Homeschooling and the SBC

Discuss current news and trends taking place in the Southern Baptist Convention.

Moderator: William Thornton

Re: Homeschooling and the SBC

Postby Dave Roberts » Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:26 pm

Sandy wrote:So is moral relativism, which is the conclusion of humanist thinking, along with situational ethics.


Sandy, I am no fan of situation ethics, but to lump it as secular humanism says that you have not read broadly enough in the field. The original book, "Situation Ethics," by Joseph Fletcher, was written by a Christian and a member of the Harvard Divinity School faculty in the 1960's. Fletcher began his explorations in the realm of medical decision-making where the choices are not between simple questions of right and wrong but between choices with shaded gray colors. I think Fletcher moved too broadly, but to lump Fletcher into secular humanism, as you have done, reflects a second-hand type of thinking rather than an encounter with the initial author. If you have read Fletcher's book, I will give you more latitude, but if you haven't, you are painting with a broad brush.
"God will never be less than He is and does not need to be more" (John Koessler)

My blog: http://emporiadave.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Dave Roberts
Site Admin
 
Posts: 6042
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 2:01 pm
Location: Southside, VA

Re: Homeschooling and the SBC

Postby Timothy Bonney » Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:48 pm

Basically what Sandy appears to want out of the public schools is that they teach a very specific brand of Christian faith that meets with the approval of a segment of Christianity. Of course that isn't possible or advisable. The purpose of public education is to give students the educational basics that are the common need of all US citizens. If you want religious faith taught then send your kid to church. That is what the Church is here for.
Tim Bonney
Senior Pastor
Grace United Methodist Church
Sioux City, Iowa
Blog - http://circuitwriter.org
User avatar
Timothy Bonney
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3710
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:17 am
Location: Sioux City, Iowa

Re: Homeschooling and the SBC

Postby Sandy » Wed Jun 19, 2013 11:01 pm

Timothy Bonney wrote:Basically what Sandy appears to want out of the public schools is that they teach a very specific brand of Christian faith that meets with the approval of a segment of Christianity. Of course that isn't possible or advisable. The purpose of public education is to give students the educational basics that are the common need of all US citizens. If you want religious faith taught then send your kid to church. That is what the Church is here for.


You consistently insist on separating the domains of faith and education. It cannot be done. I am not asking for the public education system to teach a "very specific brand of Christianity." Actually, I do not favor the public education system teaching Christianity at all, since it does such a poor job of teaching just about everything else. I want families to have educational choice, and not have the philosophical trash of public education force fed to them if they don't want it. And they shouldn't be forced to pay for it. There is no violation of the principle of "separation of church and state" (which is not in the constitution) if the government has determined that it is responsible for providing funding for education. They've been doing it for years through grant programs to colleges and universities. That way, people who do not believe that Christian faith and the rest of life are supposed to be separate can have their children educated in a quality environment, supporting their values and their beliefs. Humanists get away with control of the public education system because somehow, being anti-religious can't be defined as being "religious" even though the philosophy is very much the same.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 6362
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:10 pm
Location: Rural Western Pennsylvania

Re: Homeschooling and the SBC

Postby Neil Heath » Wed Jun 19, 2013 11:19 pm

After reading this topic, I have to say I agree with Timothy and Dave, and disagree with Sandy. I am married to a teacher and have seen and heard much of elementary school life for 30 years. Perhaps Sandy is referring to something at the HS level that I haven't seen.

I have seen countless students come to my campus ministry program from public schools with solid faith in Christ, and have never heard one complain about what they were taught in HS as being un-Christian in any way.

I would add that in my 30 years of work with college students, I could count on one hand the number of professors I have heard criticized for the kind of things Sandy seems to believe are rampant in education. I have heard plenty of criticism of profs, but for assignments, tests, etc.

I fail to see what Sandy sees.
Neil Heath
User avatar
Neil Heath
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1762
Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2006 9:39 pm
Location: Macon, GA

Re: Homeschooling and the SBC

Postby Michael Wrenn » Thu Jun 20, 2013 2:40 am

Well, I taught public school for 14 years, and I agree with much of what Sandy says.

