SBC Military Chaplains

Discuss current news and trends taking place in the Southern Baptist Convention.

Moderator: William Thornton

SBC Military Chaplains

Postby Dave Roberts » Tue Sep 17, 2013 5:36 pm

This article certainly raises some difficult questions. What do you think?

http://www.abpnews.com/opinion/commentaries/item/8848-sbc-chaplains-cannot-serve-god-and-country#.UjdWtsYsl8E
"God will never be less than He is and does not need to be more" (John Koessler)

My blog: http://emporiadave.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Dave Roberts
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5891
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 2:01 pm
Location: Southside, VA

Re: SBC Military Chaplains

Postby Blake » Wed Sep 18, 2013 12:06 am

The SBC clearly has bigger problems when their ministers are more concerned about being cornered on homosexuality than actively supporting the military-industrial complex of a secular superpower. :brick:
"But for our parts, to take a carnal weapon in our hands, or use the least violence, either to support or pull down the worst, or to set up or maintain the best of men, we look not upon it to be our duty in the least..."
- Henry Adis
Blake
 
Posts: 339
Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:49 pm
Location: Rochester, MN

Re: SBC Military Chaplains

Postby William Thornton » Wed Sep 18, 2013 7:57 am

The article linked is by a Presbyterian explaining why Southern Baptist chaplains "cannot serve God and country." I'm unimpressed. Couldn't ABP at least find a Baptist to write on this?

I've talked to a few retired SBC military chaplains who routinely handled some similar situations. They were accustomed to finding another chaplain who could do the service or duty if they received a request they could not fulfill.

Any SBC chaplains who wish to perform same-sex ceremonies or assist in leading a same-gender event can certainly find an endorsement from the homosexual friendly CBF.
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 10381
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: SBC Military Chaplains

Postby Sandy » Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:15 am

Well, William, you beat me to the punch. The article is written from a very biased perspective, and is yet another attempt by ABP to make the SBC look like it is out of step with the culture for its Christian, Biblical stand on homosexuality. They make it sound like Southern Baptist chaplains are the ONLY ones who operate under such rules, and that the practices which Southern Baptists won't participate in are widespread, every day occurrences in the military. Neither of those things is true.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 6131
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:10 pm
Location: Rural Western Pennsylvania

Re: SBC Military Chaplains

Postby Ed Pettibone » Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:39 am

Dave Roberts wrote:This article certainly raises some difficult questions. What do you think?

http://www.abpnews.com/opinion/commentaries/item/8848-sbc-chaplains-cannot-serve-god-and-country#.UjdWtsYsl8E


Ed: I think Carpenter offers a list of unsupported speculations. See the comments of the active duty chaplain (Charles Fields) with 24 years of experience. And note he self identifies as an independent Baptist chaplain, I wonder who endorses them? It is the 1stof 18 comments.

I wish ABP would stick to reporting news of Baptist, rather than publishing speculative opinionated editorial criticism about baptist from a self appointed Presbyterian watchdog, who shares their bias.
Last edited by Ed Pettibone on Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Ed Pettibone
 
Posts: 11136
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:46 pm
Location: .Burnt Hills, New York, Capital Area

Re: SBC Military Chaplains

Postby KeithE » Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:10 am

I note that both the NAMB rules and the Covenant and Code of Ethics for Chaplains of the Armed Forces (CCECAF) rules as given in the article seem very myopic (i.e. focussed on a single issue) at least as the article reports it. With SBC’s NAMB it is homosexuality and with the CCECAF it is religious tolerance. Shows a lack of comprehensiveness and over-concern with a religious fad of the moment.

