stained glass windows of CR leaders

Discuss current news and trends taking place in the Southern Baptist Convention.

Moderator: William Thornton

stained glass windows of CR leaders

Postby William Thornton » Mon Dec 16, 2013 7:10 am

Stained-glass windows honor leaders of Fort Worth seminary

The will immortalize Baptists who helped effect the culture change to more conservative attitudes in the Southern Baptist Convention, [Dorothy] Patterson said.


Now this is ridiculous. We should stick with Jesus and the apostles.
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 10461
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: stained glass windows of CR leaders

Postby Sandy » Mon Dec 16, 2013 7:44 am

It looks like a donor is a bit on the eccentric side.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 6241
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:10 pm
Location: Rural Western Pennsylvania

Re: stained glass windows of CR leaders

Postby Dave Roberts » Mon Dec 16, 2013 8:01 am

Are they adding a room to the chapel for Paige's taxidermy collection? :lol:
"God will never be less than He is and does not need to be more" (John Koessler)

My blog: http://emporiadave.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Dave Roberts
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5956
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 2:01 pm
Location: Southside, VA

Re: stained glass windows of CR leaders

Postby Ed Pettibone » Mon Dec 16, 2013 8:09 am

"Dorothy and Paige Patterson will be portrayed together in a window set to be made next year, Young said."

Ed: That will take a good sized window.
User avatar
Ed Pettibone
 
Posts: 11188
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:46 pm
Location: .Burnt Hills, New York, Capital Area

Re: stained glass windows of CR leaders

Postby Lou » Mon Dec 16, 2013 4:45 pm

Oooh, Ed, that was harsh.

And funny. :lol:
Lou
 
Posts: 61
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2013 4:55 pm

Re: stained glass windows of CR leaders

Postby David Flick » Tue Dec 17, 2013 1:04 am

William Thornton wrote:Stained-glass windows honor leaders of Fort Worth seminary
The will immortalize Baptists who helped effect the culture change to more conservative attitudes in the Southern Baptist Convention, [Dorothy] Patterson said.

Now this is ridiculous. We should stick with Jesus and the apostles.

    It is ridiculous. Here's a quote in the article that caught my eye:
    Terry Evans wrote:O.S. Hawkins, director of GuideStone, a Christian-based financial services company, and his wife, the Bible study teacher and author Susie Hawkins, are depicted side by side near Criswell’s window.

    Hawkins was an exact contemporary of mine in the course of my seminary training. I sat with him through several classes in route to achieving my M.Div at SWBTS. As an academic, he was a very poor student. Pitiful would be a better descriptor. But as an arrogant climber in denominational politics, he had few peers. It wasn't a surprise to me when he succeeded Joel Gregory in '93. (Interestingly, I also had numerous classes and graduated from SWBTS with Gregory) Hawkins was at Dallas FBC from '93 to '97. I suspect that he experienced some of what Gregory experienced at the church and moved to Guidestone as an out. I have no clue why he lasted only 4 years at DFBC. Anyway, IMO, a stained glass window honoring Hawkins is a joke. I never had any respect for him. Actually, honoring any of the takeover gang is a joke. You're correct. They should stick Jesus and the apostles. OTOH, I long ago disavowed SWBTS as being a quality institution for higher theological education. So what should I care? I honestly don't care a whit...
User avatar
David Flick
Site Admin
 
Posts: 7932
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 1:55 pm
Location: Oklahoma City, OK

Re: stained glass windows of CR leaders

Postby Mrs Haruo » Tue Dec 17, 2013 3:00 am

In mah humble opinion, this winda project will take some mahhty big windas, and some mighty big wind. Or was it a lot of wind that got them folks up there in the first place. Bless their hearts. I think I'd better hush mah mouth now before I get into any mo' trouble. :lol:
Don't despair if your job and your rewards are few, remember that the mighty oak was once a nut like you!
User avatar
Mrs Haruo
 
Posts: 1140
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:54 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: stained glass windows of CR leaders

Postby Timothy Bonney » Tue Dec 17, 2013 1:05 pm

Unbelievable!
Tim Bonney
Senior Pastor
Grace United Methodist Church
Sioux City, Iowa
Blog - http://circuitwriter.org
User avatar
Timothy Bonney
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3626
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:17 am
Location: Sioux City, Iowa

Re: stained glass windows of CR leaders

Postby Dave Roberts » Tue Dec 17, 2013 3:48 pm

Timothy Bonney wrote:Unbelievable!

Wrong, Tim; it's very believable.
"God will never be less than He is and does not need to be more" (John Koessler)

My blog: http://emporiadave.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Dave Roberts
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5956
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 2:01 pm
Location: Southside, VA

Re: stained glass windows of CR leaders

Postby David Flick » Wed Dec 18, 2013 3:11 am

Timothy Bonney wrote:Unbelievable!

