Fascinating Patterson Comment

Discuss current news and trends taking place in the Southern Baptist Convention.

Moderator: William Thornton

Fascinating Patterson Comment

Postby Dave Roberts » Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:23 am

Last night ABP reported on chapel remarks from Dr. Paige Patterson, President of SWBTS.

http://www.abpnews.com/faith/theology/item/8941-patterson-don-t-take-church-matters-to-press#.UmAzm1Asl8E

It's interesting since he was the guy who spent the 1970's and 80's talking to every reporter he could find about fellow Christians with whom he disagreed in the SBC. Funny how he doesn't want the talk now.
"God will never be less than He is and does not need to be more" (John Koessler)

My blog: http://emporiadave.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Dave Roberts
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5972
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 2:01 pm
Location: Southside, VA

Re: Fascinating Patterson Comment

Postby William Thornton » Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:11 pm

Patterson said this: "“I’m not going to talk to the press about things that are matters internal to the church of the Living God,” Patterson said. “It is none of their business. And they can’t possibly get it right, and they don’t get it right, so why do you take it to the world of unbelief? Whether that be the court, whether that be the press? ‘Well there’s just no other way to handle it.’ Yes there is. Commit it to the Lord God Almighty.”"

I think the focus was a local church rather than broader denominational conflict. And I believe he was not including criminal matters such as child abuse or embezzlement from the church. Nonetheless, where a church stifles internal feedback and problem resolution, is it always wrong to take it public through traditional or other media? I would not be so categorical.
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 10485
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: Fascinating Patterson Comment

Postby Dave Roberts » Fri Oct 18, 2013 1:46 pm

I certainly would not advocate airing dirty church laundry in the press or social media. I'm just noting how much of a turn this is for Patterson who in his "heresy hunt" days could not wait to get a reporter's ear. If you doubt that, check Glenn Hinson's autobiography, "A Miracle of Grace." Patterson often went public before he went to individuals or to institutional boards of trustees.
"God will never be less than He is and does not need to be more" (John Koessler)

My blog: http://emporiadave.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Dave Roberts
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5972
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 2:01 pm
Location: Southside, VA

Re: Fascinating Patterson Comment

Postby Jerry_B » Fri Oct 18, 2013 3:45 pm

What a joke this guy is, how could anyone take hime or is flawed handling of scripture and practical application seriously? Patterson uses the media when it serves his purposes, now that they are asking questions he doesn't want to answer or would require him to throw one of his buddies under the bus, he wants them to go away and everyone to keep their mouth shut. What a pompous blowhard.

How about instead of instructing people how to be better at keeping secrets, he spends some time on the value of honesty, transparency, and what phrases like "above reproach" mean in a real world, practical sense.
Jerry_B
 
Posts: 425
Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 10:15 pm
Location: Texas

Re: Fascinating Patterson Comment

Postby Sandy » Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:50 am

Jerry_B wrote:What a joke this guy is, how could anyone take hime or is flawed handling of scripture and practical application seriously? Patterson uses the media when it serves his purposes, now that they are asking questions he doesn't want to answer or would require him to throw one of his buddies under the bus, he wants them to go away and everyone to keep their mouth shut. What a pompous blowhard.

How about instead of instructing people how to be better at keeping secrets, he spends some time on the value of honesty, transparency, and what phrases like "above reproach" mean in a real world, practical sense.


There are a lot of things about Paige Patterson that I don't particularly like. I don't disagree with his conclusion that the SBC was run by a bunch of elitist good ole boys whose drift toward liberal theology was robbing the SBC of its evangelistic fervor and its missions commitment, but I do disagree with his use of the cause to advance his career in theological education beyond the financially strapped and less "prestigious" Criswell College, and his continued hanging on to positions of power within the denominational structure. His continued presence and influence, along with that of Paul Pressler, and many of their original inner circle, has stifled the participation of younger leadership which might make the kind of structural and organizational changes that would help the SBC toward more efficient and effective progress.

But I have to smile when I see this kind of criticism from the remnant of moderate Baptist opposition to the conservative resurgence. And criticism of his "flawed" handling of scripture is just laughable. The name calling, i.e. "pompous blowhard," well, that just nullifies your credibility on this topic.

