Adrian Rogers, 'rising star of Memphis,' elected 35 years ag

Discuss current news and trends taking place in the Southern Baptist Convention.

Moderator: William Thornton

Adrian Rogers, 'rising star of Memphis,' elected 35 years ag

Postby William Thornton » Wed May 21, 2014 7:24 pm

Baptist Press has a very good story on the historic election of Adrian Rogers in 1979:

Adrian Rogers, 'rising star of Memphis,' elected 35 years ago

I was not present (my first convention was 1982) but was a member of Bellevue in Memphis at the time, a seminary estudiante. It was a scintillating moment in church the Sunday following. I had little idea about the meaning of the event but, well, we all know now.

Here are a few exerpts from the BP story:

Rogers believed that some seminary administrators were being dishonest about what faculty members believed and that some faculty held views that were unacceptable to the Southern Baptists who funded them.
I think this is an unassailable truth. For many SBCers at the time the idea that we were paying for this stuff was the deal breaker.

Wills explained that for much of the 20th century, seminary administrators tried to persuade the denomination that their professors were orthodox while at the same time trying to persuade professors to conceal their more objectionable views, revealing them only at strategic moments to sympathetic audiences. Southern Seminary professor Bill Hull, for example, was known to hide progressive views in book reviews on modern French or Belgian New Testament scholarship. "I often like to 'bury' such comments in material that will be read only by those who need to see it," Hull wrote in a 1966 letter to Southern Seminary President Duke McCall.


[C. R.] Daley, a moderate, said in a lecture at Southern Seminary five years later, "Some of us saw the rising star out of Memphis named Adrian Rogers -- in my mind the most brilliant of his group, the one who poses the gravest threat to the Southern Baptist Convention. It was obvious that he was to be the king. It was obvious to some of us that he wasn't the kind of king we wanted."


Adrian was clearly the most able of the CR leaders.

"I sincerely doubt ... that fundamentalism could have known its measure of success apart from Adrian Rogers," [Walter] Shurden wrote. "... No other fundamentalist could rival him as preacher, debater, or intransigent believer. When the leadership of the fundamentalists met for their strategy sessions, the press releases often read, 'Adrian Rogers presided.' He was by far fundamentalists' most capable leader and moderates' most formidable opponent."


It's hard to believe that it has been 35 years, almost two generations (part of BP's goal is, no doubt, to recount the story to SBC pastors who weren't around at the time) since this and over eight years since Adrian died.
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 10363
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: Adrian Rogers, 'rising star of Memphis,' elected 35 year

Postby William Thornton » Wed May 21, 2014 7:26 pm

I think that Adrian's election as the first of the series of conservatives, his forgoing the traditional second term, and his re-election for two years in the middle of the resurgence was a brilliant decision. I have never seen that explained.
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 10363
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

The die was cast early on

Postby Stephen Fox » Wed May 21, 2014 9:49 pm

I think my Dad went to that convention from Alice Bell BC in Knoxville but I can't rember for sure. I do remember seeing the Esquire Magazine story by Richard Marius in Dec 81 and from that time on, for me at least, knowing a little by then about Marshall Frady and Will Campbell, It was on.

Here is a letter I got from Marius in 1987 about that article. You can see more in the Expository Harvard thread in the History section of this board.

Randall Balmer did a series for Christian Century in the mid 90s about churches across America. He remembered in the July 4 extravaganza at Bellevue in the skit about the Civil War, the Confederates chased the Union soldiers off the stage. In his review of Molly Worthens book a few weeks ago Balmer called the fundamentalist takeover of the SBC not a paradox but a "tragedy".

You know I agree with him.

Here is Marius 87 response:

Dear Mr. Fox

Your interesting letter of May 13 has arrived....I am interested in the fundamentalists, and I may write something else about them sometime, but not now.

