Where Frank Page's Calvinist Team Missed the Mark

[William Thornton]

[Dave Roberts]

Reading your comments about candid conversations being done in secret reminds me of the SBC Peace Committee--fifteen years before the candid discussions could be seen. By then, the discussions were irrelevant.

[Tim Bonney]

William,

Those are very insightful comments about the report. I think I understand a lot more about what is going on in the SBC with Calvinism and "non-calvinism" reading your writing than I would have just reading the Team's report.

My best guess as to why they'd not want to mention Calvinist pastors not being forth coming is that it would point out the obvious problem that Traditionalist (non-calvinist) pastors were MORE forthcoming than Calvinist pastors and that wouldn't sit well with some Calvinist leaders.

I don't know about SBC search committees now because I've not talked to one in more than twenty years. But the one little SBC church I pastored in Illinois was far from forthcoming about their conflicts, who really ran the church, and the size of the church's building debt. I was young and naive and didn't find out until I was there several weeks just how dire their financial condition was.

Over the years I did meet with a number of ABC search committees and frankly it was a real mixed bag. Some were truthful. The church in Rushville had the best search committee I ever worked with and part of the consequence of that is that I was there over seven years because we both were honest with each other. But I had two occasions were I broke off talks with a search committee because I figured out they weren't being honest with me.

All that being said, I think it would be good for those in power in denominations with a search/call system to tell local churches what a horrible mess is made if the search committee isn't straight with their candidates about the church, its needs, its strengths and its weaknesses. That is hard to do but in the long run everyone is happier and ministry is more fruitful.

[TrudyU]

Ed: And Tim in other than the SBC, which Baptist Denominational leaders have any real power?

[Dave Roberts]

I have to agree, William, that your analysis is excellent. You got to the heart of what is going on in the SBC. I have my doubts that the "smile and be nice" approach will suffice, but it sounds good on the surface.

The dishonesty that I'm seeing in my part of the country isn't just from churches whose search committees don't tell the whole truth. It also is from graduates from SEBTS and SBTS who are Calvinists who do not tell the churches and then get into conflict when they try to identify the elect. Several churches have been through real difficulties from those who did not tell the whole truth.

[William Thornton]

[KeithE]

It would have hit the mark better if it had explicitly included Open View enthusiasts in it’s web of acceptable beliefs worthy of joint missions. But the Open View does not yet have a large enough body of believers as say Calvinists, so it will remain a target of scorn with Bruce Ware being the theological watch/attack dog.

[Haruo]

Will wonders never cease? Calvinists who act like Jesuits!?

Seriously, if you are fundamentally convinced that
a) Calvinism is Truth and Arminianism is Error,
and that
b) local churches need to be brought out of Error into Truth
and that
c) God has not only elected you to salvation but called you to the task
and that
d) there's no way this lapsed church would hire you if you told them the Truth up front

then how on earth are you supposed to act? Didn't God bless Jacob (and diss Esau) for tricking his dad?

[Tim Bonney]

[Tim Bonney]

Maybe this is an off the wall question. But why do you think (anyone?) that the SBC does not have a position on Calvinist theology in the BFM now or in any of its previous versions?

I am guessing the Free Will Baptists or General Baptists had Arminian statements in their confessions. I'm know the UMC makes clear its theology is Arminian and the Presbyterians are clear that they follow a form of Calvinist/Reformed theology.

So why previously no official position on such a huge theological question in the SBC? What do you think?

[TrudyU]

[Sandy]

Calvinism is an influence in the SBC, though most Southern Baptists are not Calvinist. There are some churches that could probably be described as "Calvinist" though I think what you would find is that there are a few Calvinists scattered among the membership of some churches in some parts of the country. Since it has pretty much always been there, and Calvinists have been a part of SBC leadership, they've worked together.

[Tim Bonney]

I was thinking about the course in Baptist history I took at SBTS. It was an elective course in summer term. I remember the different strains of Baptist thought including General and Particular Baptists.

What I wonder is what is the impetus for setting off a Calvinist controversy since, as several of you've said, Calvinist, non-calvinists, etc. have worked together for many generations. What caused the banner of calvinism to be flown again so distinctively?

[William Thornton]

[Dave Roberts]

[Sandy]

[William Thornton]

Sandy,

The concern about evangelism may be misplaced. The only data available shows that calvinistic pastors baptize more than non-C. This is counterintuitive for many non-Cs who think Calvinists eschew evangelism. I have not found the latter to be the case.

The concern about blowing up churches is the key to this because so many SBC pastors have observed agressive Calvinistic pastors come into an established church and destroy it in order to correct the "heresy" they see (this was the term used by one Calvinist concerning his church) or to implement elder led or elder ruled polity.

There is much more awareness now and committees are more savvy concering such things. Calvinistic pastor candidates do not so much lie, I have never know of one to outright lie to a committee, as they finesse theology. Most seminary educated pastors can talk around theological things pretty good.

My adivce to committees is to ask and insist on answers. If the candidate is not fully forthcoming, move on to the next guy. If the candidate prefers not to use the terminology "Calvinist" then be sure things are defined and explained. Some enterprising Traditionalists have published a guide for committees with a title something like, "How to smoke out Calvinistic pastor candidates."

[TrudyU]

Ed: "... move on to the next guy." Come on William! What if not all worthy candidates are guys. But I know old manners of speech and writing can be hard to break. Thanks for your list.

[Sandy]

[Haruo]

[KeithE]

[William Thornton]

Let me correct that. Calvinistic pastors baptize at the same rate.

[KeithE]

[William Thornton]

You will not see much open theism in the SBC, at least not out on the open.

Some SBCers would like to root out Calvinists. Some think Calvinism can save the SBC. Some recognize that we have always had strong Calvinist influence.

[KeithE]