Lifeway Calculations

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Re: Lifeway Calculations

Postby Dave Roberts » Wed Mar 05, 2014 5:05 pm

rfuss wrote:I taught that lesson on Feb. 16, and I don't remember anything about no one being saved prior to Christ. My teacher support material from Lifeway was the teacher's book and commentary. I read both completely and do not remember anything about no one being saved before Christ (I would have challenged that). I suspect she was reading from some supporting material material that I do not have.

rfuss

She may have been using additional supportive materials, but I did not see her change books. I did not have access to the literature.
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Re: Lifeway Calculations

Postby Ed Pettibone » Wed Mar 05, 2014 6:17 pm

Dave Roberts wrote:
rfuss wrote:I taught that lesson on Feb. 16, and I don't remember anything about no one being saved prior to Christ. My teacher support material from Lifeway was the teacher's book and commentary. I read both completely and do not remember anything about no one being saved before Christ (I would have challenged that). I suspect she was reading from some supporting material material that I do not have.

rfuss

She may have been using additional supportive materials, but I did not see her change books. I did not have access to the literature.


Ed: Dave did you see this exchange back on Feb 19:

William Thornton wrote:It's the Explore the Bible series but I haven't been able to find a copy yet.


Ed: William is it Lifeway's Explore the Bible Series or does it come from the

Founders Ministries | Sunday School Teacher Helps
http://www.founders.org/ss/

These helps are provided as a service of Founders Ministries to teachers who use the LifeWay Explore the Bible and Bible Studies for Life Sunday School

I am less than impressed with Lifeway (although they may have some decent stuff.
But an interpretation of it with Tom Aschol's imprimatur is an immediate red flag for me.


With Tom Nettles as the major interpreter for the Sunday School Teacher helps by the Founders ministries, I am even more suspicious that this is the source of the materials the lady you encountered was using.
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Re: Lifeway Calculations

Postby Dave Roberts » Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:30 pm

Ed, you may be right. It certainly doesn't sound right for the SBC after the Calvinism efforts from Frank Page last year.
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Re: Lifeway Calculations

Postby ET » Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:55 am

Well, Sandy, I'm in the YEC crowd with you. I don't buy Dave's claim of "false evidence", nor do I intend to get into the subject. My only comment is this:

In college chemistry we got into some work on carbon dating. Well, since none of us had been around for "billions" of years, at least two critical assumptions had to be made. One was assuming the decay rate to be constant. Another was assuming a starting quantity of carbon.

Of course, the obvious scientific questions to ask are: How do you know the decay rate has been constant over "billions" of years and how do you know the starting amount of carbon. So any "s.w.a.g." (Scientific Wild-A$$ed Guess) as to the age of the earth rests completely on assumptions which, if wrong, obliterate or significantly alter the old-age premise.

In the end, for me, it comes down to this: Man is a stupid creature (compared to God's knowledge). I have lived long enough in my short 50 years to observe that man in all his scientific "glory" is a vain, stupid creature. What man claimed as "settled science" in one age has been revised and continues to revise. God created man. God created science, the universe and all of the scientific laws we document. However, the created is not superior to the Creator. HE is superior to his creation and operates outside of the boundaries which are imposed on man.

To claim that God may have put "false evidence" in front of us implies that because the currently fashionable explanation for our origins can't, in our infinite ignorance, seemingly be reconciled with God's account of creation in Genesis just means to me that man is trying to explain with his finite mind the creative power of the Infinite One.
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Re: Lifeway Calculations

Postby Sandy » Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:04 am

ET wrote:To claim that God may have put "false evidence" in front of us implies that because the currently fashionable explanation for our origins can't, in our infinite ignorance, seemingly be reconciled with God's account of creation in Genesis just means to me that man is trying to explain with his finite mind the creative power of the Infinite One.


I don't believe that the evidence that is put in front of us is false. I believe that the scientific tools which we have developed so far are not capable of reading the evidence that has been placed in front of us. It's comparable to historical facts. For a long time, critics of the accuracy of the transmission of the scripture rested their claims on the fact that there was no archaeological evidence to verify the Biblical record based on names that were referenced in historical settings. Post WW2, the amount of archaeological evidence that has been produced has pretty much universally verified the historical references of the New Testament, and an increasing amount of evidence is matching up with the old. That is a clear illustration of the limited scope of human knowledge, as opposed to the infinite God, and confirms for me a philosophical approach that recognizes education as a process of revelation, rather than one of invention, is the only way to discover truth.

