Molly Worthen on SBC Takeover, Francis Schaeffer, etc

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Re: New Furman President

Postby Ed Pettibone » Sat Feb 08, 2014 10:30 am

Stephen Fox wrote:http://foxofbama.blogspot.com/2014/02/furman-makes-history-with-first-female.html


For a more complete staight forward look at Dr. Elizabeth Davis see http://www.baylor.edu/provost/index.php?id=76078

Sounds good, but adds to my concerns regarding Texas Imperialism among Baptists.
Last edited by Ed Pettibone on Sat Feb 08, 2014 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Key quotes from first few chapters of Molly

Postby Stephen Fox » Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:27 pm

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online interview with Molly

Postby Stephen Fox » Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:39 pm

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Ed and Furman President

Postby Stephen Fox » Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:41 pm

Ed. pick up this furman chat at History forum where there is a thread devoted to Furman. I think your fears re Furman new Hire and Texas are misplaced but we can take it up there.
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Re: Ed and Furman President

Postby Ed Pettibone » Tue Feb 11, 2014 4:02 pm

Stephen Fox wrote:Ed. pick up this furman chat at History forum where there is a thread devoted to Furman. I think your fears re Furman new Hire and Texas are misplaced but we can take it up there.


Ed: Steve I am really not the concerned about Furman. I expressed my trepidation re; the newest Texas import. Now I am willing to watch it play out.
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Ed's Texas view is not relevant to Furman new Hire

Postby Stephen Fox » Fri Feb 14, 2014 2:11 pm

She is a member of Calvary Baptist Church which gave Julie Pennington Russell to FBC Decatur. So Ed you biases are out to lunch re the Texas Connection to Furman's New President.

There is a link to the ABP story in the Furman thread in the History section of this site if you care to take it up there or better inform yourself.
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Baptist sacramentalism, another twist

Postby Stephen Fox » Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:15 pm

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Re:A serious historical correction

Postby Ed Pettibone » Sun Feb 16, 2014 8:25 pm

A goggle search for something else brought me back to this thread, in reading through I found this quote from Tim Bonney "I started at SBTS in 1986 and was in the last year or so of Roy Honeycutts time there. ... I transferred to MBTS in 1987."

For the record Tim, 1986 was more than a few years short of the end to Roy Honeycutt's time at SBTS. Bruce Gourley and I along with a few hundred others Graduated from SBTS in May of 1992, and Roy singed both of our diplomas, and presided over the graduation exercises with President Jimmy Carter as the featured speaker. To that point it was the largest class to ever graduate from THE SOUTHERN BAPTIST THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY . I am not sure they have ever gotten back to having a class as large as ours. I do know they had not done so by the time Trudy Received her M.Div. in may of 1998.
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Re: Latest on SBC Takeover, excerpt from upcoming 2014 book

Postby Gene Scarborough » Mon Feb 17, 2014 10:46 pm

Gentlemen ---

It is hard to be nice to Steve Fox at times, but he does have his place.

The title drew my attention because I have experience with the historical redaction now being attempted by Dr. Nathan Finn at SEBTS. This particular one has to do with N. Rocky Mount Baptist Church in Rocky Mount, NC. I pastored that church in its final years until it was obvious that dissolution and sale of the property to a good black congregation was the only option they really had.

This church became famous in the annals of the SBC for a late-50's controversy over "who was the real SBC congregation." It involved a fundamentalist Preacher out of Bob Jones University who snuck into a regular old Baptist church of Mill Village variety. It had a monster SS and was the hub of the community. His "wedge" was the RSV vs. KJV (perfect) Bible.

The case went all the way to the NC State Supreme Court on appeal and the Nash County decision was upheld. It drew from witnesses as to "real Baptist" from SEBTS professors / local pastors / a "to be" Executive Secretary for NC Baptists. It cited multiple sources --- then used to define "Baptist." The main topics cited were the definition of Autonomy and Missions --- both of which the invading Pastor ignored as he conned the slight majority into leaving the SBC and becoming Independent.

Dr. Finn is contending that this shows how Baptists wanted/had the kinds of things Conservative Resurgence wants. It is his contention that the NCBSC and others manipulated and distorted things to try and defeat the intruder. In other words, he is attempting a redaction of real and documented Baptist history --- especially in NC --- only a 45-minute ride from the town of Wake Forest and the SEBTS campus.

I quickly responded and offered him a copy of the transcript which I have. He could care less. I offered to put him in touch with older members of my church who could vouch for what I was saying --- since most of my "verbal inspiration" knowledge came from them. Again, he contended --- and then dropped the matter to my knowledge.