I think the federal government has destroyed the quality of public education in this country.
Michael Wrenn
 
Posts: 82
Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2013 12:10 pm

Re: Homeschooling and the SBC

Postby Sandy » Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:14 am

Neil Heath wrote:After reading this topic, I have to say I agree with Timothy and Dave, and disagree with Sandy. I am married to a teacher and have seen and heard much of elementary school life for 30 years. Perhaps Sandy is referring to something at the HS level that I haven't seen.

I have seen countless students come to my campus ministry program from public schools with solid faith in Christ, and have never heard one complain about what they were taught in HS as being un-Christian in any way.

I would add that in my 30 years of work with college students, I could count on one hand the number of professors I have heard criticized for the kind of things Sandy seems to believe are rampant in education. I have heard plenty of criticism of profs, but for assignments, tests, etc.

I fail to see what Sandy sees.


I can appreciate the anecdotal evidence that has been provided in this thread. The information about what I've said is readily available, you can pull curriculum guides or state standards off the internet. Of course, if you don't use the Bible as an objective standard for Christian theology, and you accept evolutionary theory and homosexuality as norms, and you think faith and the rest of life are separate domains, then you're probably not going to see a lot to which you would object. I, too, am married to a teacher, and my wife and I both have recent experience in the public education system. We know exactly what is there.

Michael Wrenn wrote:I think the federal government has destroyed the quality of public education in this country.


In some ways, I would agree with that. NCLB, the Bush 43 educational "initiative" was largely drawn from the Texas model that H. Ross Perot helped to put in place when he decided that the best way to run an education system was like a "bidness," and tie test scores to bonus money and salary increases. I cannot imagine the shrieking, contorting and screaming that the tea party would have done had this been an Obama administration program, but it was Bush, and so nothing was said, and their hypocrisy is evident. The Common Core standards, adopted by 45 states as a result of NCLB, are drawn from UNESCO documents. Now there's something to wrap your mind around. The last Republican President is responsible for interjecting the US Department of Education into the individual states by strong arm tactics which threatens them with loss of federal funds if they don't adopt the program, which is, itself, a product of one of the most liberal, socialist-dominated organizations of the United Nations. In one fell swoop he violated state's rights, spent an inordinate amount of money in bribery, and promoted socialism. And they let him do it. I never heard Rush, or Glenn, or Sean, or even Anne Coulter, ever object to it.

But the Feds are not the only ones responsible. Go back to that H. Ross Perot Texas "bidness" model for schools. That worked well, if the goal was to plummet the state's education department to the bottom of the pile, and cause the State Department of Education in Mississippi to raise their hands and say, "Thank God for Texas!" The idea that test scores should be tied to compensation simply caused education systems, state by state, to do several things. One, they developed curriculum that "teaches to the test," which, as much as Bush liked to think that was a reasonable goal, narrowed the curriculum and forced teachers to direct their time and effort only to test material. When I taught in the public school, we spent nine, yes, nine days a year working on benchmarks. By the time the kids took the test, they were burned out by all of the testing. Two, the corruption is rampant, with administrators erasing answers and putting in correct ones, falsifying scores, telling certain students not to show up at school on test days. This is why 80% of the students who are admitted to medical school in the US come from outside the country.

I've looked at Common Core. For one thing, our school will not be teaching that there is truth in all world religions, and that each of them has a valid point that connects them to God. For another, I would be embarrassed if that's all our students could do at the end of each grade level. Our kids are reading, and writing, and using a graphic application on a computer by the end of first grade. In the public system, that doesn't occur until third grade, and they only have to achieve 70% of the objectives to be considered "proficient."
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 6362
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:10 pm
Location: Rural Western Pennsylvania

Re: Homeschooling and the SBC

Postby Timothy Bonney » Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:44 am

Sandy wrote: Of course, if you don't use the Bible as an objective standard for Christian theology, and you accept evolutionary theory and homosexuality as norms....


Sandy are you blind to this kind of statement or do you realize just how provocative and unfair the above statement is?

1. If I believe that the Bible teaches X
2. and You believe the Bible teaches Y
3. Then, since I'm right and you are wrong, you are not using the Bible as an objective standard for Christian theology.

In multiple areas of theology Christians who use the Bible seriously and faithfully often come up with different interpretations of scripture. To say that people who don't end up with your interpretation of scripture, particularly on theological side issues like how God created the world and homosexuality, aren't using the Bible as an objective standard for Christian theology is naive at best and at worst is willfully blind to the possibility that the Bible can be read seriously and that two Christians can do so and end up seeing what the Bible says differently.