I doubt that the concerns of these rule makers are reflective of the range of concerns of the troops they serve. What about keeping relationships on the front up while on “adventures”, or fear of landmines, or political concerns of the rightness of our "adventures” (like Blake points out), or struggles on recovery from illness/injury or grief for fallen friends. Certainly some guidelines are appropriate in these arenas. Perhaps there are manuals on these other matters, but the rules makers are playing mostly to politics back home instead of providing useful guidance to the chaplains.
Informed by Data.
Driven by the SPIRIT and JESUS’s Example.
Promoting the Kingdom of GOD on Earth.
User avatar
KeithE
Site Admin
 
Posts: 6093
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:02 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: SBC Military Chaplains

Postby William Thornton » Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:23 am

KeithE wrote:I note that both the NAMB rules and the Covenant and Code of Ethics for Chaplains of the Armed Forces (CCECAF) rules as given in the article seem very myopic (i.e. focussed on a single issue) at least as the article reports it. With SBC’s NAMB it is homosexuality and with the CCECAF it is religious tolerance. Shows a lack of comprehensiveness and over-concern with a religious fad of the moment.

I doubt that the concerns of these rule makers are reflective of the range of concerns of the troops they serve. What about keeping relationships on the front up while on “adventures”, or fear of landmines, or political concerns of the rightness of our "adventures” (like Blake points out), or struggles on recovery from illness/injury or grief for fallen friends. Certainly some guidelines are appropriate in these arenas. Perhaps there are manuals on these other matters, but the rules makers are playing mostly to politics back home instead of providing useful guidance to the chaplains.


I have never known an SBC chaplain who did not minister to whomever is in need. NAMB's policy is directed at performance of specific rituals or that ministry which accepts same sex marriages and relationships.

I'd say that there is a problematic segment of the military chaplaincy. Hopefully, this can be appropriately managed.
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 10381
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: SBC Military Chaplains

Postby Dave Roberts » Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:39 am

I have pastored in 3 communities near military bases and have known several chaplains closely. I agree that both NAMB and the code seem overkill. CBF is not endorsing gay marriage, but it's not writing policies that have no way to be enforced. Will NAMB send folks to a firebase in Helmand Province to verify that no SBC chaplains counseled a same-sex partner there? I think not.
"God will never be less than He is and does not need to be more" (John Koessler)

My blog: http://emporiadave.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Dave Roberts
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5891
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 2:01 pm
Location: Southside, VA

Re: SBC Military Chaplains

Postby Ed Pettibone » Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:25 am

Ed: William, you make a good point in saying "I have never known an SBC chaplain who did not minister to whomever is in need." And I would hope you are correct when you say "NAMB's policy is directed at performance of specific rituals", however I have no idea what you mean by "or that ministry which accepts same sex marriages and relationships."

As for your comment "I'd say that there is a problematic segment of the military chaplaincy."
What large compliment of individuals does not have "a problematic segment"? And from the feedback I have had from our son's one an active army reservist and the other who is an active duty Air Force 1st Sargent, I believe it is indeed being appropriately managed.
User avatar
Ed Pettibone
 
Posts: 11136
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:46 pm
Location: .Burnt Hills, New York, Capital Area

Re: SBC Military Chaplains

Postby William Thornton » Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:24 am

Ed, the author summarized NAMB's policy as follows:

NAMB-endorsed chaplains are prohibited from:

1. Attending a wedding ceremony of a same-gender couple.
2. Performing pastoral counseling of a same-gender married couple.
3. Assisting or supporting contractors or volunteers leading same-gender relational events.
4. Offering any kind of relationship training, on or off a military installation, that would give the appearance of accepting the "homosexual lifestyle or sexual wrongdoing."
5. Conducting a service jointly with a chaplain, contractor or volunteer who personally practices or affirms a "homosexual lifestyle" or such conduct.