As far as this specific comment goes, I would agree with William's interpretation of Patterson's remarks pertaining specifically to the inner workings of a church, which is not the same thing as a denomination. Even in congregational churches, accountability and transparency of leadership, which are automatic build-ins if you follow the scriptural instructions for their operation, can require an extra effort. The secular media doesn't have an understanding of that, but I think congregations need to be careful about keeping accountability open and above board. But I'm not sure that denominational issues need to be aired in the secular media either. Patterson did indeed use the denominational media, but I don't see where his comments are inconsistent with his use of denominational media, or independent Christian media.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 6272
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:10 pm
Location: Rural Western Pennsylvania

Re: Fascinating Patterson Comment

Postby Dave Roberts » Sat Oct 19, 2013 10:20 am

Sandy, I watched Patterson in action at the 1987 SBC in St. Louis when the Peace Committee Report was given. He was buttonholing every reporter that could be found to give his spin to the report and to its conclusions. He just seems a little disingenuous when saying "don't talk to the media." He made a career out of it.
"God will never be less than He is and does not need to be more" (John Koessler)

My blog: http://emporiadave.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Dave Roberts
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5972
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 2:01 pm
Location: Southside, VA

Re: Fascinating Patterson Comment

Postby Sandy » Sat Oct 19, 2013 12:02 pm

1987? 26 years ago? No moderate Baptists have changed their minds since then, huh?
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 6272
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:10 pm
Location: Rural Western Pennsylvania

Re: Fascinating Patterson Comment

Postby Haruo » Sat Oct 19, 2013 12:06 pm

Bill Moyer is not "the world of unbelief".
Haruo (呂須•春男) = ᎭᎷᎣ = Leland Bryant Ross
Repeal the language taxLearn and use Esperanto
Fremont Baptist ChurchMy hymnblog
User avatar
Haruo
Site Admin
 
Posts: 10054
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 8:21 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Fascinating Patterson Comment

Postby Ed Pettibone » Sat Oct 19, 2013 12:16 pm

Ed:Sandy I don't see how any one who has heard Patterson more than once can dispute Jerry-B's description of him as a pompous blowhard.

Define Blowhard; at Dictionary.com
Blowhard definition, an exceptionally boastful and talkative person

pomp·ous
ˈpämpəs/
adjective
adjective: pompous

1.
affectedly and irritatingly grand, solemn, or self-important.
"a pompous ass who pretends he knows everything"
synonyms: self-important, imperious, overbearing, domineering, magisterial, pontifical, sententious, grandiose, affected, pretentious, puffed up, arrogant, vain, haughty, proud, conceited, egotistic, supercilious, condescending, patronizing;

But perhaps, I have had the misfortune of only hearing him at his worst.
User avatar
Ed Pettibone
 
Posts: 11212
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:46 pm
Location: .Burnt Hills, New York, Capital Area

Re: Fascinating Patterson Comment

Postby William Thornton » Sat Oct 19, 2013 2:01 pm

Neither side had a monopoly on blowhards.
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 10485
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: Fascinating Patterson Comment

Postby Jerry_B » Sat Oct 19, 2013 9:53 pm

No doubt about that. Truth is calling someone a pompous blowhard is likely the first step to being a pompous blowhard.

That being said, I can't get out of my mind the current fights ensuing about church leaders and their unwillingness to be forthcoming when abuse allegations are being made against them or staff in their organizations. Patterson's comments seem to be justifying this secretive behavior and that just sends me over the edge.

Transparent behavior should be the norm.
Jerry_B
 
Posts: 425
Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 10:15 pm
Location: Texas

Re: Fascinating Patterson Comment

Postby Ed Pettibone » Sun Oct 20, 2013 9:31 am

William Thornton wrote:Neither side had a monopoly on blowhards.


Ed: Who is talking about sides or monopolies? So far this thread has been about Paige Patterson.
User avatar
Ed Pettibone
 
Posts: 11212
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:46 pm
Location: .Burnt Hills, New York, Capital Area

Re: Fascinating Patterson Comment

Postby Sandy » Sun Oct 20, 2013 6:11 pm

Yeah, it's about Paige Patterson, and the fact that things he does still draws criticism from moderate Baptists is a pretty good reason why they can't seem to get much traction and move beyond being the anti-SBC.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 6272
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:10 pm
Location: Rural Western Pennsylvania

Re: Fascinating Patterson Comment

Postby Dave Roberts » Sun Oct 20, 2013 6:30 pm

Sandy wrote:Yeah, it's about Paige Patterson, and the fact that things he does still draws criticism from moderate Baptists is a pretty good reason why they can't seem to get much traction and move beyond being the anti-SBC.


