Pressler says it started at2nd Houston with Johnny Baugh

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Pressler says it started at2nd Houston with Johnny Baugh

Postby Stephen Fox » Thu Apr 17, 2014 4:59 pm

And what Pressler called a Whitewash committee on Ralph Elliot. See the story at www.abpnews.com

Lot more to come on this one. Way passed time for BHHS to talk to Chandler Davidson at Rice and Pressler's family history in the Texas Legislature that went after Carlyle Marney at FBC Austin in the 50's for supporting Brown V Board. And so far Sandy is the only one on this board to take a close look at Molly Worthen's Apostles of Reason. Time for the rest of you to come up to speed and Help Pressler remember better.
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Re: Pressler says it started at2nd Houston with Johnny Baugh

Postby Mrs Haruo » Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:09 pm

Fox, when are you going to bury these old bones and come into the 21st century?
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Pressler tribute to Francis Schaeffer

Postby Stephen Fox » Fri Apr 18, 2014 12:45 pm

Mrs Haruo as much as I appreciate your and Mr Haruo's appreciation for the Sacred Harp you are out to lunch on the ongoing significance of the fundamentalist takeover of the Southern Baptist Convention and continued attempts of Judge Pressler and the like to put a smiley face on it.

Again www.abpnews.com brought it up this round.

Here is Pressler's tribute to Francis Schaeffer in that report, to be compared to Molly Worthen's estimation in Apostles of Reason. Again, as I've told Sandy and David Flick, I think I'll stay with Mark Noll and Darren Dochuk on these matters, but thanks for your interest:

“Well, we’re all out looking for him and I turn the corner and there he is,” Patterson said. “And I said, ‘Vines, thank goodness I found you.’ It was about 8:30 the morning of the convention; he’s got to nominate him at 2:00. I said, ‘You’re nominating Charles.’ And Vines says, ‘I’m doing what?’ and I said ‘You’re nominating Charles Stanley for president.’ He said, ‘Charles said he wasn’t going,’ and I said, ‘He changed his mind.’ I said, ‘He’s going, and you’re nominating him.’ He said, ‘I’m not even for him,’ and I said: ‘It doesn’t make any difference. You’re nominating him.’”

Pressler said he received unexpected encouragement when a friend returned from a conference with a message for him from Francis Schaeffer, an evangelical theologian whose writing influenced a number of young preachers who went on to become leaders in the Religious Right.

“I’m shocked that Dr. Schaeffer would know who I was,” Pressler said. The message was, “You tell him that I pray for him every day, because the future of evangelical Christianity in America depends on what happens in the Southern Baptist Convention.”

“If that’s what Dr. Francis Schaeffer believed, then that jarred me,” Pressler said. “And it meant that winning was not optional; winning was mandatory.”

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Re: Pressler says it started at2nd Houston with Johnny Baugh

Postby Ed Pettibone » Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:55 pm

So what is new? Pressler has been spouting that stuff for decades. The story about what Dr. Schaffer told Pressler's friend Jess Crain. is on p 263 in A Hill On Which To Die.

I really do not understand why you and Bob Allen continue to promote his stuff. The story of the judge and his wife going to the Student apartment of Paige & Dorthy Patterson, and the visit to the Cafe du Monde starts on p 59.

John Baugh also told his story, In His book THE BATTLE FOR BAPTIST INTEGRITY
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Re: Pressler says it started at2nd Houston with Johnny Baugh

Postby Sandy » Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:44 pm

Stephen Fox wrote:Mrs Haruo as much as I appreciate your and Mr Haruo's appreciation for the Sacred Harp you are out to lunch on the ongoing significance of the fundamentalist takeover of the Southern Baptist Convention and continued attempts of Judge Pressler and the like to put a smiley face on it.


Actually, Stephen, I'd say you've been out to lunch on it for quite a while now. It happened thirty years ago. As your admired friend Molly Worthen said, the leadership of the denomination at the time was out of step theologically and socially, with most of the membership of the churches, and failed to recognize it. And as she says, and backs up with research, what happened was a re-adjustment, clearly not a takeover, because of the influence of Schaeffer and others on the conservative beliefs of most Southern Baptists.