BP has NAMB's story here in which it is said:

"Our chaplains want to uphold the authority and relevancy of Scripture while continuing to serve in a very diverse setting," said Doug Carver, the retired Army major general who leads NAMB's chaplaincy efforts. "We believe these updated guidelines will help them do that while still sharing the love and the hope of Christ with everyone."
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 10381
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: SBC Military Chaplains

Postby Sandy » Wed Sep 18, 2013 1:32 pm

Requiring a chaplain to perform a service or to do something that compromises his religious beliefs in order to "serve his country" is a violation of his religious freedom. If the policy were in reverse, and performing same-sex marriages by military chaplains was forbidden, don't you know ABP would be screaming at full volume about that being a violation of religious freedom.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 6131
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:10 pm
Location: Rural Western Pennsylvania

Re: SBC Military Chaplains

Postby Dave Roberts » Wed Sep 18, 2013 2:38 pm

Sandy wrote:Requiring a chaplain to perform a service or to do something that compromises his religious beliefs in order to "serve his country" is a violation of his religious freedom. If the policy were in reverse, and performing same-sex marriages by military chaplains was forbidden, don't you know ABP would be screaming at full volume about that being a violation of religious freedom.


Sandy, I love your straw men. Fundamentalism always has to have one as the enemy.
"God will never be less than He is and does not need to be more" (John Koessler)

My blog: http://emporiadave.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Dave Roberts
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5891
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 2:01 pm
Location: Southside, VA

Re: SBC Military Chaplains

Postby Sandy » Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:00 pm

Dave Roberts wrote:
Sandy wrote:Requiring a chaplain to perform a service or to do something that compromises his religious beliefs in order to "serve his country" is a violation of his religious freedom. If the policy were in reverse, and performing same-sex marriages by military chaplains was forbidden, don't you know ABP would be screaming at full volume about that being a violation of religious freedom.


Sandy, I love your straw men. Fundamentalism always has to have one as the enemy.


That's a pointless response without substance. Why don't you tell us how forcing a chaplain to compromise his convictions and beliefs is not a violation of his religious freedom? If a chaplain from a denomination that endorses same sex marriage were prevented from conducting one by the chaplaincy rules, would you consider that a violation of his religious freedom?
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 6131
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:10 pm
Location: Rural Western Pennsylvania

Re: SBC Military Chaplains

Postby Dave Roberts » Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:55 pm

Sandy wrote:
Dave Roberts wrote:
Sandy wrote:Requiring a chaplain to perform a service or to do something that compromises his religious beliefs in order to "serve his country" is a violation of his religious freedom. If the policy were in reverse, and performing same-sex marriages by military chaplains was forbidden, don't you know ABP would be screaming at full volume about that being a violation of religious freedom.


Sandy, I love your straw men. Fundamentalism always has to have one as the enemy.


That's a pointless response without substance. Why don't you tell us how forcing a chaplain to compromise his convictions and beliefs is not a violation of his religious freedom? If a chaplain from a denomination that endorses same sex marriage were prevented from conducting one by the chaplaincy rules, would you consider that a violation of his religious freedom?


ABP simply published an article asking some hard questions. Under NAMB rules, no SBC chaplain could have raised those issues of a possible issues for a chaplain. The role of a military chaplain has always been a difficult one as the chaplain finds himself or herself in the position of both being part of the command structure in which they are responsible to the official chain above them and the role of answering to his or her denomination while at the same time seeking to be true to their own convictions. In reading the article, I saw no attack on the SBC but merely a set of questions about how those multiple sets of responsibilities. Having served close to bases in three churches and having had chaplains in one congregation, I am perhaps more aware of the potential conflicts. If NAMB has a fault, it is simply not trusting their own endorsed personnel to make good decisions consistent with their beliefs but instead putting a threat over the heads of those endorsed.
"God will never be less than He is and does not need to be more" (John Koessler)

My blog: http://emporiadave.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Dave Roberts
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5891
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 2:01 pm
Location: Southside, VA

Re: SBC Military Chaplains

Postby William Thornton » Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:13 pm

This article was an opinion piece by ABP, not a news piece.
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 10381
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: SBC Military Chaplains

Postby William Thornton » Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:36 pm

ABP now has an opinion piece by Al Mohler on the same subject.