My story in the Dec 81 Esquire disappointed me for several reasons. Esquire cut out my effort to analyze the fundamentalist take-over of the convention and to link it with all sorts of right-wing groups. I talked at length with Paige Patterson. I said in my article that if anybody ever taught an elephant to talk, the elephant would sound like Paige Pattterson. But in their wisdom, the editors cut that out along with lots of other comments. I immensely disliked the fundamentalists because I thought that they represented the worst sort of religious bigots--people unwilling to admit their own doubts and eager to persecute others so they might prove to themselves that they do indeed believe. Of course I was a reporter getting them to to talk, and I made no response to their gibberish except to ask questions. I had a long telephone conversation with Ed McAteer. He sent me a lot of literature that I eventually threw away. McAteer and Pattterson freely admitted their friendship with Jesse Helms, and I had no doubt that the fundies see themselves as the religious wing of a great poliitical drive towards a certain kind of dictatorship in America. But I have thought all along that they would overextend themselves and die. I found Patterson,, his fat little cohort Paul Pressler, and Patterson's rotund brother-in-law (who edits the Baptist Advocate--hilarious people, worthy of burlesque. But I'm too busy now to do anything except look on from afar.

Good luck in your future [endeavours]. Alas, I have to stop drinking Coors Beer. I thought the sons had taken a more moderate stance than the old man had taken. But I see I was misinformed. I would be interested in organziaing a boycott against the firm.

Yours sincerely,

Richard Marius
"I'm the only sane {person} in here." Doyle Hargraves, Slingblade
"Midget, Broom; Helluva campaign". Political consultant, "Oh, Brother..."


http://www.foxofbama.blogspot.com or google asfoxseesit
Stephen Fox
 
Posts: 7822
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 9:29 pm

Re: The die was cast early on

Postby Sandy » Wed May 21, 2014 10:19 pm

Stephen Fox wrote:I think my Dad went to that convention from Alice Bell BC in Knoxville but I can't rember for sure. I do remember seeing the Esquire Magazine story by Richard Marius in Dec 81 and from that time on, for me at least, knowing a little by then about Marshall Frady and Will Campbell, It was on.

Here is a letter I got from Marius in 1987 about that article. You can see more in the Expository Harvard thread in the History section of this board.

Randall Balmer did a series for Christian Century in the mid 90s about churches across America. He remembered in the July 4 extravaganza at Bellevue in the skit about the Civil War, the Confederates chased the Union soldiers off the stage. In his review of Molly Worthens book a few weeks ago Balmer called the fundamentalist takeover of the SBC not a paradox but a "tragedy".

You know I agree with him.

Here is Marius 87 response:

Dear Mr. Fox

Your interesting letter of May 13 has arrived....I am interested in the fundamentalists, and I may write something else about them sometime, but not now.

My story in the Dec 81 Esquire disappointed me for several reasons. Esquire cut out my effort to analyze the fundamentalist take-over of the convention and to link it with all sorts of right-wing groups. I talked at length with Paige Patterson. I said in my article that if anybody ever taught an elephant to talk, the elephant would sound like Paige Pattterson. But in their wisdom, the editors cut that out along with lots of other comments. I immensely disliked the fundamentalists because I thought that they represented the worst sort of religious bigots--people unwilling to admit their own doubts and eager to persecute others so they might prove to themselves that they do indeed believe. Of course I was a reporter getting them to to talk, and I made no response to their gibberish except to ask questions. I had a long telephone conversation with Ed McAteer. He sent me a lot of literature that I eventually threw away. McAteer and Pattterson freely admitted their friendship with Jesse Helms, and I had no doubt that the fundies see themselves as the religious wing of a great poliitical drive towards a certain kind of dictatorship in America. But I have thought all along that they would overextend themselves and die. I found Patterson,, his fat little cohort Paul Pressler, and Patterson's rotund brother-in-law (who edits the Baptist Advocate--hilarious people, worthy of burlesque. But I'm too busy now to do anything except look on from afar.

Good luck in your future [endeavours]. Alas, I have to stop drinking Coors Beer. I thought the sons had taken a more moderate stance than the old man had taken. But I see I was misinformed. I would be interested in organziaing a boycott against the firm.

Yours sincerely,

Richard Marius


Haven't seen the name Richard Marius here from Stephen before. Marshall Frady, Will Campbell, Randall Balmer, the John Birch society, Molly Worthen.....

Y * A * W * N

Same cast of characters. Same program. Same channel...