There is no "ongoing significance" to the conservative resurgence. The SBC was largely made up of people who held conservative Christian beliefs, and would find that the works of Francis Schaeffer would resonate with them, as Worthen notes. It was never any other way. So when the leadership moved to the left, and expected everyone to follow out of sheer loyalty to the name "Southern Baptist Convention," they made a big mistake that eventually would cost them their place in convention life. It's a done deal, and nothing is going to change. The former leadership faded into organizations and groups that have had little, if any, influence on the Baptist branch of the Christian church. This is a reality that has been in existence now for more than 30 years.

Pressler, Patterson, Stanley, and the rest of them are old men now. A whole new generation of leaders is rising up, and they are as conservative as their predecessors. That's the way it is. The few of you who still keep using the term "takeover" in the discussion are welcome to go on using it, and working it into your own forecast. It has little bearing on reality.
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Re: Pressler says it started at2nd Houston with Johnny Baugh

Postby KeithE » Sat Apr 19, 2014 8:53 am

Thanks Fox for bringing up this new historical article. While I’ve long been an advocate of complete SBC/CBF separation, a little history of the "conservative resurgence" or “takeover" (or whatever you want to call it) never hurts.
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Re: Pressler says it started at2nd Houston with Johnny Baugh

Postby Ed Pettibone » Sat Apr 19, 2014 1:03 pm

KeithE wrote:Thanks Fox for bringing up this new historical article. While I’ve long been an advocate of complete SBC/CBF separation, a little history of the "conservative resurgence" or “takeover" (or whatever you want to call it) never hurts.


Ed: Keith what in the ABP story is new ? Did you see my post in this thread three post up, where I give page numbers for where Pressler said the same thing in his Book written in 1999?

And I provided a source for "the other side of the story".
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Re: Pressler says it started at2nd Houston with Johnny Baugh

Postby KeithE » Sat Apr 19, 2014 6:29 pm

Ed Pettibone wrote:
KeithE wrote:Thanks Fox for bringing up this new historical article. While I’ve long been an advocate of complete SBC/CBF separation, a little history of the "conservative resurgence" or “takeover" (or whatever you want to call it) never hurts.


Ed: Keith what in the ABP story is new ? Did you see my post in this thread three post up, where I give page numbers for where Pressler said the same thing in his Book written in 1999?

And I provided a source for "the other side of the story".


Ed,I appreciate retelling history even if it is not “new”. The occasion for Allen’s article was a panel discussion at chapel dedication service at MWBTS that Pressler spoke at, which was “news”.

Truth is our memories of events are not perfect. I know I read both Baugh’s The Battle for Baptist Integrity and Presslers’s A Hill To Die On (AHTDO) and several other accounts (my favorite is the short The Takeover by Rob James, most rigorous might be The New Crusades by David Morgan). But I did not recall all that was in Allen’s article (e.g. 2nd BC Houston being a nexus, or Vines’ misgivings about Stanley or Frances Schaeffer weighing in). Maybe you remember all, I don’t.

Also many herein probably are unaware of the history Bob Allen recounted. That's why I thank Fox.

Really no need to get on Fox for posting this. It might have been placed in Baptist History and Heritage Forum, but so what.
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Re: Pressler says it started at2nd Houston with Johnny Baugh

Postby William Thornton » Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:42 pm

There's always a market for this stuff here.

I'm not sure why Bob Allen thought there was much news in it for ABP. Lately, all the CBFers are clamoring, 'let's move on.'
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Re: Pressler says it started at2nd Houston with Johnny Baugh

Postby Sandy » Sat Apr 19, 2014 9:37 pm

William Thornton wrote: Lately, all the CBFers are clamoring, 'let's move on.'