Mohler says military chaplains at risk
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 10381
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: SBC Military Chaplains

Postby Dave Roberts » Wed Sep 18, 2013 6:36 pm

William Thornton wrote:ABP now has an opinion piece by Al Mohler on the same subject.

Mohler says military chaplains at risk


I don't always agree with Mohler, but I think he does recognize the difficult position in which chaplains are caught. By the way, it seems ABP does listen even to Mohler.
"God will never be less than He is and does not need to be more" (John Koessler)

My blog: http://emporiadave.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Dave Roberts
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5891
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 2:01 pm
Location: Southside, VA

Re: SBC Military Chaplains

Postby Haruo » Wed Sep 18, 2013 6:57 pm

ABP must be hip to Mohler's hidden pro-gay agenda... ;-) I mean, why else would they give him space to type?
Haruo (呂須•春男) = ᎭᎷᎣ = Leland Bryant Ross
Repeal the language taxLearn and use Esperanto
Fremont Baptist ChurchMy hymnblog
User avatar
Haruo
Site Admin
 
Posts: 9988
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 8:21 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: SBC Military Chaplains

Postby Dave Roberts » Wed Sep 18, 2013 7:25 pm

Haruo wrote:ABP must be hip to Mohler's hidden pro-gay agenda... ;-) I mean, why else would they give him space to type?


If I could, I would award a Golden Spur on that one.
"God will never be less than He is and does not need to be more" (John Koessler)

My blog: http://emporiadave.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Dave Roberts
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5891
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 2:01 pm
Location: Southside, VA

Re: SBC Military Chaplains

Postby William Thornton » Wed Sep 18, 2013 7:30 pm

ABP has used one of my pieces, conspiracy I suppose.
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 10381
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: SBC Military Chaplains

Postby Haruo » Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:35 pm

William Thornton wrote:ABP has used one of my pieces, conspiracy I suppose.

Did you cash the royalty check?
Haruo (呂須•春男) = ᎭᎷᎣ = Leland Bryant Ross
Repeal the language taxLearn and use Esperanto
Fremont Baptist ChurchMy hymnblog
User avatar
Haruo
Site Admin
 
Posts: 9988
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 8:21 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: SBC Military Chaplains

Postby William Thornton » Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:04 am

Haruo wrote:
William Thornton wrote:ABP has used one of my pieces, conspiracy I suppose.

Did you cash the royalty check?


I suppose it is still in the mail.
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 10381
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: SBC Military Chaplains

Postby Ed Pettibone » Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:41 am

Haruo wrote:ABP must be hip to Mohler's hidden pro-gay agenda... ;-) I mean, why else would they give him space to type?


Ed: They want to appear to be balanced.
User avatar
Ed Pettibone
 
Posts: 11136
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:46 pm
Location: .Burnt Hills, New York, Capital Area

Re: SBC Military Chaplains

Postby Haruo » Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:51 pm

Yeah, I was just playing to Sandy's attempt to paint ABP as gay-agenda-driven.
Haruo (呂須•春男) = ᎭᎷᎣ = Leland Bryant Ross
Repeal the language taxLearn and use Esperanto
Fremont Baptist ChurchMy hymnblog
User avatar
Haruo
Site Admin
 
Posts: 9988
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 8:21 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: SBC Military Chaplains

Postby Sandy » Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:30 pm

Dave Roberts wrote:
William Thornton wrote:ABP now has an opinion piece by Al Mohler on the same subject.

Mohler says military chaplains at risk


I don't always agree with Mohler, but I think he does recognize the difficult position in which chaplains are caught. By the way, it seems ABP does listen even to Mohler.


Only when he doesn't say something that completely contradicts their perspective, or when they think he's said something that they think makes Southern Baptists look like a bunch of raving fundamentalists.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 6131
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:10 pm
Location: Rural Western Pennsylvania

Next

Return to SBC News and Trends

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 1 guest