At least in NC, we have a legal precedent for contending the old NCBSC --- its leadership and outlook was consistent with what was believed and done in the 50's -- the "Golden Age of Baptist Growth." It really does not change the outcome of the Baptist fist fight which is certainly over. It does show how triumphalism invades life.

Dr. Finn is a young "expert." He is depending on the "New SEBTS" for his livelihood. I can't blame him for trying. In the "now removed from CBF and other Baptists" school many of us knew.

For me it is a violation of all I know and loved. I shall take time shortly to peruse the things cited by Steve. For once, it might be better to pat him on the back for "job well done" to bring this subject to the front.

When the "winners" write the history --- of course, it makes sure to defend and depict them as being "right." Right Wing --- YES / Right to keep the best of Baptists --- NO X 100.

If one considers the turmoils of the Early Church and its morphing into the Roman Catholic Church (as opposed to the Greek Orthodox first split) --- we see a clear repetition of history in my view. From Jesus with the Apostles and Paul --- to a Pope / Priests / Monasteries / Canon / etc. is an interesting journey fraught with large egos and large battles over such a silly word as "homoion" vs. "homoosion." What average church attender could give a rat's you-know-what over then --- and now.

But people and posterity deserve a better rendition of truth than what is coming from the SBC these days ---- in my view.
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Former Snyder Member on Chapter Three "Demons"

Postby Stephen Fox » Wed Feb 19, 2014 3:44 pm

Got a text this morning. Glorious day to use phrase of Master Eppes in 12 Yrs a Slave to see Snyder moving forward. I plan to email some of their former pastors and current staff in that regard soon that at least one former member is seeing the light.

Good news comes on the day I pick up a copy of the book at juco nacc.edu. Here's hoping it gains some readers here as it moves into Robeson County.
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If Worthen becomes Political

Postby Stephen Fox » Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:08 pm

it will look something like this

http://www.religiondispatches.org/archi ... on_and_me/

And I imagine she is familiar with what Duke's Tim Tyson is doing with Moral Mondays in North Carolina
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Excellent Review here

Postby Stephen Fox » Tue Feb 25, 2014 4:40 pm

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Re: Latest on SBC Takeover, excerpt from upcoming 2014 book

Postby Sandy » Tue Feb 25, 2014 10:42 pm

Gene Scarborough wrote:But people and posterity deserve a better rendition of truth than what is coming from the SBC these days ---- in my view.


I'd suggest that you read Molly Worthen's book all the way through, especially the parts where she gets into some analysis of the SBC. It's a work of opinion based on research, to be sure, but she points out that the problems that the SBC experienced were the result of a small, closed off, narrow group of rotating leaders who weren't paying attention to the direction their people and churches were heading, and got arrogant and paternalistic in their attempts to push the convention the way they wanted it to go. The conservative resurgence leaders correctly read the signs and discerned where the people were, both theologically and ideologically, and won a successive stream of elections which they used to restore the convention's conservative roots. It really is that simple, though I think Stephen wishfully dreams that she really doesn't believe what she says. Her thesis, BTW, goes well beyond Southern Baptists. It's predictable in that it is what you'd expect from a non-evangelical perspective, insightful and honest, but lacks a complete understanding of evangelical culture.

I'll warn you in advance, she doesn't always support Stephen's perspective. It will make you mad.
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Molly's segueway end of chapter 8

Postby Stephen Fox » Tue Feb 25, 2014 10:55 pm

I wish I had it in front of me, but her analysis of Francis Schaeffer perverting history the way the fundies perverted inerrancy for ecclesiastical and secular political ends; maybe it comes down to an interpretation of the text, but I didn't get the same thing you got, Sandy. In no place does she imply in my reading what Pressler and Schaeffer did was benign, a course correction; rather it was a demagged perversion of denominational history they were able to use to mobilize the unsuspecting folks in the pew.

You got in the Olson review, where in Worthen's view Al Mohler's hero Francis Schaeffer, is a charlatan. And she has nice analysis of Mark Noll's correspondence with Schaeffer in the 80s. So like I spelled out for you and Thornton, Sandy, in politics and public room on Pressler's Hill, it is you and Thornton's reading comprehension that is suspect.

I guess we have to hope Aaron Weaver and Bruce Gourley himself read and weigh in now. I do hope Scarborough reads the book carefully. Molly finishes shtron in chapters 8, 9 and ten.

OR, maybe Sandy replied before reading the Review two posts up. He skipped an excellent review link to respond to Gene and dump on me!
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Re: Latest on SBC Takeover, excerpt from upcoming 2014 book

Postby Sandy » Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:51 pm

Stephen Fox wrote:In no place does she imply in my reading what Pressler and Schaeffer did was benign, a course correction; rather it was a demagged perversion of denominational history they were able to use to mobilize the unsuspecting folks in the pew.