Taken to its logical conclusion such a view leads to the idea that only YOUR (or my) interpretation of scripture is correct, only YOUR (or my) denomination or church teaches it correctly and everyone else is wrong.
Tim Bonney
Senior Pastor
Grace United Methodist Church
Sioux City, Iowa
Blog - http://circuitwriter.org
User avatar
Timothy Bonney
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3710
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:17 am
Location: Sioux City, Iowa

Re: Homeschooling and the SBC

Postby Sandy » Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:31 am

Timothy Bonney wrote:In multiple areas of theology Christians who use the Bible seriously and faithfully often come up with different interpretations of scripture.


I hear this a lot. Since college, I've not accepted the contention, usually from secular critics, that Christianity lacks unity of theology and belief because there are "thousands of different church groups that all believe different things."

Not really.

Across the denominational spectrum of Protestant and Evangelical Christian expression, there is really very little difference of interpretation. On some issues, where corroboration and cultural contexts don't offer a definitive answer, perhaps, though Bible translation has provided a lot of clarification. But the idea that one Christian is going to sit down over there and come up with something completely different than the guy who is sitting over here just doesn't hold water. The wider Christian community is served by an expansive publishing business that stands on such common ground that companies which were once exclusively denominational houses now serve millions of people beyond their denominational base. Collaborative Bible translation has done a lot, and when you have individuals like Rick Warren, Beth Moore, Max Lucado, Bill Hybels, James MacDonald and some others who are as widely read and their materials as widely used across the spectrum of Christianity as they are, the differences are becoming less and less significant. We have moved into a post-denominational age, and the non-denominational church will, within a generation, become the dominant feature of American Christianity. A lot of factors have contributed to this, not the least of which has been liberal Protestantism and shooting cannons at gnats over "differences."
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 6362
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:10 pm
Location: Rural Western Pennsylvania

Re: Homeschooling and the SBC

Postby Timothy Bonney » Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:13 pm

Sandy you are just showing your lack of knowledge about other denominations and Christians in the above post. Being in a post denominational world doesn't mean that we are moving into a Christian homogeneity or a nebulous unity of theology. In fact far from it. The further I get away from my Southern Baptists roots the more diversity I see in different parts of Christianity that I either wasn't exposed to or was not encouraged to notice. It reminds me when I took Baptist history at SBTS using Torbet's book on Baptist history and then was only assigned to read the chapters about the SBC totally ignoring the ABC related chapters and the fact that the author himself was an American Baptist.

Let me suggest that rather than there being a such a wide commonality you haven't read enough of the theology of other denominational perspectives so you are seeing those denomination's views through the lens of your own theological background.

Frankly your comment about shooting "cannons at gnats" left me incredulous given that you are shooting huge cannons at gnats over creationism and views on sexuality, none of which are core theological issues for most of Christian theology yet you see them as important enough to have schools just to make sure the right view on these issues is taught.

Your above post is frankly a stunning example of the conservative evangelical enclave you choose to live in. It is also a stunning example of what is wrong with having evangelical Christians going only to evangelical Christian schools, hanging out with evangelical Christian people, and living out their entire lives surrounded by people with their same world view, same theology, and same church culture. You quickly begin to think either that everyone who is Christian is like you. Or worse, that everyone who is Christian ought to be or has to be like you. It just ain't so Sandy.
Tim Bonney
Senior Pastor
Grace United Methodist Church
Sioux City, Iowa
Blog - http://circuitwriter.org
User avatar
Timothy Bonney
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3710
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:17 am
Location: Sioux City, Iowa

Re: Homeschooling and the SBC

Postby Sandy » Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:26 pm

Timothy Bonney wrote:Frankly your comment about shooting "cannons at gnats" left me incredulous given that you are shooting huge cannons at gnats over creationism and views on sexuality, none of which are core theological issues for most of Christian theology yet you see them as important enough to have schools just to make sure the right view on these issues is taught.


I think you've become locked up in your mainline, Methodist bubble, you have a long standing resentment of Southern Baptists and other evangelicals because they didn't see things your way, and they didn't move the way you wanted them to go, and you aren't willing to accept anything that would lead someone to even remotely identify you in that way. As a result, you find fault with their theology, and with everything they do, and you oppose it almost as if it were a political issue. That can be self-satisfying up to a point, but it isn't very realistic. I know. I've been there.