    Dave Roberts wrote:Wrong, Tim; it's very believable.

      I agree, Dave, it's very believable.
User avatar
David Flick
Site Admin
 
Posts: 7932
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 1:55 pm
Location: Oklahoma City, OK

Re: stained glass windows of CR leaders

Postby Timothy Bonney » Wed Dec 18, 2013 10:40 am

Well it amazes me that they don't know how bad it looks.

I understand that a priest in Pope Francis' home town tried to put up a huge statue of the Pope. It is my understanding that he personally called the priest and ordered him to take it down. He was concerned that he would receive undue adulation from such a thing.
Tim Bonney
Senior Pastor
Grace United Methodist Church
Sioux City, Iowa
Blog - http://circuitwriter.org
User avatar
Timothy Bonney
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3626
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:17 am
Location: Sioux City, Iowa

Re: stained glass windows of CR leaders

Postby Sandy » Wed Dec 18, 2013 1:21 pm

First of all, it's a silly idea, and I can't believe that the seminary's development team isn't trying to move the donors to another project that will be of more direct benefit to the students and their theological education. Statues and stained glass are aesthetic touches, and they're pretty, but if a donor funded a scholarship or a professorship, it would be more beneficial to the students and have a greater impact in the long run.

That being said, it would not take me long, if I wanted to look, for similar examples of such silliness among educational institutions operated by Christian groups and denominations of all theological varieties and stripes. Everyone has their prominente and their mutual admiration societies that hand out plaques and awards, and pats on the back, to people who have not really done all that much except open their checkbook or be a good friend to someone who has a big checkbook, or ascend to leadership with the right mixture of supporters, detractors, moxie and vanity.

"Honorary" doctorates come to mind. When I think back on the individuals who were awarded one, in front of a chapel service at my Southern Baptist alma mater, it was the same sort of thing as this. Someone who, in the opinion of those who had the power to grant them, was a great influence peddler in the right way, or who wrote a gigantic check to the school. During my sophomore year, W.A. Criswell came to speak at the 50th anniversary of the state convention, which was also the retirement party for the executive director who was one of his protégés. He spoke in chapel the next day, and the school gave him an honorary doctorate, I guess so he would remember po' lil' us out in Arizona. That made the moderates on the trustee board and in the administration mad, so they invited Ken Chafin to come and speak in chapel and gave him an honorary doctorate as well. This stained glass window thing is more of that kind of stuff. Everyone does it and should be ashamed of it.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 6241
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:10 pm
Location: Rural Western Pennsylvania

Re: stained glass windows of CR leaders

Postby Timothy Bonney » Wed Dec 18, 2013 1:48 pm

Sandy, while I agree with you that everyone does it to some extent, things like stained glass windows and paintings are usually done after your death, or after your retirement at the earliest. They also aren't sponsored or encouraged by the people who will be honored. It sounds to me like Mrs. Patterson at least is right in the middle of this on behalf of Paige and it looks really really bad. Maybe everyone does it to some extent but this is approaching jumping the shark.
Tim Bonney
Senior Pastor
Grace United Methodist Church
Sioux City, Iowa
Blog - http://circuitwriter.org
User avatar
Timothy Bonney
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3626
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:17 am
Location: Sioux City, Iowa

Re: stained glass windows of CR leaders

Postby Sandy » Wed Dec 18, 2013 6:45 pm

I think the church has to be very careful when it does anything to honor or memorialize individuals, regardless of what it is for. Being a servant is an expectation and an obligation, and doing stuff like this takes the focus off Jesus and puts it on something else, literally as well as figuratively. What constitutes the kind of service that the church is supposed to consider above and beyond the call of duty, that someone would be memorialized for it? I can't think of anything.

Usually, something like this is done as a memorial, after the person has died, but certainly not all of it is, and the SBC leadership and what's happening at the chapel at Southwestern is not the only example of such in the religious world. I think there are plenty of examples that could be cited in comparison.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 6241
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:10 pm
Location: Rural Western Pennsylvania

Re: stained glass windows of CR leaders

Postby Timothy Bonney » Wed Dec 18, 2013 8:43 pm

I agree with you Sandy. Now I know there are paintings of former Presidents at seminaries I've attended. But there is something about stained glass windows of still living people that is just too much.
Tim Bonney
Senior Pastor
Grace United Methodist Church
Sioux City, Iowa
Blog - http://circuitwriter.org
User avatar
Timothy Bonney
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3626
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:17 am
Location: Sioux City, Iowa

Re: stained glass windows of CR leaders

Postby Mrs Haruo » Wed Dec 18, 2013 11:29 pm

Are they so totally so out of touch with the rank and file ordinary Joes and Josephines of this world that they have no clue of how self-serving this is? All the more ammunition for those who think Christians are a bunch of superstitious sheep who hang their brains at the church door.
Don't despair if your job and your rewards are few, remember that the mighty oak was once a nut like you!
User avatar
Mrs Haruo
 