I'm aware of quite a few SBC loyalists who have little use for Patterson. Several feel he has held on long past the time he could (and in their opinions should) have retired. He is holding power in the same way of those he used to criticize.
"God will never be less than He is and does not need to be more" (John Koessler)

My blog: http://emporiadave.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Dave Roberts
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5972
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 2:01 pm
Location: Southside, VA

Re: Fascinating Patterson Comment

Postby Ed Pettibone » Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:37 am

Sandy wrote:Yeah, it's about Paige Patterson, and the fact that things he does still draws criticism from moderate Baptists is a pretty good reason why they can't seem to get much traction and move beyond being the anti-SBC.


Ed: Sandy, as I have said many times in discussions with you on this site I am not anti Southern Baptist, but I do not respect many of the leadership they have installed since 1980. I was SBC for 43 years and did not leave until 1998, when we moved to Cincinnati and found a vital ABC-USA congregation close to our home, but we have both friends and family who still live in the south and are members of SBC Churches.

Please keep in mind you are the one who said
There are a lot of things about Paige Patterson that I don't particularly like. I don't disagree with his conclusion that the SBC was run by a bunch of elitist good ole boys whose drift toward liberal theology was robbing the SBC of its evangelistic fervor and its missions commitment, but I do disagree with his use of the cause to advance his career in theological education beyond the financially strapped and less "prestigious" Criswell College, and his continued hanging on to positions of power within the denominational structure. His continued presence and influence, along with that of Paul Pressler, and many of their original inner circle, has stifled the participation of younger leadership which might make the kind of structural and organizational changes that would help the SBC toward more efficient and effective progress.


Looking at the Baptism stats under the new leadership, and those of their predecessors, I am a bit surprised to see you writing about some supposed loss of evangelistic fervor prior to the take over. :roll: But this thread is about Paige Patterson , I didn't appreciate him when I was still in the SBC, and I haven't seen any improvement. :(
User avatar
Ed Pettibone
 
Posts: 11212
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:46 pm
Location: .Burnt Hills, New York, Capital Area

Re: Fascinating Patterson Comment

Postby Sandy » Mon Oct 21, 2013 6:32 am

Ed Pettibone wrote:
Sandy wrote:Yeah, it's about Paige Patterson, and the fact that things he does still draws criticism from moderate Baptists is a pretty good reason why they can't seem to get much traction and move beyond being the anti-SBC.


Ed: Sandy, as I have said many times in discussions with you on this site I am not anti Southern Baptist, but I do not respect many of the leadership they have installed since 1980. I was SBC for 43 years and did not leave until 1998, when we moved to Cincinnati and found a vital ABC-USA congregation close to our home, but we have both friends and family who still live in the south and are members of SBC Churches.

Please keep in mind you are the one who said
There are a lot of things about Paige Patterson that I don't particularly like. I don't disagree with his conclusion that the SBC was run by a bunch of elitist good ole boys whose drift toward liberal theology was robbing the SBC of its evangelistic fervor and its missions commitment, but I do disagree with his use of the cause to advance his career in theological education beyond the financially strapped and less "prestigious" Criswell College, and his continued hanging on to positions of power within the denominational structure. His continued presence and influence, along with that of Paul Pressler, and many of their original inner circle, has stifled the participation of younger leadership which might make the kind of structural and organizational changes that would help the SBC toward more efficient and effective progress.


Looking at the Baptism stats under the new leadership, and those of their predecessors, I am a bit surprised to see you writing about some supposed loss of evangelistic fervor prior to the take over. :roll: But this thread is about Paige Patterson , I didn't appreciate him when I was still in the SBC, and I haven't seen any improvement. :(


I think, if you will look at the beginning of the thread, that I am not the one who started this conversation. And thank you for making my point for me.

