOTS, are either Uniquely, or are Dually aligned. I am not at all surprised if so called "boom", is related to "growth of new church plants, especially ethnic congregations, in the SBC is from Maryland north, and in and around large cities, like Chicago, Philadelphia, and even New York city." is from Maryland north. Those are still the primary targets of migration for Hispanics and blacks as the move from south to north, plus the SBC has poured tons of money, primarily "Texas oil money" into such efforts. These efforts in many cases are still fulled by the false Idea that these areas "have no evangelical christian witness".

I am still persuaded that the SBC is not, "God's Last and only Hope". Thanks to Bill Leonard; for borrowing and refuting for that phrase from Levi Elder Barton. :)

BTW, I know nothing of Denis Kim therefor I have no the ax to grind related to his nomination.
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Re: Dennis Kim would be a good choice for SBC president

Postby Sandy » Thu Jun 12, 2014 2:04 pm

Dave Roberts wrote:The "anointed one" only won by a 51% margin. There may be hope for the SBC yet :wink:


It was just a little over 380 votes difference.
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Re: Dennis Kim would be a good choice for SBC president

Postby Ed Pettibone » Sat Jun 14, 2014 9:04 pm

Sandy wrote:
Dave Roberts wrote:The "anointed one" only won by a 51% margin. There may be hope for the SBC yet :wink:


It was just a little over 380 votes difference.


:oops: :oops: :oops: Gee, I am embarrassed I din't even know that the Southern Baptist convention was last week. It didn't make the news up here.
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Re: Dennis Kim would be a good choice for SBC president

Postby johnfariss » Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:30 pm

In the Potomac Baptist Association of southern Maryland where I minister, there are two or three predominantly African-American churches. All were existing churches which affiliated with the PBA, the Baptist Convention of Maryland-Delaware, and I assume the SBC, while retaining dual affiliation with their previous convention. There was an attempt to start a new church in a rapidly growing area of the county, and they called an African-American pastor, but the start folded--don't know why. Two of our former African-American members are attempting to start new churches in the area, but so far have not been successful. Several predominantly Anglo churches here have a few African-American and/or Hispanic members. The church I pastor is approximately 20-25% African-American, possibly a little more if youth who attend but are not members are counted. Under a previous PBA administration, every year we filled out our Uniform Church Letter (or whatever the thing is called) and under ethnicity, checked "Other" rather than white, black, Asian, etc. And every year, the secretary called and "asked" if she could not change that back to white. Never really got an explanation for why, but then they also routinely (without asking) changed the title of our youth minister to "youth director." I assume the reason is that a director is generally a volunteer, but a minister is paid vocational staff, and our paid vocational staff with responsibilities for youth is a (GASP!) African-American WOMAN.

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Re: Dennis Kim would be a good choice for SBC president

Postby johnfariss » Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:41 pm

Before coming to Maryland, I interviewed at a church in the Norfolk, VA area. They were a white (and graying and dwindling) congregation in a neighborhood that had changed from white to black. I told them that what I thought they should do was call co-pastors: perhaps an older, retired white pastor who could relate to the existing congregation, and a younger bi-vocational African-American pastor who could reach into the neighborhood. There was an audible gasp from the committee, and finally, the chairman said, "We're not that desperate!"

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Re: Dennis Kim would be a good choice for SBC president

Postby Sandy » Fri Jun 27, 2014 10:08 pm

Ed Pettibone wrote:These efforts in many cases are still fulled by the false Idea that these areas "have no evangelical christian witness".


That's not a false idea. There are a lot of places where there is no "evangelical" Christian witness in large segments of major Eastern cities. I just finished a week of working with church planters here in Pittsburgh, and in one of the most densely populated areas of the city, the only "evangelical" church, which I would define as one that preaches the gospel message and ministers with the intention of reaching people for Christ, is the SBC church plant. The United Methodist church in the neighborhood closed at the end of May, and the few remaining members merged with a Methodist church several miles away. The ABC-USA congregation, Mt. Lebanon Baptist Church, put its building up for sale in April, and disbanded. The Presbyterian church affiliated with PCUSA disbanded a year ago, their large, well appointed facility sits empty. There's a Catholic church in the neighborhood, but I don't consider them "evangelical", nor the Lutheran church in the neighborhood, which is mostly an elderly congregation in a maintenance mode. The SBC church plant, a congregation of about 50 that is about half African American, will probably lease the old Methodist building because it has more space than their current facility.

Sometimes existing congregations do not have the energy, or the ability, to be evangelistic in their neighborhood, and they are in maintenance mode. That's not evangelistic.
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