Worthen makes it clear that Adrian Roger's election was the beginning of an alignment of the leadership of the SBC with a conservative perspective that already overwhelmingly existed among the pastors and churches of the convention. As an outsider, in analyzing her research, she simply states the obvious, and never uses language that indicates she thought this was a "takeover." How could it be? Rogers was the pastor of a church that was entitled to elect its full complement of messengers under the rules, as were all of the other messengers present at the convention. And it is pretty clear, since the leadership that began with Rogers has been affirmed by 35 subsequent conventions, that he was the first in a succession of leaders who were elected because they represented the views of the vast majority of Southern Baptists. The only thing that ever prevented the other side from winning control of the convention back was that they were so overwhelmingly outnumbered.

SBC theology reflects a solid, comprehensive view of scripture as the inerrant, infallible, written word of God since at least 1925 in its confessions of faith, and back to its formation in 1845 in the documents of its meetings, and statements of faith of its churches. The leadership took a different track when the seminaries began to move to the left in the 50's and 60's, and Adrian Rogers' election in 1979 was the beginning of a realignment, not a takeover. Your friend Molly, an outsider who wasn't part of the SBC, and merely observed through research, affirms that fact. Balmer's review of her work only reflects his bias.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 6104
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:10 pm
Location: Rural Western Pennsylvania

Re: Adrian Rogers, 'rising star of Memphis,' elected 35 year

Postby William Thornton » Thu May 22, 2014 7:05 am

One of your few quite cogent posts here, Stephen, even if I don't buy all that you say. I did delete the gratuitous and unchristian Nazi stuff.

When Shurden concludes that the CR would not have happened without Adrian, I get the sense that a sense of reality is acknowledged in spite of strong disagreement. Many moderates to this day maintain and live in their own alternate universe filled with mythology about the CR.

If the CR consisted of a single annual meeting with a favorable election result, a disaffected moderate could be more sanguine about the results npt representing any broad SBC feelings, "They got lucky on that election", "Rogers mesmerized the masses", or the like. But the necessity of repeating the same arduous process for a decade - getting people to attend the meetings, electing like minded presidents, making the right nominations, getting the nominations approved at the meetings, fending off moderate parliamentary maneuvers, dealing with a universally and virulently hostile denominational press - was an astonishing achievement. While Patterson and Pressler were indispensable to the process in their roles, without Adrian it would not ha pave come together. None of the other characters, Criswell, Vines, Smith, et al, had the necessary charisma.
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 10363
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Brown Shirts, Nazis etc

Postby Stephen Fox » Thu May 22, 2014 8:11 am

Hear my point William. In the last few days I have had a strong dose of Charles Marsh writings. He grew up in Charles Pickering's church in Laurel Mississippi just a few blocks away from Sam Bowers. Pickering is now a leader with the ADF, the Reagan and Tea Party administration ongoing challenge to the Baptist Joint Committee. Pick was also on the Peace Committee.

I think you know Bowers story.

A matter of degree, wrapping their religion to the state. There is no denying there was a strong dose of that evident with Pressler and Helms and Adrian Rogers key church member Ed McAteer etc.

May be hard for you to stomach but a take on this aspect of Baptist history that has long and deep footnotes.

So please don't delete a strong truth you may find nauseating.

And the "milder version" phrase I revamp from a dissent early in the Bush admnistration Bill Hull himself ratified in my presence. So if Bill Hull can be quoted in the BP story have the integrity to let me quote Bill Hull as well, rather remind you what Bill Hull was thinking as late as 2003
Last edited by Stephen Fox on Thu May 22, 2014 8:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
"I'm the only sane {person} in here." Doyle Hargraves, Slingblade
"Midget, Broom; Helluva campaign". Political consultant, "Oh, Brother..."


http://www.foxofbama.blogspot.com or google asfoxseesit
Stephen Fox
 
Posts: 7822
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 9:29 pm

Re: Adrian Rogers, 'rising star of Memphis,' elected 35 year

Postby William Thornton » Thu May 22, 2014 8:58 am

Then quote Bill Hull, Stephen, and likely avoid my editing. You are either going to be relevant here to the topic or not have your stuff stand.
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 10363
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: Adrian Rogers, 'rising star of Memphis,' elected 35 year

Postby Haruo » Thu May 22, 2014 8:58 am

Richard Marius sounds like he's bigoted against the obese.
Haruo (呂須•春男) = ᎭᎷᎣ = Leland Bryant Ross
Repeal the language taxLearn and use Esperanto
Fremont Baptist ChurchMy hymnblog
User avatar
Haruo
Site Admin
 
Posts: 9964
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 8:21 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Adrian Rogers, 'rising star of Memphis,' elected 35 year

Postby Sandy » Thu May 22, 2014 9:15 am

I've been reading Stephen's theories regarding the conservative resurgence in the SBC here for a long time. The evidence doesn't support his theories altogether, though there are a few accurate observations in them, here and there.