She does not in any way imply that the people in the pew in the SBC of the 70's were in any way "unsuspecting." She points out that by the time there was a leadership change in the SBC, the people in the pews had been influenced by the conservative direction of the broader Evangelical movement, including Shaeffer, and other notable television personalities, they were already mistrustful of the leadership, and that the conservative resurgence was an inevitable occurrence given the atmosphere in the denomination at the time. Southern Baptists in the pew were more familiar with the description of "inerrancy" that was part of the Evangelical movement than they were with what was being taught in their own seminaries, and when that difference was pointed out by the conservative resurgence, the people in the pew, far from being unsuspecting, reacted by supporting leaders who were in agreement with what they believed. Since her thesis relates to American Evangelicalism at large, she is operating from the assumption, a correct one, that most Southern Baptists were conservative evangelicals who held the common view of inerrancy at the time.

It would be hard to prove otherwise. There was no fracture in the convention like there has been in other denominations who have had controversy over doctrine. The conservative resurgence has sustained, for over thirty years, complete control of the denomination at the national level, and virtually complete control at the state and associational level. The changes made in the doctrinal statement, related to Biblical Authority, are minimal, and reflect a consistent Baptist belief in a Bible that has, for its matter, "truth without any mixture of error." That belief is reflected in all three existing versions of the BFM, going back to 1925, and the only change in 2000 was one sentence that doesn't change the principle. Southern Baptists as a group haven't really moved on that doctrinal point. The seminaries did, influenced by ivory tower academia and the liberal drift of mainline Protestantism in the US. That was a short-lived aberration. It would have been interesting for an outsider like Worthen to take a look at all of that background and offer up an analysis based purely on observation, without commentary from anyone directly involved. I'll bet she'd come down pretty close to my conclusion. :)
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Re: Latest on SBC Takeover, excerpt from upcoming 2014 book

Postby Haruo » Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:38 pm

What does "demagged" mean?
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Demagogued

Postby Stephen Fox » Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:49 pm

I think that is close to correct spelling. Hopefully Friday I can post Worthen's concluding paragraph on Schaeffer, who Roger Olson says Worthen profiled as a "charlatan".
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Molly on UNC Radio today

Postby Stephen Fox » Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:51 pm

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Re: Latest on SBC Takeover, excerpt from upcoming 2014 book

Postby Sandy » Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:00 am

Haruo wrote:What does "demagged" mean?


A molecule losing some of its chemical properties. It's a stretch, but I get Stephen's usage of it.
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Re: Latest on SBC Takeover, excerpt from upcoming 2014 book

Postby Haruo » Thu Feb 27, 2014 11:49 am

Sandy wrote:
Haruo wrote:What does "demagged" mean?


A molecule losing some of its chemical properties. It's a stretch, but I get Stephen's usage of it.

Yeah, except he actually meant (as he said in his reply) "demagogued".
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Re: Latest on SBC Takeover, excerpt from upcoming 2014 book

Postby Sandy » Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:32 pm

Regardless of the research, Worthen's own perspective and position makes any evaluation she makes of Francis Shaeffer biased. It is easy to pick up on that, but I think Stephen exaggerates her position somewhat. As his reviewer friend Roger Olson says, "She's weak in offering practical advice to Evangelicals." The religious left and intellectual elites hate Shaeffer with a passion because he was an intellectual with well-supported arguments against their philosophical and religious positions, and his prolific writing was a major contribution to the solidifying and unifying of the branch of American Protestantism known as the Conservative Evangelical movement. The unfortunate side of that is that he gets the blame for a lot of things that developed that he didn't really have anything to do with, such as dominionism and reconstructionism, and he gets accused of supporting and fanning the flames of the threads and strains of anti-intellectualism among Evangelicals. But he was pretty up front, and to his credit, those who met him face to face didn't find any of that to be true. To call him a demagogue is to exhibit a complete lack of knowledge of his approach and work, or a level of resentment and bias that disqualifies you from making an evaluation, or just ignorance of the definition of the word. That falls in the same category as accusing W.A. Criswell of involvement in the masterminding of the Kennedy assassination, or of the "serious danger" that Billy Graham's legacy is in.

Instead of posting the usual list of names, why don't you answer a question? How many of Shaeffer's books have you read, and which ones?
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Sandy named on Fox Blog, Worthen on Schaeffer "Bluster"

Postby Stephen Fox » Fri Feb 28, 2014 1:28 pm

http://foxofbama.blogspot.com/2014/02/m ... ancis.html

See blog for best set up of the following quotes. It apparently got under Sandy Lee Saunders skin and he commented on my blog:

Molly on Schaeffer in quotes and analysis:

Schaeffer and Notre Dame's Mark Noll in early 80s had an exchange over Schaeffer's Christian Manifesto Worthen reports:


FS replied with a 12 page screed defending his position.. Barry Hankins said Noll's correspondence Obsessed FS. FS checked the mail daily at LaBri. "The criticism hurt, more than that, FS was outraged. at the evangelical historian's disloyalty in the midst of this battle for America's soul. FS had written Manifesto not as a dispassionate historical treatise, but as a tract in the culture wars, Hankins said."

FS wanted evangelical Americans to become soldiers of history rather than careful students. He was one of a wave of gurus who, like generations of prophets and big personalities before them, offered evangelicals an alternative authority, a rubric of certainty at a time when the consensus on the Bible's status in American culture was shakier than ever. While he inspired some evangelicals to get to the bottom of some of the stories he told by pursuing grad degrees in philosophy and history, on a larger scale FS ministry was a grand and clever exercise in anti-intellectualism. he deployed the trappings of academic investigation....In FS mind there was no dishonor in this, only due respect for divine authority....





Quoting Molly:



Scheffer's minstry revealed what the neo-evangelical campaign to build an intellectual movement around inerrancy and a "Christian World View" had become: an adaptable ideology vague enough to welcome believers of every theological persuasion, a substrate in which political energy could flourish-- and a strategy for using the authority of history to name conservative evangelicals as trustees of Christendom.




A few pages later. Molly says in reference to what Schaeffer begat: "Yet in the public square subtle scholarship was no match for culture war bluster!" So Lee Saunders understands, Schaeffer was the chief guru of cul
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When Lee Saunders and FBC Spartanburg Grow up

Postby Stephen Fox » Fri Feb 28, 2014 5:28 pm

Most timely piece, from Gushee who with Carey Newman in Barry Hankins piece testified in the early days of the Mohler covenant 9(94 or so) at SBTS. "God Was not in this place."

http://abpnews.com/news/item/28350-what ... xD_CNiYaM8
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Re: When Lee Saunders and FBC Spartanburg Grow up

Postby Sandy » Sat Mar 01, 2014 11:45 pm

Stephen Fox wrote:Most timely piece, from Gushee who with Carey Newman in Barry Hankins piece testified in the early days of the Mohler covenant 9(94 or so) at SBTS. "God Was not in this place."

http://abpnews.com/news/item/28350-what ... xD_CNiYaM8


Interesting perspective from Gushee, without bias of course :wink: . I would tend to agree with his assessment of the three different categories into which ex-SBCers fall. I understand the significance of keeping the record for those ex-SBCers who were involved in the denomination prior to the conservative resurgence. Gushee points to the Alliance of Baptists and CBF as the two main gathering points for ex-SBCers. The Alliance never really amounted to much, and is now a small, struggling organization with a dubious future that, from what I read and can observe, is not much more than a pass-through for a few churches and their mission giving. CBF is struggling to meet massively cut budgets as the stream of contributions has dried up, and since most of its partnering congregations are still affiliated with and supporting the SBC, is hard to refer to it as a core group of "ex" SBCers. Ex perhaps, in that they are no longer part of the denominational elite, but not as influential as they think they are in that many of those who go to the same churches aren't influenced by their fellow church members in denominational politics.

I think you need to answer my question, Stephen. Have you ever read any of Francis Shaeffer's books? Instead of pushing some pseudo-intellectual's bias, why not read Schaeffer, and render your own evaluation. If his work isn't too intellectual for you, that is. :wink:
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Francis Schaeffer a waste of my time

Postby Stephen Fox » Tue Mar 04, 2014 5:55 pm

I have better things on the docket. I see what he did for Al Mohler and Tully Tchividjian and I have no use for him.

Life is short. I am 60; there are better things to read like the essays of James Wood in the New Yorker--see Why Dec 9, 2013--and the short stories of Ron Rash. I may read some of N. T. Wright's new book on Paul.

Molly Worthen does not hate Francis Schaeffer. Only the most thin skinned chip on the shoulder fundy would read Molly in context and come to that conclusion. She does talk about the exchange he had early on with Mark Noll, and find him on the whole to be full of "bluster". At one point she refers to him as a "demagogue". Roger Olson interprets it all as Molly dismissing FS as a "charlatan".

Consensus is in from Mark Noll, to MOlly and now to Olson. He doesn't stack up and I'm sad Sandy is so resentful.

Waiting on the Rancall Balmer review in the Century. Just tody I brought Molly's book to the attention of the former associate editor of the Alabama Baptist, Andrew Westmoreland, President of Samford University, good friend of Fox News Mike Huckabee; and to the prayer line of Chic Fil A Cares where I have every reason to believe my former classmate in Robert Crapps Intro to religion at Furman fall of 71, Dan Cathy himself, will be reading soon!
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