To where would they go? They can't get too far from their one ongoing, consistent theme, trying to convince people that they are right, that the conservative resurgence came along and "took over their" convention with its personal kingdoms, and they seem to want to continue pushing that theme until someone listens and affirms it. I heard "let's move on" from CBF for more than a decade of being involved in it, it was always nice Wednesday night supper talk about what it would look like in the future, but never much more than that.
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Re: Pressler says it started at2nd Houston with Johnny Baugh

Postby William Thornton » Sun Apr 20, 2014 6:13 am

Sandy wrote:
William Thornton wrote: Lately, all the CBFers are clamoring, 'let's move on.'


To where would they go? They can't get too far from their one ongoing, consistent theme, trying to convince people that they are right, that the conservative resurgence came along and "took over their" convention with its personal kingdoms, and they seem to want to continue pushing that theme until someone listens and affirms it. I heard "let's move on" from CBF for more than a decade of being involved in it, it was always nice Wednesday night supper talk about what it would look like in the future, but never much more than that.


A considerable chunk of today's CBFers have no memory of the pre-conservative SBC but I suppose there are still enough old lions and other neverforgetters to make a go of it. Frankly, I'm a little bored by SBC historical hagiography.
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Re: Pressler says it started at2nd Houston with Johnny Baugh

Postby Ed Pettibone » Sun Apr 20, 2014 3:51 pm

Ed: William, would you explain that phrase "pre conservative SBC"? When was the SBC anything other than conservative?

Also where do you here any one in the CBF clamoring "Let's Move on"? Mostly what I hear at CBF events Is "We have moved on and we are doing great things but we have not arrived", and reminders that like the SBC of old and new, we are not GOD's LAST & ONLY HOPE. CBF emphasis much more the need to work with other Christiana organizations and still protect and project our Baptist Identity.
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Re: Pressler says it started at2nd Houston with Johnny Baugh

Postby Neil Heath » Sun Apr 20, 2014 7:38 pm

I have no idea where people think such talk is coming from after all these years. Almost all my contacts are with CBF people and I don't hear it from the leadership or from others. I'm personal friends with all the state staff, and it never comes up in our conversations. I'm serving my third year of a 3-year term on the state Coordinating Council. I can't say that I've heard any "let's move on" talk during my time there. That group is a good mix of young people with no direct connection to the past and folks like me who lived and served through the takeover years. We are energized by opportunities, not by any anger about the past. There are those among us who remember what happened with deep feelings, but that's in the past. It doesn't come up except as we might grieve over current fresh pain of friends and churches still dealing with the SBC/GBC world--and those are getting fewer every year.

I think we stopped looking back a long time ago in favor of asking where we can go from here, and how can we best serve Christ today with the resources at hand while developing more resources. Our frustrations are directed at having more ministry doors open than we can walk thru. We celebrated our 20th anniversary last year, and our energy is focused in positive directions for the future. A task force has spent the past year looking at where we should focus next, along with the structures that will best serve those goals. A lot of good stuff is happening, but nobody is wasting time on the past.

That "one consistent theme" Sandy described may have been there when he was a part of CBF in TX, but it's no longer a part of the world I know, the people I spend time with, or the meetings I attend.
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Re: Pressler says it started at2nd Houston with Johnny Baugh

Postby Sandy » Sun Apr 20, 2014 7:50 pm

That doesn't come across from CBF's press releases, especially such as the one Stephen posted here. It doesn't sound like "we've moved on" it sounds like "the meanies won and we can't get past it." Every time I hear the word "takeover" it underlines and emphasizes the fact that CBF not only hasn't moved on, but there is still resentment over it. I can't figure out how people who belong to, and have full voting rights in an organization can "take over" something they have every right and ability to lead according to the existing rules, but that's an attitude that speaks a lot louder than the words, "We've moved on and we're doing great things." It says "we haven't moved on and we have an inferiority complex about it."

Bob Allen is a CBF, ABP writer and editor, and it must be coming from somewhere for him to bring it up as frequently as he does.
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Re: Pressler says it started at2nd Houston with Johnny Baugh

Postby William Thornton » Sun Apr 20, 2014 8:05 pm

There were several pieces lately, Ed. A few by Gushee and by some CBF younger types. I don't know why Allen carried this story, frankly. I [almost] never bring it up here myself.
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Re: Pressler says it started at2nd Houston with Johnny Baugh

Postby KeithE » Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:00 pm

While we are doing a new thing, it never hurts to review history.

Allen brought it up because Pressler retold aspects of the story to the Midwest BTS panel. No big deal on either’s part.

And Fox just posted Allen’s article. I appreciated it because it remind me or perhaps informed for the first time about certain apparent facts I had forgotten or never knew. Again no big deal.
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Re: Pressler says it started at2nd Houston with Johnny Baugh

Postby Sandy » Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:13 pm

If CBF has moved on, then why would Pressler and Patterson's reminiscing, or even making an appearance at Midwestern, be newsworthy for them? There was nothing new in anything that Pressler said, nothing inaccurate, and nothing that a group that has "moved on" would be interested in reading about.
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Re: Pressler says it started at2nd Houston with Johnny Baugh

Postby KeithE » Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:27 pm

Sandy wrote:If CBF has moved on, then why would Pressler and Patterson's reminiscing, or even making an appearance at Midwestern, be newsworthy for them? There was nothing new in anything that Pressler said, nothing inaccurate, and nothing that a group that has "moved on" would be interested in reading about.

I was.
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Re: Pressler says it started at2nd Houston with Johnny Baugh

Postby Ed Pettibone » Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:38 pm

Sandy wrote:That doesn't come across from CBF's press releases, especially such as the one Stephen posted here. It doesn't sound like "we've moved on" it sounds like "the meanies won and we can't get past it." Every time I hear the word "takeover" it underlines and emphasizes the fact that CBF not only hasn't moved on, but there is still resentment over it. I can't figure out how people who belong to, and have full voting rights in an organization can "take over" something they have every right and ability to lead according to the existing rules, but that's an attitude that speaks a lot louder than the words, "We've moved on and we're doing great things." It says "we haven't moved on and we have an inferiority complex about it."

Bob Allen is a CBF, ABP writer and editor, and it must be coming from somewhere for him to bring it up as frequently as he does.


Ed: Sandy what CBF press release did Steve post. What I see at the start of this thread is a link to an ABP article by their news Editor Bob Allen, who like our friend Bruce Gourley can often be found in the press room at CBF assemblies but neither of them are employees of CBF. True CBF does contribute to ABP along with a number of other partnering organizations. Bob Allen/ABP may or may not carry a Press release from CBF but Allen does not write those. CBF press releases these days are more likely to be produced buy another BL.com participant, Aaron Weaver, aka, Big Daddy Weave. That is why I question Allen's publishing this story. But ABP is his baby.

From their site: ABPnews/Herald was created by the January 2014 merger of The Religious Herald, the 185-year-old newsjournal for Baptists in Virginia and the Mid-Atlantic, and ABPnews, founded in 1990 as Associated Baptist Press, the first and only independent news service created by and for Baptists.

This historic agreement emerged from a shared conviction that we could best serve Baptist Christians and churches in the Mid-Atlantic region and around the world by collaborating rather than competing for readers and resources. The merger builds upon our respective strengths while consolidating and streamlining core operations, eliminating duplications, and achieving economies of scale. It also equips us to embrace the challenges of dramatic changes in Baptist life, in religious journalism and in communication technologies.

To learn more about the merger, click here. (EP) This link did not copy. To find it go to the ABOUT section of ABP's Header.

ABPnews/Herald is an autonomous, nonprofit news organization that offers news, features and opinion articles every business day for a global audience of Baptists and other Christians at ABPnews.com and its companion site, the ABPnews Blog.
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Re: Pressler says it started at2nd Houston with Johnny Baugh

Postby Sandy » Mon Apr 21, 2014 6:16 am

OK. We'll disconnect the two, except that I believe ABP receives a lot of its financial support from CBF. Hard to ignore other stuff that Allen writes, though, which does make a connection.

The "independent, autonomous, it's his baby" thing works, but only up to a point.
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Re: Pressler says it started at2nd Houston with Johnny Baugh

Postby Ed Pettibone » Mon Apr 21, 2014 3:45 pm

Sandy wrote:OK. We'll disconnect the two, except that I believe ABP receives a lot of its financial support from CBF. Hard to ignore other stuff that Allen writes, though, which does make a connection.

The "independent, autonomous, it's his baby" thing works, but only up to a point.


Ed: You will disconnect what two? ABP and the Herald are now a single entity.

Note the new Logo ABP News
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ABPnews/Herald was created by the January 2014 merger of The Religious Herald, the 185-year-old news journal for Baptists in Virginia and the Mid-Atlantic, and ABPnews, founded in 1990 as Associated Baptist Press, the first and only independent news service created by and for Baptists.

This historic agreement emerged from a shared conviction that we could best serve Baptist Christians and churches in the Mid-Atlantic region and around the world by collaborating rather than competing for readers and resources. The merger builds upon our respective strengths while consolidating and streamlining core operations, eliminating duplications, and achieving economies of scale. It also equips us to embrace the challenges of dramatic changes in Baptist life, in religious journalism and in communication technologies.

ABPnews/Herald is an autonomous, nonprofit news organization that offers news, features and opinion articles every business day for a global audience of Baptists and other Christians at ABPnews.com and its companion site, the ABPnews Blog.

As you browse our website, you will discover news and opinion articles that refer to ABPnews or to The Religious Herald, the two organizations that predated the merger. We have chosen to leave such references unaltered for historical accuracy.
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Thanks Keith

Postby Stephen Fox » Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:21 pm

After 150 years scholars are still tweaking the Civil War. Just last week on an NPR show I heard the best articulation of why it, the Civil War mattered I've ever heard, It registered for the first time.

So it is with the historical significance of the SBC Takeover. Keith understands, I am disappointed Neil Heath doesn't have a better apprecaiton of history understood, and I gave up on Pettibone as being anything more than pettifoggery a long time ago.

I am proud to say I am in Randall Balmer's corner in this brilliant review of Worthen up last week at the Century. Sandy can keep beatin his head against the wall on Francis Schaeefer, there is not much more I can do to help him.

As for Thornton, all I got to say is a just sent a tribute note to my GHS tennis coach for whom the courts are being named in Camden S.C,, Roger a 63 classmate of Yates Frady's son Marshall.

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Re: Pressler says it started at2nd Houston with Johnny Baugh

Postby Neil Heath » Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:42 pm

Not sure what you mean about me, Stephen. I lived it, and know the history pretty well.
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Re: Pressler says it started at2nd Houston with Johnny Baugh

Postby Sandy » Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:28 pm

No bias there, huh, Stephen? A review of one pseudo-intellectual by another. It's like bringing your own cheerleaders to the ball game.

You really need to read something by Schaeffer, especially after reading Worthen. It will be a refreshing, and enlightening experience. He's a dynamic and inspirational writer. She writes like a professor would lecture. Until you've read Schaeffer yourself, all you are offering here is your own biased view. Read Schaeffer and you will at least see why his ideas were so captivating to Southern Baptists, and why Worthen concedes that the SBC shift was inevitable, and wasn't a "takeover," but merely a leadership adjustment.

The ongoing significance of the SBC conservative resurgence is that it turned a major denomination from a path toward liberalism, and back to its conservative roots. Schaeffer was a contributor to that, and if you read him, you'll see why.
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Did Sandy miss the Century link by Balmer

Postby Stephen Fox » Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:39 pm

The Balmer review of April 15?

If so he needs to read it. Schaffer doesn't stack up.

I hope Lamar and KeithE and Neil, even Thornton read Worthen soon as Sandy will never take my word. Either Sandy's reading comprehension is much worse than any of us ever imagined, or he is so hell bent on spinning Worthen into saying something she clearly does not endorse, even concede.
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