There's no way that the conservatives could have sustained long term control of the officers, and thus the key to trustee appointments, without a supportive majority in the churches. While only a small fraction, about 8-12%, of the churches in the convention are represented in any given year, over the course of a decade, according to the records between 1979 and 1989 (per the SBC annual report published by Lifeway), messengers from over 22,000 churches attended during that time. A significant majority of churches and the messengers they sent had to be informed, and in agreement with the aims of the new leadership in order to pull that off and sustain it over time. Worthen points this out, BTW.

As it turned out, by the facts, those within the SBC who were representative of the "other side" were a relatively small fragment of the membership. Even among the largest splinter group, CBF, which still has a substantial majority of churches within its ranks that support the SBC financially, the view that you represent is not held by the majority. It required repeated attendance by the same small clique of messengers year after year to keep control, and as long as there wasn't an organized effort among conservatives, they could hang on based on the provincial, backward way the convention operates. But once the conservatives pulled together, they were doomed.

Likening this to the way churches in Germany responded to Hitler is offensive, and is not even a reasonable comparison.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 6104
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:10 pm
Location: Rural Western Pennsylvania

Re: Adrian Rogers, 'rising star of Memphis,' elected 35 year

Postby William Thornton » Thu May 22, 2014 10:40 am

Haruo wrote:Richard Marius sounds like he's bigoted against the obese.


I'm guessing that he found PP more like an elephant in regard to bellowing.
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 10363
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: Adrian Rogers, 'rising star of Memphis,' elected 35 year

Postby ET » Thu May 22, 2014 1:04 pm

William Thornton wrote:I think that Adrian's election as the first of the series of conservatives, his forgoing the traditional second term, and his re-election for two years in the middle of the resurgence was a brilliant decision. I have never seen that explained.

Well, William, you and I were members of BBC at the same time....I was just a young 'un in high school (just completed 9th grade) in '79. We'd joined in Feb of that year after visiting for some time and moved from a local Methodist church. Caused QUITE a stir and a good bit of friction in my family as my maternal grandmother was a lifelong Methodist and was not happy about it. My grandfather was a Baptist...he went to the Baptist church, she went to the Methodist church until she became caretaker of my great-grandmother and had to stay home most Sundays to care for her.

I had no desire for church or God's Word until we started going to Bellevue, nor do I recall anything much related to salvation or the need of it. It may have been there, but wasn't preached strongly or regularly from what I can remember. Church up to that time had almost been forced attendance to me as the preaching and programs were "weak", which was why my Mom prodded Dad to visit Bellevue (she had attended Bellevue a few years while in college and Dr. Lee was there). I was saved there and found a place where God's word was taught far more faithfully and regularly and a much better job was done with teaching how it applied to and was a guide for my life.

Anyway...all that's irrelevant to your quoted statement, but from my basic knowledge, I believe Dr. Rogers bailed after the first year because he was, first and foremost, a preacher and he loved to preach and I don't think the "politics" of the position and the required time away was to his liking. At the time, he was preaching 3 times on Sunday morning, on Sunday night and on Wed night. From a few discussions with staff members in years past, he just wanted to be back in the pulpit and stepped down after the first year so he could get back to what he loved.
I'm Ed Thompson, and I approve this message.
User avatar
ET
 
Posts: 2547
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2006 1:20 pm
Location: Cordova, TN

Re: Adrian Rogers, 'rising star of Memphis,' elected 35 year

Postby Sandy » Thu May 22, 2014 2:33 pm

William Thornton wrote:"I sincerely doubt ... that fundamentalism could have known its measure of success apart from Adrian Rogers," [Walter] Shurden wrote. "... No other fundamentalist could rival him as preacher, debater, or intransigent believer. When the leadership of the fundamentalists met for their strategy sessions, the press releases often read, 'Adrian Rogers presided.' He was by far fundamentalists' most capable leader and moderates' most formidable opponent."