Posts: 1140
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:54 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: stained glass windows of CR leaders

Postby Bruce Gourley » Thu Dec 19, 2013 12:19 am

Paneful to think about, those windows are. :wink:
User avatar
Bruce Gourley
Site Admin
 
Posts: 2946
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:25 pm
Location: Montana

Re: stained glass windows of CR leaders

Postby Timothy Bonney » Thu Dec 19, 2013 12:30 am

Bruce Gourley wrote:Paneful to think about, those windows are. :wink:


LOL. :lol:
Tim Bonney
Senior Pastor
Grace United Methodist Church
Sioux City, Iowa
Blog - http://circuitwriter.org
User avatar
Timothy Bonney
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3626
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:17 am
Location: Sioux City, Iowa

Re: stained glass windows of CR leaders

Postby Dave Roberts » Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:33 am

In various blogs and FB postings from the CR, I have not encountered a defense of this move. Interesting.....
"God will never be less than He is and does not need to be more" (John Koessler)

My blog: http://emporiadave.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Dave Roberts
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5956
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 2:01 pm
Location: Southside, VA

Re: stained glass windows of CR leaders

Postby Sandy » Thu Dec 19, 2013 1:00 pm

Dave Roberts wrote:In various blogs and FB postings from the CR, I have not encountered a defense of this move. Interesting.....


This post here is the first I've even seen of it. I thought the chapel was done.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 6241
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:10 pm
Location: Rural Western Pennsylvania

Re: stained glass windows of CR leaders

Postby Ed Pettibone » Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:25 pm

Sandy wrote:I think the church has to be very careful when it does anything to honor or memorialize individuals, regardless of what it is for. Being a servant is an expectation and an obligation, and doing stuff like this takes the focus off Jesus and puts it on something else, literally as well as figuratively. What constitutes the kind of service that the church is supposed to consider above and beyond the call of duty, that someone would be memorialized for it? I can't think of anything.

Usually, something like this is done as a memorial, after the person has died, but certainly not all of it is, and the SBC leadership and what's happening at the chapel at Southwestern is not the only example of such in the religious world. I think there are plenty of examples that could be cited in comparison.


Ed: So Sandy, would you cite three examples that would be comparable. Maybe statues of Criswell at FBC Dallas, but where outside the CR leadership.
User avatar
Ed Pettibone
 
Posts: 11188
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:46 pm
Location: .Burnt Hills, New York, Capital Area

Re: stained glass windows of CR leaders

Postby Timothy Bonney » Fri Dec 20, 2013 9:39 am

Sandy hasn't responded. But I'm guessing he is thinking of statues or stain glass of founders of denominations. I'm pretty sure I've seen Roger Williams immortalized in stained glass as I have John Wesley.

The big difference is that this was done after their death and not as something they promoted themselves. If a church wants a painting or stained glass of a dearly departed pastor I can see that. But if I were to have a stained glass piece commissioned of myself or even allow my church to do so I'd be deserving of ridicule.
Tim Bonney
Senior Pastor
Grace United Methodist Church
Sioux City, Iowa
Blog - http://circuitwriter.org
User avatar
Timothy Bonney
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3626
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:17 am
Location: Sioux City, Iowa

Re: stained glass windows of CR leaders

Postby Sandy » Fri Dec 20, 2013 12:36 pm

It doesn't just have to be a statue, or stained glass. Religious institutions and organizations have all kinds of ways for extending honor to their preferred insiders and "prominent" personages. Honorary doctorates was an example I already used in this thread. There are the back-patting kind of awards given out, including some awards named after individuals, on occasion, some of whom are still living. Buildings get named after individuals, sometimes still living, though those are usually reserved for big contributors.

Google it and see how many religious institutions and organizations other than the SBC have done something similar. You won't have to look very far.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 6241
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:10 pm
Location: Rural Western Pennsylvania

Re: stained glass windows of CR leaders

Postby Haruo » Fri Dec 20, 2013 1:08 pm

But honorary doctorates are expected to be used this way. You wouldn't give an honorary doctorate (even posthumously) to Jesus or St. Paul.
Haruo (呂須•春男) = ᎭᎷᎣ = Leland Bryant Ross
Repeal the language taxLearn and use Esperanto
Fremont Baptist ChurchMy hymnblog
User avatar
Haruo
Site Admin
 
Posts: 10036
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 8:21 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: stained glass windows of CR leaders

Postby Neil Heath » Fri Dec 20, 2013 10:36 pm

Honorary doctorates are a whole lot cheaper than stained glass windows, too!
Neil Heath
User avatar
Neil Heath
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1750
Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2006 9:39 pm
Location: Macon, GA

Next

Return to SBC News and Trends

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests