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Closed shop, perhaps. But you must also remember that the SBC provides 70% of the cost of attending seminary from CP gifts. The promotion in giving that money is that it supports theological education for missionaries and ministers. When I was in school at Southwestern, it was closer to 90% of the cost. That's based on the belief that the education of its ministers is a responsibility of the church. The trustees are obligated to honor that commitment, as is the administration.

Ordination and call to ministry in an SBC church is strictly a local church responsibility. So the denomination has designed a way for a church to recognize a candidate as qualified and endorsed, first by another church where they held membership endorsing their call so they can be admitted to seminary, and then by the seminary awarding their degree. ABC-USA is the only Baptist denomination I know of that has a board which endorses ministers, and your friend Janelle in South Bend is the first ABC-USA minister I've met that was serving a church as an endorsed minister. The others I've known were called directly by the church, with a degree from an SBC seminary.

I do know Sandy that non-SBC folks have been allowed to attend SBTS while paying a higher tuition rate. I just don't see the hang up with a non-Christian taking classes at a seminary if he is paying his own way. It sounds like the paper work would have to be changed. But there is always the chance you could get a convert. I'm not sure it actually helps the SBC to prevent non-ministry candidates from attending. That is the denominations call of course.

Also, the General Baptists have an endorsement process as well through a "presbytery." I ran across this practice while in Indiana. What it amounts to is that I imagine that each Baptist group has their own system and your mileage may vary.

I occasionally hear from Janell on Facebook. She is a good pastor!

I'm afraid you are mischaracterizing many in Islamic faith. Many Muslims do not consider Christians to be heretics or infidels and I doubt a Muslim interested in attending a Christian seminary would consider such. Not all Muslims are extremist Muslims any more than all Christians are conservative, liberal, etc.

Sandy, we aren't going to convince each other. But I would note this is the one and only time you are likely to ever see me defend the actions of Paige Patterson while you are opposing them. Someone record the date.

The Koran's definition of infidel applies universally to Christians. Individual Muslims may not act like they accept that, but it's part of the cornerstone and foundation of the religion. At any rate, it is a violation of the seminary's policy, and Patterson should have consulted the trustees first, and got their approval. Now he's going to have an uproar on his hands at least as significant as that which brought Richard Land down.

That isn't the way al Muslims interpret the Koran. The Bible also says to stone adulterers. We don't follow that either.

I know from personal experience with the Muslim community in several places that they do not interpret it that Christians are infidels etc. If you want to argue with them about their own holy book feel free. But I'd say they have the right to interpret their own faith just like Christians have the right to interpret the Bible.

Islam is an authoritarian religion. Personal interpretation of the Koran may occur in extremely rare, isolated instances, but the Imams and Ayatollahs are the only interpreters of the Koran, and the religion teaches that it is heresy to even read passages from the Koran in a language aside from Arabic, much less allow for personal interpretation. You may know a few Muslims here or there who are far enough outside the culture to venture a conversation with a Christian, but that's not representative of Islam as a whole, or even an extremely small faction of it. Even in some of the most moderate Islamic countries, Christianity is barely tolerated, missionaries are not allowed, and families disown members who convert. Exceptions don't support your contention.

The Old Testament says to stone adulterers, and rebellious children. But the crux of Christian theology is the New Testament. Jesus reinterpreted that. He had the authority.

You need to meet some other Muslims Sandy, it might broaden your horizons. I wasn't talking about people on the fringe of the faith. I was talking about Imams I've met in my interfaith work in the Des Moines Area Religious Council. They aren't outside or on the fringe, they are their faith leaders. I'm talking about neighbors who have shared with me what they are taught. I'm talking about Muslims in the US not in Iraq. Maybe I just have known more persons in the Islamic faith than you have?

I'm not saying their aren't Muslims who don't think that Christians are infidels. I'm saying that you are making a huge assumption saying that is what most Muslims believe, what most Muslims in the US believe, or even more so what the individual Muslim believes who is at SWBTS.

If it's "a seminary, not a divinity school", let alone "a grad school", then what is an archaeology degree doing in its repertoire? (Or home ec?)

In looking at the catalog descriptions, the degree isn't in archaology. It is an MA or a PhD in Biblical Studies and Archaeology, and its ministry purpose is in the field of Biblical apologetics.

The Home ec is designed for those women who aren't necessarily planning a career outside the home, as their husband serves in vocational ministry. I don't see that as a problem. A good portion of the degree is in Biblical studies as well, We live in a culture where such skills are not necessarily taught at home, and if a family chooses to have the wife at home, the "economics" part of home economics is always helpful. The Biblical studies can be useful preparation for a lot of things.

Sandy, you wrote earlier, "The courses of study are designed exclusively to prepare students for Christian ministry, either in local churches or in the denomination on the mission field. Enrollment requires a local church endorsement of the student''s testimony and call to ministry. A degree from one of them is a document which tells churches that this individual has completed a course of study that has prepared them for Christian missions or ministry."

Your insistent "Islam teaches X" assertions sound just like the descriptions of Christianity that I used to run up against with atheists in the Godless Zone forum. Islam is not as monolithic as you (and the ayatollahs) make it sound. Your willingness to swallow the hard line description hook, line and sinker simply feeds mutual intolerance and makes life harder for those Muslims who do not buy that c**p. Christianity (let alone Jesus) does not teach what the IFB folks insist it does (nor what the "strict" Roman Catholics insist it does). And Islam (or Muhammad PBUH) does not teach whatever a particular bunch of "clerics" (Ayatollahs) or "seminarians" (Taliban) insist it does.

You're comparing apples and oranges, Haruo.

The Imams and Ayatollahs are Islam. The small communities of Muslims that you encounter in the US are, for the most part, isolated from the core of the religion itself, not representative of it, and in most cases, are probably considered heretics and infidels by most segments of Islam.

I went to a seminar at Rice University several years ago on Understanding Islam. It wasn't as apologetic as some of the comments on this board, and it was pretty easy to distinguish between the various perspectives. There is a fringe of Islam that tolerates Christians, as well as a fringe of Islam that thinks it is their duty to murder infidels. But what is more telling about the core beliefs is what happens when a family member converts. Even the highly educated, Americanized Muslims disown famly members who reject the faith, and their reaction to perceived heresy is much more hard line fundamentalist in nature than the furthest to the right Baptists.

I do not feed intolerance. If someone hates me because of what I have chosen to believe or not to believe, intolerance is their problem, not mine.

Several years ago, I participated in a program of religious dialogue in Houston, the "Amazing Faiths Project." The dinner for the first group gathering was held at the home of a D of C pastor. I was in a group of eight that included four Christians, two Muslims and two Jews. The Muslims brought their own utensils, would not sit at the table with us, and went through some ritual when the scripture was read. OK. I can respect that. But they were barely tolerant.