Repeating cliches and terms over and over, as if they are accepted and true, doesn't exactly make it so. I hear "takeover, takeover, takeover, takeover" and "fundamentalist, fundamentalist, fundamentalist, fundamentalist," over and over. Adrian Rogers was the pastor of one of the SBC's largest churches which was entitled to send the maximum number of messengers to the convention allowed under the bylaws, and as a member of that church was eligible to be elected President of the convention. Only a sense of entitlement and privilege can turn that into a "takeover." You can't "take over" a denomination to which you belong, and qualify to serve as a leader.

I'm pretty sure that Fundamentalist Baptists of the FBC Hammond, Highland Park/Tennessee Temple, Akron Baptist Temple, Bob Jones, Pensacola Christian, Columbia Bible College variety would never accept Adrian Rogers, or any of the SBC presidents since his time, into their fold, nor would they consider them to be anything but far left wing liberals. Rogers was definitely conservative, though listening to and watching his preaching for years, I wouldn't say he's even ultra right wing. Falwell was eventually talked into a "sort of" affiliation that has warmed a bit since he passed on, but he was considered pretty far to the left by other fundamental Baptists. Liberty has had to move a good bit away from the old liners in order to be as politically engaged as it is. One of the distinguishing features of true fundamentalists is their Anabaptist view of politics.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 6104
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:10 pm
Location: Rural Western Pennsylvania

Adrian Rogers was a fundamentalist of first order

Postby Stephen Fox » Thu May 22, 2014 2:56 pm

He demanded everybody believe like he did in the History and Science of the first 11 chapters of Genesis.--see what Bryant College in Dayton Tn is going through today.

Ed McAteer was his ultimate culture warrior at Bellevue and Adrian locked in the Helms/Pressler/McAteer agenda at every point of the way, the Paul Weyrich plan to flip Jimmy Carter out of office.

Bellevue had its own seminary, Mid America in competition with the SBC Seminaries,so Adrian was all but independent Baptist like Vines and Stanley when Criswell Patterson and Pressler rexruited them further into The Cause.

Just because Sandy and William refuse to accept these hard truths doesn't make them any less so!
"I'm the only sane {person} in here." Doyle Hargraves, Slingblade
"Midget, Broom; Helluva campaign". Political consultant, "Oh, Brother..."


http://www.foxofbama.blogspot.com or google asfoxseesit
Stephen Fox
 
Posts: 7822
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 9:29 pm

Re: Adrian Rogers, 'rising star of Memphis,' elected 35 year

Postby Sandy » Thu May 22, 2014 4:03 pm

Stephen Fox wrote:Bellevue had its own seminary, Mid America in competition with the SBC Seminaries,so Adrian was all but independent Baptist like Vines and Stanley when Criswell Patterson and Pressler rexruited them further into The Cause.


If you can point me to the place where the SBC bylaws define the term "all but independent Baptist," I'd like to see it. There's no requirement or bylaw in the SBC constitution that says your church must exclusively support only SBC-related educational institutions, buy only SBC produced Sunday School literature, and that it cannot sponsor or operate its own college, seminary, or other Christian school. Nor is there a requirement that a church must give a specific percentage of its undesignated receipts to the Cooperative Program in order to qualify to send messengers to the convention, and the bylaws are pretty clear that any church which qualifies to send messengers is qualified to have one or more of them elected as officers. It makes no difference whether a church has its own seminary or not, as long as it cooperates with the convention in the manner that is prescribed in the constitution and bylaws, it can elect messengers, and its members can be elected and serve as officers or trustees at the convention's pleasure. The convention seemed very pleased to elect Adrian Rogers over the recycled, finger in every pie, good ole boys that had been the limited choices of the ruling oligarchy for years. You can keep calling that a "takeover" if you want to, but it doesn't make it so.

There are several other seminaries, Bible colleges and divinity schools that pre-date the 1979 beginning of the conservative resurgence, which were founded and operated by Southern Baptists, including local churches, associations, and state conventions. There's nothing wrong with that, and to call it "competition" is a ludicrous assertion. The main difference is that those institutions which are not part of the SBC must find their own funding and support, and are not under the governance of the SBC. That does not in any way make them any less "Southern Baptist," nor their graduates any less qualified than those who attend SBC supported schools.

Stephen Fox wrote:He demanded everybody believe like he did in the History and Science of the first 11 chapters of Genesis.--see what Bryant College in Dayton Tn is going through today.


Would you like to cite the reference that proves this assertion? It's not Bryant College, its Bryan College, which is an independent, fundamentalist Baptist institution, not SBC related at all and completely irrelevant to this discussion.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 6104
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:10 pm
Location: Rural Western Pennsylvania

Re: Adrian Rogers, 'rising star of Memphis,' elected 35 year

Postby William Thornton » Thu May 22, 2014 4:46 pm

Stephen, you're going to stick to the subject and avoid your pet flights of fantasy. They will be deleted.

You raise a relevant point on AR and Mid-America although facts on the relationship argue against your point. To wit:

MABTS was not Bellevue's seminary. It began elsewhere prior to AR arriving in Memphis. The church and seminary were and are close but the church contributed a generous amount though only small fraction of the school's budget. A school that has
predominantly SB students, all SB faculty, and almost all support from SB churches and individuals is a southern baptist seminary.


...but I congratulate you stephen. This is the most actual dialogue you have undertaken in quite some time.
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 10363
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Thanks for kudos William; and an anecdote

Postby Stephen Fox » Thu May 22, 2014 8:24 pm

First, Sandy, Bryant was a typo. I've lived in Alabama for almost 30 years now and every other toe head and his uncle is named Bryant after the Coach so its almost an afterthought.

I'm well aware of Bryan College in Dayton Tn and everything Rachel Held Evans has written about Evolvinb in Monkeytown. In fact I thought I linked at one point a recent NYtimes piece on Bryan College and how the President there is now trying to navigate the first 11 chapters of Genesis with his trustees the way Adrian and Company forced Furman, Stetson, Wake Forest etc--you know the litany--when the fundamentalists brought the takeover down to the state convention level; Nelson Price be praised.

BTW, William, I forgot Jimmy Carter and Nelson Price used to be great friends; in fact Carter had Price either pray or preach the morning of his inauguration as President in D.C. All that before James Dickey delivered his great poem The Strength of Fields.

Oh, my anecdote, and I concede it is just that, anecdotal but strong. Serendipitously I stumbled onto Tracy Thompson's New Mind of the South this afternoon, a work I had my eyes on since I read the Hal Crowther review last Summer in the Oxford American. Tracy raised Southern Baptist in Atlanta in the 80s, takes a tour of the deep south couple years ago and wanders into a Southern Baptist Church in Clarksdale, Mississippi to see what registers. She opined that her memories of overly strict and mind numbing community but strong sense of belonging were frayed. She said a church where you were practically begged to join as she remembered the warmth and invitation of her childhood, the sermon she heard that morning raised a sense of suspicion about the person sitting next to you on the pew. Was their Doctrine right? She said the Inclusivity she remembered of the early 80s and before had been replaced by a palpable Exclusivity.

I don't think she was briefed by Randall Balmer or Walter Shurden. She got it right away. Such is the legacy of the Memphis Star.
"I'm the only sane {person} in here." Doyle Hargraves, Slingblade
"Midget, Broom; Helluva campaign". Political consultant, "Oh, Brother..."


http://www.foxofbama.blogspot.com or google asfoxseesit
Stephen Fox
 
Posts: 7822
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 9:29 pm

Re: Adrian Rogers, 'rising star of Memphis,' elected 35 year

Postby Sandy » Thu May 22, 2014 9:43 pm

William Thornton wrote:...but I congratulate you stephen. This is the most actual dialogue you have undertaken in quite some time.


It was until his last post. I asked him to point out where the SBC bylaws defined a church as "all but independent Baptist." Didn't get a response. I asked for a reference to any place that Adrian Rogers "demanded" that everyone share his views of the first 11 chapters of Genesis. Didn't get a response. In a dialogue, there'd have been a response rather than yet another name of someone who wasn't happy with the way things turned out and had a comment on it.

Actually, isn't every Southern Baptist church independent and autonomous? Where is it a required test of loyalty not to support any but the six SBC seminaries? Is that in the bylaws or constitution somewhere? I'd also like to know how Mid-America Baptist Theological Seminary "competed" with the SBC seminaries.

Point those things out, and we'll be in dialogue mode again.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 6104
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:10 pm
Location: Rural Western Pennsylvania

The Thornton Challenge

Postby Stephen Fox » Fri May 23, 2014 9:17 am

Here is my Invitation, one of the few altar calls I've given in my Life. I have every intention of being present in Atlanta for the Friday afternoon Balmer workshop if Thornton would like to join me.
"I'm the only sane {person} in here." Doyle Hargraves, Slingblade
"Midget, Broom; Helluva campaign". Political consultant, "Oh, Brother..."


http://www.foxofbama.blogspot.com or google asfoxseesit
Stephen Fox
 
Posts: 7822
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 9:29 pm

Re: Adrian Rogers, 'rising star of Memphis,' elected 35 year

Postby William Thornton » Fri May 23, 2014 10:25 am

Thanks for the invite stephen but I'll pass. Feel free to do a recap on the BFM forum. If you would drive the extra 30 miles or so over here' I'll buy you BBQ.
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 10363
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

In your vicinity now

Postby Stephen Fox » Fri May 23, 2014 12:34 pm

Thought about meeting you at Buford and I'm still open if you get to Rome sometime, but quite frankly I saw no need for you to edit my last post. I have a legitimate point to make and I guess I'll have to make it elsewhere.

You monitor this SBC Trends aspect and I appreciate your contribution and am grateful for most of our history on this board.

However I strongly dissent from the last few edits in this conversation about the legacy of Adrian Rogers.

We're still friends, Hope things otherwsie are well. Not sure about my North Georgia route this afternoon, but was toying with the Buford Mall.

May post Monday or so
"I'm the only sane {person} in here." Doyle Hargraves, Slingblade
"Midget, Broom; Helluva campaign". Political consultant, "Oh, Brother..."


http://www.foxofbama.blogspot.com or google asfoxseesit
Stephen Fox
 
Posts: 7822
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 9:29 pm

Re: Adrian Rogers, 'rising star of Memphis,' elected 35 year

Postby William Thornton » Fri May 23, 2014 3:53 pm

Sure, were friends. I would like you to stay on topic and not venture to the extremes.
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 10363
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

I've stated my position at History Section

Postby Stephen Fox » Fri May 30, 2014 12:49 pm

With the latest grand analogous link and placed myself at the mercy of the Deliberations of Dr. Bruce Gourley.
"I'm the only sane {person} in here." Doyle Hargraves, Slingblade
"Midget, Broom; Helluva campaign". Political consultant, "Oh, Brother..."


http://www.foxofbama.blogspot.com or google asfoxseesit
Stephen Fox
 
Posts: 7822
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 9:29 pm

Re: Adrian Rogers, 'rising star of Memphis,' elected 35 year

Postby Sandy » Fri May 30, 2014 8:07 pm

I'm guessing that dialogue on this subject isn't something in which Stephen wants to participate.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 6104
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:10 pm
Location: Rural Western Pennsylvania

Re: Adrian Rogers, 'rising star of Memphis,' elected 35 year

Postby William Thornton » Fri May 30, 2014 8:56 pm

Sandy wrote:I'm guessing that dialogue on this subject isn't something in which Stephen wants to participate.


...dialogue would be fine. I've just edited out all his extraneous stuff which is why he moved it to the other forum.
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 10363
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: Adrian Rogers, 'rising star of Memphis,' elected 35 year

Postby Dave Roberts » Sat Jul 05, 2014 3:49 pm

William, what ever happened with Dr. Rogers' promises to the senior adults of Bellevue. He told them, and I got this directly from my wife's grandmother who was one of them, to sell their jewelry, bring their savings, and cash in their retirement accounts. He said that Bellevue would be building senior adult facilities in the New Canaan and the church would take care of them. They also would be in walking distance of the new church facilities. Were his promises ever fulfilled?
"God will never be less than He is and does not need to be more" (John Koessler)

My blog: http://emporiadave.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Dave Roberts
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5880
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 2:01 pm
Location: Southside, VA

Next

Return to SBC News and Trends

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 1 guest

cron