One of the science professors I had in college, whom I respected tremendously, characterized his teaching with the statement that good science never claims to be conclusive science. His testimony carried a lot of weight, considering he was a committed Christian evidenced by his church ministry, and chose to teach at a Southern Baptist college, having graduated summa cum laude from Cal Tech and Stanford. He used to say that if human science efforts were conclusive, then medical practice would look a whole lot different than it does today, since it would be operating under assumptions and theories that have been proven dead wrong since they were first advanced. As far as dealing with creation, his view was that science which does not acknowledge the existence of God cannot discover truth, no matter what it finds, because it is operating off a set of false assumptions and theories from the starting point. That's why the conclusive pieces of evidence to prove the various theories of the origins of humanity cannot be found.
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Re: Lifeway Calculations

Postby Dave Roberts » Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:25 pm

The false evidence to test our faith claim is not mine. It was in the writing of a prof at SBTS who was defending YEC. His name has escaped me, but the claim was that God put false evidence there to test our faith.
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Re: Lifeway Calculations

Postby Haruo » Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:38 pm

Well, according to the Book of Job, Satan works for God. Prosecuting Attorney in the Justice Dept., I believe. "The Bible says it, and that settles it." Never mind that much of the Bible takes a different view. In the case of YEC, the main support is a p'shat reading of the first two-three chapters of Genesis, and even there a p'shat reading of the first account is contradicted in a p'shat reading of the second.
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Re: Lifeway Calculations

Postby ET » Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:41 pm

Dave Roberts wrote:The false evidence to test our faith claim is not mine. It was in the writing of a prof at SBTS who was defending YEC. His name has escaped me, but the claim was that God put false evidence there to test our faith.

OK, Dave, noted.
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Re: Lifeway Calculations

Postby William Thornton » Fri Mar 07, 2014 6:10 pm

...and I am an old earth creationist. One of these days I will do an OE/YE topic, we've done them for years. I seldom find fruitful discussions possible because YE proponents generally follow the pattern below:

Young earth position = bible believer
Old earth position = rejects scripture, either an unbeliever or foolhardy in siding with unbelievers

I would expect a profitable discussion here and see no way sandy could hang it all on evil corporate miscreants and my fellow greedy capitalist pig ET though opposite me in this has shown a capacity for sober thinking.
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Re: Lifeway Calculations

Postby Sandy » Fri Mar 07, 2014 6:24 pm

William Thornton wrote:Young earth position = bible believer
Old earth position = rejects scripture, either an unbeliever or foolhardy in siding with unbelievers


I would not say that the old earth position rejects scripture, but I'm not absolutely dogmatic on YEC. There are some considerations in the scriptural record that lack conclusive context clues especially related to time.

William Thornton wrote:I would expect a profitable discussion here and see no way sandy could hang it all on evil corporate miscreants and my fellow greedy capitalist pig ET though opposite me in this has shown a capacity for sober thinking.
:lol:

Let me think about it for a while. I'll get back to you on that.
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Re: Lifeway Calculations

Postby Chris » Sat Mar 08, 2014 5:19 pm

In the Sunday School lesson I am teaching, tomorrow -- Smith & Helwys Formations series, --- writer Joshua Hearne (a CBF missionary) cites James Ussher's calculations. He doesn't endorse it, merely uses it as an example of "our preoccupation with this story". Fortunately, I have enough supplemental information from Guy Sayles and Cecil Sherman, on Genesis 1, that I think I have enuf material to fill 40 minutes. I will use the Ussher story only if I'm running "long" on time.
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Inerrancy is Horsepoop and SBC 5th tier denomination

Postby Stephen Fox » Wed Mar 12, 2014 9:34 pm

That's one thing Lifeway SS literature proves. Tom Nettles and Mohler have made a laughing stock out of SBC SS lit. Giberson and Stephens, I have been shouting their names for three years now and their book The Anointed.

Bring Mohler and Nettles to Duke to discuss this mess with G and S and Molly Worthen. Most Public school teachers with college prep kids have to dismiss the SBC now as a laughing stock.
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Re: Inerrancy is Horsepoop and SBC 5th tier denomination

Postby William Thornton » Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:28 am

Stephen Fox wrote:That's one thing Lifeway SS literature proves. Tom Nettles and Mohler have made a laughing stock out of SBC SS lit. Giberson and Stephens, I have been shouting their names for three years now and their book The Anointed.

Bring Mohler and Nettles to Duke to discuss this mess with G and S and Molly Worthen. Most Public school teachers with college prep kids have to dismiss the SBC now as a laughing stock.


Stephen is personal friends with "most public school teachers with college prep kids", of course, and can make that assertion from his own knowledge base.
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Re: Inerrancy is Horsepoop and SBC 5th tier denomination

Postby Sandy » Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:04 am

Stephen Fox wrote:That's one thing Lifeway SS literature proves. Tom Nettles and Mohler have made a laughing stock out of SBC SS lit. Giberson and Stephens, I have been shouting their names for three years now and their book The Anointed.

Bring Mohler and Nettles to Duke to discuss this mess with G and S and Molly Worthen. Most Public school teachers with college prep kids have to dismiss the SBC now as a laughing stock.


:lol:

Given the quality of public education in this country these days, you couldn't pay Lifeway a better compliment, Stephen.
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Thornton and Sandy

Postby Stephen Fox » Fri Mar 14, 2014 4:49 pm

Let me know when both of you have read Gioberson and Stephens. G and S have good chapter on kid from Athens Ga Christian school who goes to smart fundy camp for tenth graders in Dayton Tn so that should be worth the price of the book for Thornton right there to see what is going on in the neighborhood.

To Sandy's Credit, he has waded through at least first few chapters of Molly Worthen before he got chapped on Francis Schaeffer. Still waitin on Thornton.

FTR have a major public school event coming up soon. Will let you know how it goes down. May See President Clinton and his Sec Ed on the same Day. A Double Whammy in My world.

Hope all else is well!
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Re: Thornton and Sandy

Postby Sandy » Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:18 pm

Stephen Fox wrote:Let me know when both of you have read Gioberson and Stephens. G and S have good chapter on kid from Athens Ga Christian school who goes to smart fundy camp for tenth graders in Dayton Tn so that should be worth the price of the book for Thornton right there to see what is going on in the neighborhood.

To Sandy's Credit, he has waded through at least first few chapters of Molly Worthen before he got chapped on Francis Schaeffer. Still waitin on Thornton.

FTR have a major public school event coming up soon. Will let you know how it goes down. May See President Clinton and his Sec Ed on the same Day. A Double Whammy in My world.

Hope all else is well!


If your really interested, I can provide you with a comprehensive set of data, including testing and research, that shows how much better students in Christian schools perform academically than their peers in the public education system. You might be able to find an example, here and there, of a Christian school that doesn't pay attention to the standards, but that's rare, and the exception rather than the rule. Your continued assertions, without supporting evidence, slamming the academic quality of the education provided in SBC theology schools, are bogus.

I'm guessing you haven't read anything from Schaeffer yet, have you? I'd also suggest Loving God With All Your Mind, by J. P. Moreland. You've been suggesting reading lists for years, it's time you gave your own suggestions a try.
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My reading list

Postby Stephen Fox » Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:12 pm

come approved by James Wood, Harvard Literary Critic, the New York Review of Books and the Christian Century.

I can't remember if you read the professing Christian and Pulitzer Prize Winner Marilynne Robinson's novel, Gilead, but I hope you did. Lot of good theology in it.

Time is short. You should read Giberson and Stephens; Thanks for reading Worthen but it seems you missed the point.

Charles Marsh work on Bonhoeffer and Randall Balmer on President Carter to be published next month. I hope you read it and get word to your friends at FBC Spartanburg.

I just finished Pat Conroy's The Death of Santini and returned it to the Crossville, Alabama Lyberry. I hope Thornton reads it soon. Lot in it a good Georgia boy will like, even a reference to Yates Frady's son!
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