Like any denominational leader, there are things about Paige Patterson that people find disagreeable, or don't like. But it seems that there are those among the small remnant of moderate Baptists who sort of distanced themselves from the SBC but not completely, who seem compelled to point out decades-old statements he once made, and some thing he's done that seems inconsistent with that decades later.

I've been hearing moderate Baptist leaders in CBF and the Alliance of Baptists for years talk about focusing on a new way to be Baptist and building their organizations on something other than being the anti-SBC, but the criticism of Patterson is more or less constant, and something he did in 1989 or 1992 still gets the bulk of their attention and focus.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 6272
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:10 pm
Location: Rural Western Pennsylvania

Re: Fascinating Patterson Comment

Postby Ed Pettibone » Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:08 pm

Sandy wrote
I think, if you will look at the beginning of the thread, that I am not the one who started this conversation. And thank you for making my point for me.

Like any denominational leader, there are things about Paige Patterson that people find disagreeable, or don't like. But it seems that there are those among the small remnant of moderate Baptists who sort of distanced themselves from the SBC but not completely, who seem compelled to point out decades-old statements he once made, and some thing he's done that seems inconsistent with that decades later.

I've been hearing moderate Baptist leaders in CBF and the Alliance of Baptists for years talk about focusing on a new way to be Baptist and building their organizations on something other than being the anti-SBC, but the criticism of Patterson is more or less constant, and something he did in 1989 or 1992 still gets the bulk of their attention and focus.


Ed: Sandy, I had no need to look at the beginning of the thread to see that it was not you who started it, D.R. posted a link to an ABP story, along with a comment indicating that Patterson's tune on speaking to the press seems to have changed from when he used the press to to enhance his role in what he calls The SBC Resurgence. And then William seems to have tried to justify Paige's new standard by offering an explanation that this may have been a local church matter, while during the takeover he was speaking to denominational matters. I think that is a weak argument, both have to do with resolution of problems between Christian brothers and Sisters.

And when you say "...the criticism of Patterson is more or less constant, and something he did in 1989 or 1992 still gets the bulk of their attention and focus.' I have to say yes he is rather constant in sticking his foot in his mouth, and some of us respond.

And when you claim that the bulk of the criticism is focused on some thing he did in 89 or 92, you skip over your own complaints, such as his self serving moves from Criswell to Southeastern and then to South western in 2002, and hen there was the firing of Sheri Klouda in 2007, just to touch on a few that received wide spread media attention. Sure some of the criticism is kind of petty like talk about the dozens of Christmas tree in the presidential mansion at Southwestern. And Dr. Dr. Dorthy's, courses for women preparing them as wives of pastors or his collection of trophy animals from Africa. By the way the last time I heard him in person was 2 years ago when he preached at an SBC church about 4 miles down the road from our church, when he was in the area to speak at the NE extension of William's Alma Mater, Mid America Seminary. I will always remember his hyperbolic description of a giraffe giving birth. I have no idea how it fit in the sermon but it was entertaining.
User avatar
Ed Pettibone
 
Posts: 11212
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:46 pm
Location: .Burnt Hills, New York, Capital Area

Re: Fascinating Patterson Comment

Postby Dave Roberts » Mon Oct 21, 2013 5:09 pm

Sandy, I don't have a Patterson fetish and usually refrain from posting anything about him. I thought this might be a topic worth exploring for church/minister relations, which I assumed Patterson meant. It was just an aside observation that he had certainly changed, but most of us do when we are on the inside of power as opposed to when we are on the outside of power. You and William started defending and trying to explain what Patterson meant before we ever got back to the questions of behavior in relation both to church and denominational issues. The issue of skewering each other in the press and on social media is certainly not limited to the SBC, whether it is in the local church or the denomination as a whole. When the church will not hear a brother or sister, when is that person justified in taking a concern into a wider audience?
"God will never be less than He is and does not need to be more" (John Koessler)

My blog: http://emporiadave.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Dave Roberts
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5972
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 2:01 pm
Location: Southside, VA

Re: Fascinating Patterson Comment

Postby Dave Roberts » Mon Oct 21, 2013 5:51 pm

Today, there is a follow-up response to Patterson's statements that will certainly push this debate.

http://www.abpnews.com/culture/social-issues/item/8949-advocate-says-sbc-leader-gives-bad-advice
"God will never be less than He is and does not need to be more" (John Koessler)

My blog: http://emporiadave.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Dave Roberts
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5972
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 2:01 pm
Location: Southside, VA

Re: Fascinating Patterson Comment

Postby William Thornton » Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:41 pm

What you guys need to find here is where PP advises NOT calling the cops when a pastor or staff or member is aware of possible criminal activity. The "advocate" featured is concerned with clergy sex abuse, a subject where the SBC at every denominational level and entity teach that allegations of such should be reported.

