Molly Worthen on SBC Takeover, Francis Schaeffer, etc

[Sandy]

Not in a way that is consistent with her thesis. Stephen is still charging at windmills in the SBC's conservative resurgence, still thinking that at some point, those within the denomination who think like he does will somehow come forward and reverse the leadership changes that have been solidified and affirmed for three decades, now. Worthen provides a perspective connected to a broader picture that he's fallen upon as a "fresh, new" look that will captivate and awaken the sleeping opposition to the current SBC leaders and restore the denomination to the long, slow slide into theologically liberal modernism where it was headed prior to 1979. But she doesn't share his thesis, uses her resources to point out that what occurred in the SBC was simply a tapping in to a majority conservative view that already existed in large numbers, and that the moderates did themselves in with their elitism and patronistic attitudes toward leadership prior to 1979. That doesn't fit Stephen's agenda.

[William Thornton]

Do any of you have the BOOK rather than just the excerpts?

[Stephen Fox]

Should have the book, call them first. Email me. I'm trying to get you a Revival Gig in an SBC church in NE Bama with ties to Jackson County Ga. What do you charge for four day Revival. Buy the book and then take my half out of the residual when you get here and be grateful for me bringing it to your attention.

I got an email response from Dr. Worthen today. In effect she said she appreciates the banter here at bl.com but as a matter of professional integrity would appreciate it if we all read the book as she sets up the SBC chapter in wider intellectual depth. And as I think most of you know, this is about something much bigger than the SBC split, though we know about the excerpt.

Edit: Molly's phrase: "broader intellectual context that I try to suggest sheds some light on SBC events"

Serious about the Revival gig. I promise to show two nights and behave. Some good people in the church. Average VBS attendance in 200 and one member is 5th cousin to Jon Appleton, pastor emeritus of FBC Athens Ga though this church is SBC.

http://religionandpolitics.org/2013/12/ ... y-worthen/

I think I have book coming to local juco, but am interested in having my own copy which will be the one Thornton brings me when he comes over for Spring Revival!

[Sandy]

I'd like to get a copy of the book as well. I ordered it from Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/Molly-Worthen/e/B001HMPGDG

[Stephen Fox]

trying to position Sandy and Thornton on SBC Faultline re Pressler and Criswell and Adrian Rogers; you two fellow are for the record a little to the left of those three on Evolution, aren't you? http://ethicsdaily.com/survey-strong-af ... -cms-21411

And Sandy, I did send Dr. Worthen a follow-up email with a link to your exceptions to my take above, after your blog read. It may not be enough for her to go on; or she may wait till the three of us and more read the book before she respondes, but I am interested to see if she takes a nibble on the bait. I may ride over to Rome this weekend for a long day at Barnes and Noble, cause the Lord may not tarry till Thornton gets over here for a Revival

[William Thornton]

So, no one has the book, not even Stephen?

[Stephen Fox]

Holding my copy till the local Juco gets it, or you come over here for the simultaneous Revival and bring my copy with you!

In meantime, I doubt Ms Worthen would kowtow with this Takeover legacy, though it deserves its own thread which I'm about to start

http://abpnews.com/culture/media-and-ar ... sx57U2A2M8

[Stephen Fox]

Her first paragraph on fundamentalism at odds with the enlightenment is spot on and major hint of the tone of her Apostles of Reason. Was hoping to make major headway in the book today but logistics did not cooperate

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/08/books ... .html?_r=0

[Stephen Fox]

[Sandy]

[Stephen Fox]

Paul Pressler, Jesse Helms, Albert Lee Smith and Wife Eunie and Richard Land.

With you, Sandy Lee Saunders will wait for further review on the names.

I did make a call to FBC Spartanburg yesterday and and talked to Marianna in Trey Gowdy's office. Made a call to Poage Library, the most direct connection to Chet Edwards affiliation with Baylor this morn; thought you'd want an update.

Let's let the reference to Marilynne Robinson's talk at Duke as analogy to where Worthen is going combust a little and we'll see how dead on the money I was or if I missed it a little.

Trying to get www.ginnybrant.com in the Worthen Conversation. She is hardwired to BGEA and FBC Sburg.

Charles Marsh's A Strange Glory, bio of Bonhoeffer comes out in April.

Let's do Stay in Touch.

[Stephen Fox]

Not as Evil as pressler and helms, but he sure is slick, disingenuous and in that Fox News Cauldron with Roger Ailes Bonhoeffer would've Abhorred:

http://www.religiondispatches.org/dispa ... _bogeyman/

[Sandy]

It's a snowy morning, so I picked up the book for a while......

Stephen, in his poking and prodding around, found some new words on an old subject from a different source. Worthen is not particularly concerned about the situation within the Southern Baptist Convention, per se, but about the example it provides as a part of evangelical Christianity as an influence. Her take on it, based on research, is that the structure of the organization, with it's lack of direct connection from churches to institutions, and from institutions to churches, allowed a separation to develop because the pastors and independent, autonomous local churches were not directly influenced by the more liberal direction that the leadership an educational institutions were going. The system protected those within the leadership circle from the reality of a growing disconnectedness from the churches, allowing them to believe they were "leading" the denomination in a more "progressive" direction until Patterson and Pressler figured out how to break down the elitist inner circle and opened up what had been a very exclusive and closed club. It couldn't have been sustained unless a significant majority of the churches would support it. So Worthen agrees that the conservative resurgence wasn't a "takeover" by outsiders, but an adjustment from within which returned the denominational apparatus to those who held the majority view within the churches themselves.

End of discussion for me.

[William Thornton]

Excellent analysis, one that has always been vehemently denied by mod/libs.

[Stephen Fox]

Sandy has read four or more chapters of the book? I do applaud him for jumping into several chapters.

William hasn't read any of the book, or maybe the online chapter but likes Sandy's analysis.

I've read the online chapter, given the last chapter a cursory read at a Barnes and Noble and provided the link to the Worthen Review of giberson and Stephens where Worthen makes the assertion SBC Fundies and other reactionary conservatives to the 60's at core have a war on the Enlightenment.

One thing Worthen is not saying is the takeover was a good thing. Her analysis of why or how it happened may have more in common with half the difference between Nancy Ammerman and Paige Patterson's review of Ammerman than it does with Buddy Shurden, Bruce Gourley and lesser lights like myself and Gene Scarborough.

So if Thornton agrees with Sanders, it seems safe to say they are satisfied with mediocre higher education for Baptist pulpits as Worthen as I understand her is saying that is what the takeover amounted to. Letting the lowest common denominator in the pews decide the nature of Scripture after folks like Adrian Rogers and Paul Pressler with the encouragement of enthusiastic Birchers in the margins convinced them of as much. As the discussion of Worthen's book continues, I doubt the analysis will remain as sanguine as Sandy concludes and Thornton applauds after a four or five chapter read.

[Sandy]

[William Thornton]

Stephen, when my liberry gets the book I will read it.

I'm sticking with Adrian on this: If Southern Baptists say that pigs fly then our profs should teach that.

Those who pay the bills have the final word. Those who would like to teach otherwise don't have any inherent right to a paycheck from us and are welcome to obtain one elsewhere,

[Ed Pettibone]

[Stephen Fox]

I was in the Winder Lyberry about five years ago. Nice folks but I doubt they ever shelve Apostles of Reason. Best for you Thornton to make an early drive to Barnes and Noble in Buford and do an in house read. Stay there four hours. You should be able to get deep into it; Or Prod the Lyberry in Clarke County to get the book or UGA. No excuses. I almost pulled the trigger yesterday to go over to Rome and get deep into their one copy there at B n Noble if Nelson Price hasn't already grabbed it up.

Here is a challenge to Thornton and Sandy. Find a copy of the Smyth and Helwys What Really Matters, Furman lecture anthology and read Jeff Rogers on Baptists and Higher Education. Shoots down Sandy's mediocre and foggy notions about Baptists and Higher Ed. Adds Credence to what Cecil Sherman told me in 93 Quoting Bill Friday, longtime Chancellor of the UNiversity system in North Carolina!

[Stephen Fox]

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rogereolso ... t-3-final/

If Schaeffer is a Charlatan and Mohler one of his Time Magazine influential devotees, then what does that say about the fundamentalist takeover of the Southern Baptist Convention.

Bill Leonard and Balmer and Fisher Humphreys need to engage this conversation, the sooner the better!

[William Thornton]

I'm oriented towards the Athens liberry, Stephen, the Winder one being closer but smaller and distinctly more provincial. Besides, the Athens liberry has a Heritage Room rich with genealogical material in which many of my ancestors lurk.

[Stephen Fox]

[Stephen Fox]

Here is Molly Worthen on the gathering for Billy Graham's 95th Birthday

http://www.christiancentury.org/blogs/a ... m#comments

Randall Balmer's review of Molly's Apostles of Reason should be in Christian Century soon!

[Stephen Fox]

http://foxofbama.blogspot.com/2014/02/f ... emale.html

[Sandy]

Before Stephen turns this back into another irrelevant tirade on Billy Graham, I'll throw in this brief evaluation of the book. Still not completely finished, but had some hospital time to get through most of it last week.

I don't believe Stephen has stumbled upon an ally to support his theories related to the conservative resurgence in the SBC. Apparently, in her analysis, and in her research, Worthen located some moderate Baptists from the pre-1979 era who were willing to admit that they controlled the convention through a precarious, but effective system that made sure a president was elected who would then go back to the tight little oligarchy that ran the convention to get his nominees. She credits the success of the conservatives in getting the convention apparatus to shift to the fact that most of the churches, members, and pastors and church leaders, were already well to the theological right of the convention leadership and that allowed the conservatives to sustain long term control of the convention. The opposition was widely resented for its paternalistic style of leadership, and couldn't come close to matching the kinds of numbers that the conservatives could get to any convention in any location. I'd say the most substantial piece of supporting evidence I picked up from Ms. Worthen is that the conservative resurgence in the SBC was exactly that, in that it only took organization and figuring out how to work within the system for the conservatives to win, because Worthen contends that the SBC's churches had already been pulled into the broader community of conservative evangelicalism. That's a key point she makes in proving her thesis.

Significantly, and surprisingly, I picked up on the fact that Worthen has a rather strong respect for the educational system and processes of conservative Evangelical Christianity, rather than a disdain for its quality. Clearly, she disagrees with much of the specific content, but backs away from accusations of "indoctrination," evaluating its educational institutions as successful in generating the overall effectiveness and influence of Evangelical Christianity. That's what most Southern Baptists have asked of their schools--to reflect the convictions and beliefs of the churches that established, supported and nurtured them. What we've been experiencing over the past 30 years in Southern Baptist higher education is that some schools have decided to reflect the convictions and beliefs of their supporting churches, while others have sought to loosen, or cut, their ties and move in a different direction. She doesn't support Stephen's elitist view of Baptist higher education.

To her credit, Worthen doesn't pigeonhole conservative Christianity. IMHO, that may be the influence of the encounters she had during her research, or it may have been her own conclusion before writing this book. I also don't get the feeling that she'd be much interested in, or influenced by one of Stephen's imaginary encounters with someone who would set her straight on the places where he thinks she missed the boat.