Edit 6/21/13: I will add that I've been in the Christian school business for about twenty of the last thirty years. Nothing here is forced, everything is voluntary, and people come to us. If you want to see one place where people from a very broad spectrum of denominations and different Christian backgrounds gather together with a unified purpose, go to the closest independent Christian school in your community. Doctrinal and theological disputes are rare. In Texas, we had a broad segment of the Christian community involved, including a strong contingent from mainline Protestant congregations who had no trouble agreeing with our approach to an authoritative, inerrant, infallible Bible and our position on evolution and creation. Here, in the Northeast, it is even a more diverse group. We have over 60 churches represented in our student body, from Catholics to Charismatics, and everything in between. A slight majority of our students come from families who attend independent, non-denominational Evangelical churches, but most of them were involved in some denominational congregation before moving. And while the school is affiliated with the Christian and Missionary Alliance, the largest single denominational constituency is Presbyterian of one sort or another. Most of those belong to churches that have recently dropped their PCUSA affiliation and joined the EPC. We also have a lot of Wesleyans and Methodists, and Baptists of various stripes who are not from a Calvinist perspective. With all of that, there is very little disagreement on the major interpretations of scripture. Those people have their kids here because they know what our educational philosophy is. If our government made school a choice, instead of a monopoly, we'd quadruple our enrollment the moment that happened.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 6362
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:10 pm
Location: Rural Western Pennsylvania

Re: Homeschooling and the SBC

Postby Dave Roberts » Fri Jun 21, 2013 10:37 am

How well prepared are "Christian schools" to deal with special needs children. For example, my son started school with a young man who required a personal aide with him to be able to function in the classroom. The school system provided personal aides to several children, and these were trained to help those with special needs. Here, our school 7:30 and ended around 5:00. Two of the families with autistic children were sending other children to a private school, but they knew the public program was available to them and used it. Will the private sector help special needs children?

Also, my wife once worked as an aide in a special school (that was part of a public school system) for emotionally disturbed children. This provided both educational care with specially trained teachers and had consulting psychologists and psychiatrists. Do we not have a Christian duty to the "least of these?" Also, few private schools provide vocational education for students who may not have the support, the capability, or the drive to do post-secondary work. There are not courses in printing, masonry, auto mechanics, administrative support skills, drafting, and 3-d CAD in any of our local private schools. Are Christian schools broad enough to take these functions?
"God will never be less than He is and does not need to be more" (John Koessler)

My blog: http://emporiadave.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Dave Roberts
Site Admin
 
Posts: 6042
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 2:01 pm
Location: Southside, VA

Re: Homeschooling and the SBC

Postby Timothy Bonney » Fri Jun 21, 2013 11:27 am

Sandy wrote:
I think you've become locked up in your mainline, Methodist bubble, you have a long standing resentment of Southern Baptists and other evangelicals because they didn't see things your way, and they didn't move the way you wanted them to go,


Sandy, no doubt I don't like the direction the SBC went or the methodology and tactics of the takeover. But that has little to nothing to do with my views on evangelical Christian elementary and secondary schools.

I've had friends for many years that had bad experiences with such conservative sectarian Christian education. I already mentioned my wife who attended briefly a Church of Christ school that tried to tell her that she wasn't saved. I knew about that long before either of us ever left the SBC or even considered it.

I've served in ministry in several towns where there was a "Christian" school that taught some particular form of fundamentalist theology in their education. Most of them were not Baptist. Most of them were some independent group of fundamentalists or charismatics. And as a Southern Baptist at the time, I did not like what they were about.

As to "bubbles," unlike my experience in the SBC, American Baptists and United Methodists both are highly ecumenically involved. I have had opportunities to worship in many more and kinds of churches as an American Baptist and now United Methodist than I ever did as a Southern Baptist.

No, I'm not the one creating or promoting little bubble schools to keep children from being exposed to science or to encourage young people to have negative views towards people who aren't like them.

No, it has little to do with me not liking the SBC. It has a lot to do with me not having ever been a fundamentalist.
Tim Bonney
Senior Pastor
Grace United Methodist Church
Sioux City, Iowa
Blog - http://circuitwriter.org
User avatar
Timothy Bonney
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3710
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:17 am
Location: Sioux City, Iowa

Cut to the chase

Postby Stephen Fox » Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:45 pm

Has William read Giberson and Stephens the Anointed, And when can we expect a blog at Plodder of the level of his magisterial review of the provocative book on Lottie Moon by the Arkansas Woman?
"I'm the only sane {person} in here." Doyle Hargraves, Slingblade
"Midget, Broom; Helluva campaign". Political consultant, "Oh, Brother..."


http://www.foxofbama.blogspot.com or google asfoxseesit
Stephen Fox
 
Posts: 7983
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 9:29 pm

Re: Homeschooling and the SBC

Postby Sandy » Sat Jun 22, 2013 8:01 am

Dave Roberts wrote:How well prepared are "Christian schools" to deal with special needs children. For example, my son started school with a young man who required a personal aide with him to be able to function in the classroom. The school system provided personal aides to several children, and these were trained to help those with special needs. Here, our school 7:30 and ended around 5:00. Two of the families with autistic children were sending other children to a private school, but they knew the public program was available to them and used it. Will the private sector help special needs children?

Also, my wife once worked as an aide in a special school (that was part of a public school system) for emotionally disturbed children. This provided both educational care with specially trained teachers and had consulting psychologists and psychiatrists. Do we not have a Christian duty to the "least of these?" Also, few private schools provide vocational education for students who may not have the support, the capability, or the drive to do post-secondary work. There are not courses in printing, masonry, auto mechanics, administrative support skills, drafting, and 3-d CAD in any of our local private schools. Are Christian schools broad enough to take these functions?


It varies from school to school. Special needs children are a significant percentage of the student population and that includes the Christian population, and most accredited Christian schools have trained their faculty in differentiated instruction, known also as "mainstreaming," to implement the accommodations and modifications provided on an IEP. In Pennsylvania, where things like transportation, vocational education and special needs services, are not considered "religious" in nature, the state must pay for testing, special equipment and psychological services regardless of where the student attends school. Since they bear the cost for testing and support, we can provide reading and math support, a Barton reading instructor for dyslexic children, and speech therapy. Two of our staff members are also certified learning disabilities therapists through the National Institute for Learning Disabilities, which provides weekly therapy sessions to help kids "learn around" their disability. The public schools won't get involved with NILD because of the cost. Meeting special needs is an accreditation point within our Christian school association. In every school where I've worked, we had families with special needs kids seek us out because the quality of service they were receiving in the public school system was so poor.

In our state, Vo-tech education is provided by the county, through the local junior college district. Any student enrolled at our school attends basic courses at our campus, and goes to the vo-tech school, about seven miles away, in the afternoon. We have nine kids enrolled right now. But Christian vo-tech schools, and special emphasis schools like health careers, or law enforcement, are growing in number.

We are NOT training our kids to "keep them from being exposed to science" or to "encourage them to have negative views toward people who aren't like them." We expose our kids to the whole truth about evolutionary theory, which the public school system refuses to do, and we teach our kids that the most important teaching of Jesus, next to loving God with all their heart, is loving their neighbor as themselves. We don't teach them to avoid people that aren't like they are, whether that be race, physical appearance, mental condition, religious belief or sexual orientation. We teach them to love them like Jesus loved them, which means learning how to help them understand the gospel that they have been blessed with. They need Christian discipleship in order to grow, and that's what we do. The picture that Christian school critics paint of the sheltered kid unable to "deal with the real world" is stereotypical and far from reality. Our graduates are much less likely to leave the church after college, and much more likely to be its leaders, whether as laypeople or vocational ministers and missionaries.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 6362
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:10 pm
Location: Rural Western Pennsylvania

Re: Homeschooling and the SBC

Postby Dave Roberts » Sat Jun 22, 2013 8:19 am

Sandy, I must say that your school is quite the exception to what I have experienced. First, the dominant private school in our area has one special education teacher serving k-12. Second, any classes involving the local junior college, whether these are AP or vocational courses, must be paid for separately in addition to the fees for the student's enrollment at the private schools. Third, the state funds nothing, so the private schools have to provide their own transportation systems. Public buses pick up only public school children and private school buses deliver students only to the private schools. My area is crisscrossed by public school buses and by two separate private schools. Your system sound exceedingly different from anything I have experienced in VA or NC over the past forty years.
"God will never be less than He is and does not need to be more" (John Koessler)

My blog: http://emporiadave.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Dave Roberts
Site Admin
 
Posts: 6042
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 2:01 pm
Location: Southside, VA

Re: Homeschooling and the SBC

Postby Sandy » Sat Jun 22, 2013 8:42 am

Dave Roberts wrote:Sandy, I must say that your school is quite the exception to what I have experienced. First, the dominant private school in our area has one special education teacher serving k-12. Second, any classes involving the local junior college, whether these are AP or vocational courses, must be paid for separately in addition to the fees for the student's enrollment at the private schools. Third, the state funds nothing, so the private schools have to provide their own transportation systems. Public buses pick up only public school children and private school buses deliver students only to the private schools. My area is crisscrossed by public school buses and by two separate private schools. Your system sound exceedingly different from anything I have experienced in VA or NC over the past forty years.


You're in mostly red states. I'm in a blue state. There's a difference. Pennsylvania, along with other Northeastern states, recognized a long time ago that there is nothing inherently "religious" about a kid riding a bus to a school, and that parents who send their kids to religious based schools also pay taxes. That is mainly thanks to the influence of groups like the Quakers and Mennonites, who both have extensive private school networks, and the Catholics. And Democratic politicians who realize that they are not compromising religious freedom or church-state separation by providing resources in this way.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 6362
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:10 pm
Location: Rural Western Pennsylvania

Re: Homeschooling and the SBC

Postby Michael Wrenn » Sat Jun 22, 2013 2:51 pm

Just want to say that homosexuality is not a "side" issue. New scripturally faithful groups such as the Anglican Church of North America (ACNA) and the Anglican Mission in the Americas (AMiA) certainly didn't think it was a side issue, as they thought it important enough to separate from the sodomite-affirming/celebrating Episcopal Church.
Michael Wrenn
 
Posts: 82
Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2013 12:10 pm

Re: Homeschooling and the SBC

Postby Dave Roberts » Sat Jun 22, 2013 3:59 pm

Sandy wrote:You're in mostly red states. I'm in a blue state. There's a difference. Pennsylvania, along with other Northeastern states, recognized a long time ago that there is nothing inherently "religious" about a kid riding a bus to a school, and that parents who send their kids to religious based schools also pay taxes. That is mainly thanks to the influence of groups like the Quakers and Mennonites, who both have extensive private school networks, and the Catholics. And Democratic politicians who realize that they are not compromising religious freedom or church-state separation by providing resources in this way.


In the area where I live now, the private schools are across county lines and counties cannot bus students outside their jurisdictions, except for special events with school board permission.
"God will never be less than He is and does not need to be more" (John Koessler)

My blog: http://emporiadave.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Dave Roberts
Site Admin
 
Posts: 6042
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 2:01 pm
Location: Southside, VA

Re: Homeschooling and the SBC

Postby Timothy Bonney » Sat Jun 22, 2013 8:38 pm

Michael Wrenn wrote:Just want to say that homosexuality is not a "side" issue. New scripturally faithful groups such as the Anglican Church of North America (ACNA) and the Anglican Mission in the Americas (AMiA) certainly didn't think it was a side issue, as they thought it important enough to separate from the sodomite-affirming/celebrating Episcopal Church.


Simply because people can make mountains out of molehills it does not mean that molehills are actually mountains.
Tim Bonney
Senior Pastor
Grace United Methodist Church
Sioux City, Iowa
Blog - http://circuitwriter.org
User avatar
Timothy Bonney
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3710
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:17 am
Location: Sioux City, Iowa

Re: Homeschooling and the SBC

Postby Timothy Bonney » Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:44 pm

Sandy wrote:And Democratic politicians who realize that they are not compromising religious freedom or church-state separation by providing resources in this way.


Few Democrats would agree with them Sandy. But, Democrat or Republican, using money I paid in taxes to pay for someone else's religious instruction is a violation of separation of church and state and my religious freedom.
Tim Bonney
Senior Pastor
Grace United Methodist Church
Sioux City, Iowa
Blog - http://circuitwriter.org
User avatar
Timothy Bonney
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3710
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:17 am
Location: Sioux City, Iowa

Re: Homeschooling and the SBC

Postby Dave Roberts » Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:42 am

I have checked for religious schools in my area. There are two small schools in my area. One is operated by a fundamentalist Baptist church (1611 KJV only) and has fewer than 20 students. It appears to be homeschooling done in the church with the pastor delivering a morning sermon to the children. Girls must wear dresses (knee length or below and boys must wear long pants. The second is in an Independent Christian Church and also has fewer than 25 students. Curriculum appears to be Beka with teachers serving 3 grades each and ending at 7th grade. It has been in two different locations since it was founded about 8 years ago.
"God will never be less than He is and does not need to be more" (John Koessler)

My blog: http://emporiadave.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Dave Roberts
Site Admin
 
Posts: 6042
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 2:01 pm
Location: Southside, VA

Re: Homeschooling and the SBC

Postby Sandy » Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:55 am

Timothy Bonney wrote:
Sandy wrote:And Democratic politicians who realize that they are not compromising religious freedom or church-state separation by providing resources in this way.


Few Democrats would agree with them Sandy. But, Democrat or Republican, using money I paid in taxes to pay for someone else's religious instruction is a violation of separation of church and state and my religious freedom.


It is a violation of my religious freedom, and an egregious crossing over of the boundary of separation of church and state for my tax dollars to go to support a public educational monopoly that systematically teaches a philosophy that is religious in nature in that it diametrically opposes my religious beliefs, and is systematically designed to oppose, and undermine, Christian faith. When teachers being trained for the public education system are taught that religious beliefs, and in particular Christian beliefs, are the underlying reason for most of society's problems, and the way to resolve the problems of humanity is to eliminate religious prejudice, then they have crossed the separation boundary. Using money I paid in taxes to pay for someone's ability to undermine my beliefs and my faith through the monopoly of the public education system is a violation of separation of church and state and my religious freedom.

The Democrat who is President of the United States has chosen to send his daughters to a school that operates under a distinctively "religious" philosophy of education, rooted in the Quaker faith, and operating under a model that is based on Biblical principles. At that same school are students from the District of Columbia who use an "Opportunity Scholarship voucher" to pay their tuition and fees. Last time I checked, we still live in a Democracy, and since it operates under a Republican form of government in which the people determine what their government can and cannot do, apparently there are a majority of taxpayers in the District of Columbia, which voted 92% Democratic in the last presidential election, who believe that if the government has decided it will financially underwrite the education of students through the twelfth grade, those parents who choose not to send their children to low quality, secular humanist dominated public schools can still exercise their choice and send them to a school that supports their values. That is the kind of religious neutrality that the government is supposed to show, and I am glad to see that our President, and the members of the Democratic party in Congress, are supportive of it.

I'd be perfectly happy with a plan that allows you to make a choice, and designate your school taxes to the public system, even while it robs families in your church of their beliefs and faith, and secularizes your children against your preaching and teaching. It is only fair for those who don't want to see that happen to designate their tax money to some other kind of education that is more in line with their values and their beliefs. I'm all in favor of a government that is religiously neutral, and a public education system that practices the same, but that's not what we have.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 6362
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:10 pm
Location: Rural Western Pennsylvania

Re: Homeschooling and the SBC

Postby Timothy Bonney » Sun Jun 23, 2013 3:02 pm

Sandy wrote:I'd be perfectly happy with a plan that allows you to make a choice, and designate your school taxes to the public system, even while it robs families in your church of their beliefs and faith, and secularizes your children against your preaching and teaching.


Sandy there is no nice way to say this. The above is bull. It is an absolute untruth and a complete fabrication. It is completely insulting. Frankly I'd be afraid to send anyone to a school that sounds like the stuff you are espousing. THAT would be teaching children things that go against my preaching and teaching.

If public schools are so anti-Christian how about we get a show of hands of how many of us on BL.com attended public and not private schools and are now now in the Christian ministry? (You can count me as the first of most everyone here I bet. )

This has all just become so insulting to good Christian people in public education. Sure I knew some non-Christian teachers. (Most of which were good teachers too by the way.) But most of my teachers were in fact Christians who attended church regularly. When I felt my call to ministry is was my High School Counselor, a dedicated Christian, who help me choose subjects more in keeping with ministry than engineering. My music teacher at my High School (who also taught me violin) was an active member of the Episcopal Church just around the corner from Kirkwood Baptist. My science teacher was a member of my church. I could go on and on naming good Christians who teach in public schools I attended and who teach in the public schools I work with now. I'm insulted on their behalf. I'm insulted on behalf of the counselor from a school in this area who visited a bereaved family with with me when they lost a child because she was so concerned about them. I'm insulted on behalf of our administrators in the schools in this area who are caring people of faith. This whole conversation has turned into a travesty of belittling and insult of people whom you want to run down to promote your educational philsophy, your school, and your job. It is disgusting Sandy.

Keep talking Sandy, the more you talk about your view of public schools the more you scare me about private Christian schools. Another post or two like the above and I'll be recommending anywhere over a Christian private school. You are doing yourself no favors tearing down good Christian people who work in our public schools to promote and defend your commitment to private conservative Christian education. :brick: For shame Sandy! You owe all those Christian public school teachers an apology.
Tim Bonney
Senior Pastor
Grace United Methodist Church
Sioux City, Iowa
Blog - http://circuitwriter.org
User avatar
Timothy Bonney
Site Admin
 
Posts: 3710
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:17 am
Location: Sioux City, Iowa

Re: Homeschooling and the SBC

Postby Sandy » Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:55 pm

The fact that the public education system is controlled by a philosophical element that is antithetical to Christian faith has no bearing on the work of those Christians who remain and work within the system. I've seen plenty of incidents where faithful Christians were fired from their jobs for being up front about their faith, and not being silent. Christians do not run the public schools.

As far as your being insulted on behalf of all of the Christians you know who work in the public education system, that chip you wear on your shoulder regarding what goes on in conservative, Evangelical churches, and in Southern Baptist churches. is showing in your reaction. When things don't move in your direction, and someone disagrees with you, you are insulted. Fine. Be insulted and cite your anecdotal evidence in support. It doesn't change the reality of the situation in the public education system.

Timothy Bonney wrote:Keep talking Sandy, the more you talk about your view of public schools the more you scare me about private Christian schools. Another post or two like the above and I'll be recommending anywhere over a Christian private school. You are doing yourself no favors tearing down good Christian people who work in our public schools to promote and defend your commitment to private conservative Christian education. :brick: For shame Sandy! You owe all those Christian public school teachers an apology.


Recommend whatever you like. As long as there are churches which condone homosexuality, and teach evolutionary theory as scientific fact, and as long as public schools suppress and restrict free expression of Christian faith within their walls, there will be lines of families and children at our doors.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 6362
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:10 pm
Location: Rural Western Pennsylvania

Re: Homeschooling and the SBC

Postby Bruce Gourley » Sun Jun 23, 2013 11:51 pm

Sandy, I truly do not understand why you insist upon betraying your Baptist faith heritage. Our faith forebears shed their blood to separate church and state, insisting that the government had no business allying with or peddling any faith, including Christianity. Many non-Baptist Christian leaders in the late 18th and early 19th centuries were angered that America had been founded as a secular nation, and denounced our nation's founders -- Washington, Jefferson, Madison and others -- as heretics and infidels for their part in leading America away from Christianity. Baptists, however, had finally fulfilled their two-centuries long quest, and were very pleased.

This heritage has been true for almost all of our history. In very recent history, in the early 1960s, Baptists -- liberal, progressive, moderate, conservative and fundamentalist -- collectively supported Supreme Court decisions outlawing government-sponsored prayer in public schools. As Baptists of old had insisted, these modern Baptists knew that government had no business allying with or peddling any faith; coerced faith is false faith.

That many Baptists today have turned their back on their faith traditions astounds me.

Today's public school system in America, in its secularness (thank you, Baptist forebears), is in some respects more Christian than many so-called Christian schools -- public schools strive to treat children equally, educate the poor and marginalized, follow the Baptist tradition of church state separation, and strive to teach truth when it comes to science (and other disciplines) rather than dispensing religious mythology (it is telling that only in the late 20th century did it become popular among some Christians to insist that Christians must believe in six-day creationism; and how would you like for your kids to be taught the Hindu creation story, or a Native American creation story, or fill in the blank).

The problem for some Christians today is that they want to indoctrinate their children in religious dogma, are afraid of people outside their religious ghetto, and are also afraid of following the search for truth, wherever that search leads. That people of God -- the God of all truth -- would be afraid of the search for truth is another thing that mystifies me.

(Disclaimer: I am a proud product of public schooling. And I'm very pleased that my child is in a public school.)
User avatar
Bruce Gourley
Site Admin
 
Posts: 2952
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:25 pm
Location: Montana

PreviousNext

Return to SBC News and Trends

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 2 guests

cron