The issue worth discussing here is exactly when, if ever, should an internal non criminal church matter be taken to media or to civil court.
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 10485
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: Fascinating Patterson Comment

Postby Ed Pettibone » Mon Oct 21, 2013 10:47 pm

William Thornton wrote:What you guys need to find here is where PP advises NOT calling the cops when a pastor or staff or member is aware of possible criminal activity. The "advocate" featured is concerned with clergy sex abuse, a subject where there the SBC at every denominational level and entity teach that allegations of such should be reported.

The issue worth discussing here is exactly when, if ever, should an internal non criminal church matter be taken to media or to civil court.


Ed: William, I think I might agree, if I knew what you are saying. First when you say "you guys" who are you talking to? I happen to have been the next to last before you to post and I said nothing about Patterson advising any one not to report a crime. And when you write "The 'advocate' featured is concerned with clergy sex abuse, a subject where there the SBC at every denominational level and entity teach that allegations of such should be reported." (The color is my addition) The "where there" makes no sense to me. And I have to wonder how you arrive at your definition of "the issue worth discussing".

As I see it when churches and denominations began incorporating, for their own protection, they became ensnared in a legal system where the proscribed recourse to settle disputes is through the courts, which does seem to be opposed to the scriptural admonition.
User avatar
Ed Pettibone
 
Posts: 11212
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:46 pm
Location: .Burnt Hills, New York, Capital Area

Re: Fascinating Patterson Comment

Postby William Thornton » Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:12 am

Most of the criticism elsewhere is similar to the article linked by Dave which focuses on criminal behavior.

Dave asks, "When the church will not hear a brother or sister, when is that person justified in taking a concern into a wider audience?" a perfectly legitimate question but one not precisely raised by PP's chapel comments.

I had a extra word in my previous post...fixed that.
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 10485
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: Fascinating Patterson Comment

Postby Sandy » Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:54 am

William Thornton wrote:Dave asks, "When the church will not hear a brother or sister, when is that person justified in taking a concern into a wider audience?" a perfectly legitimate question but one not precisely raised by PP's chapel comments.


But the issue raised in the ABP piece, and by the critics of his chapel comments is taken out of that context.

I'm not surprised that ABP went out and found someone who would take it where they wanted it to go, and continue to criticize Patterson. They just don't seem to be able to avoid continuing to be the anti-SBC.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 6272
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:10 pm
Location: Rural Western Pennsylvania

Re: Fascinating Patterson Comment

Postby Dave Roberts » Tue Oct 22, 2013 7:22 am

The question also needs to be focused to the opposite side. Frequently, I am aware of churches who have adopted a Pastor-Church Covenant when they called to pastor only to violate the terms of that agreement when they want to get rid of that pastor. Does the pastor simply limp into the sunset as a wounded warrior and allow the church bosses to continue to run unopposed through the membership without ever making a public statement when the church takes the pulpit away. Often these covenants have legal standing in a number of states as the contract under which the minister is to serve and spelling out the terms under which that minister may be relieved of duty. When this is done in direct violation of the church's sacred word in a covenant signed in worship before God, is the minister ever justified in bringing the church to accountability by making public what has been done?
"God will never be less than He is and does not need to be more" (John Koessler)

My blog: http://emporiadave.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Dave Roberts
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5972
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 2:01 pm
Location: Southside, VA

Re: Fascinating Patterson Comment

Postby William Thornton » Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:27 am

To be fair, the CBF doesn't bother much with anti-SBC stuff these days (the latest issue of their slick mag features church planting, for example). ABP has for years had a focus on clergy sex abuse but this isn't their strongest piece on the subject. It's a bit tendentious.
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 10485
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Next

Return to SBC News and Trends

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest