Disturbing Trends @ Baptist Colleges (according to Jon Akin)

[TrudyU]

Ed:Tim when Sandy says "convention" above I think he is speaking of the "State Convention", not the SBC. And BTW the SBC does own Boyce College on the SBTS campus. Although it is considered part of SBTSl They have their own President unlike the other schools of the Seminary, Christian Ed., Billy Graham School, Church Music, ect. which each have a 'DEAN".

They offer; Associate of Arts

Biblical and Theological Studies*

Bachelor of Arts

Biblical and Theological Studies*
Biblical and Theological Studies: Seminary Track
Christian Worldview and Apologetics
Expository Preaching and Pastoral Leadership

Bachelor of Science in Biblical Studies

Church Ministry (with a concentration in either Christian Leadership, Children’s Ministry or Women’s Studies)
Counseling
Missions
Music Ministry Major (This degree program is closed to new enrollments)
Worship and Pastoral Studies
Worship and Music Studies
Youth Ministry

Bachelor of Science

Elementary Education (P-5)
Humanities

Certificates

Worldview Studies Certificate

Programs

Teacher Education Program
Women’s Ministry Institute
Seminary Wives’ Institute

The Bachelor degrees require a minimum of 129 credit hours of prescribed studies. The Associate of Arts requires 60 hours.

[Sandy]

[Tim Bonney]

[Michael Wrenn]

[Sandy]

[Tim Bonney]

[Michael Wrenn]

[Michael Wrenn]

[Tim Bonney]

[Sandy]

[Sandy]

[Tim Bonney]

Sandy,

I've read the BFM in all of its versions. It does not cover all doctrinal issues. It doesn't even come close to covering all doctrinal issues. Also IMHO the doctrinal statements of many of the churches I've pastored disagree with the doctrinal statements of other Baptists churches I've pastored from small ways to some very significant differences. It is also my experience that those statements are seldom if ever enforced as church discipline, even if written into Bylaws, is almost never utilized in Baptist churches for lay members.

So since the BFM is not a comprehensive document it leaves many potential areas for divergence of views.

Do seminary and college professors have latitude within the BFM framework? Or can their boards of Trustees at whim change or add on doctrinal requirements? My guess is that they can.

As as to other seminaries moving as the wind blows. One of the Biblical metaphors for the Holy Spirit is a holy Wind. Often it is better to follow the wind of the spirit than breath the stagnent air which gathers around those who are unwilling to explore new ideas.

[Sandy]

How can you know whether the wind you are following is the Holy Spirit, if you're not convinced there is a Holy Spirit because you aren't sure whether or not you believe a part of the Bible that speaks of the Holy Spirit?

You're right, the BFM is not a comprehensive doctrinal statement. It is a confessional framework which forms the basis of cooperation. You can see, by observing any Baptist institution or convention, exactly how it is put together from a doctrinal perspective. Your argument is not even in the ball park.

[Tim Bonney]

Sandy, I give up. You see we both live in very different frameworks and understandings of what Christianity is about Sandy. And SBC polity is quite a bit different from ABC/USA polity which I lived in for most of my ministry. ABC related schools aren't owned by the ABC or any state entity. They do have academic freedom and American Baptists are fine with all that.

Seminaries have reputations for being conservative, moderate, or liberal and students tend to gravitate to the seminary that suits them.

This is very similar to the way things work in the UMC as well. So I've not lived in a system of control over theological education that you live in and approve of for over twenty years.

I honestly find the SBC system explicable no matter how often you have explained it because the idea of doctrinal control over theological education is foreign to me and my understanding of the purpose of theological education, that being to teach you how to do theology not to teach you the "right" theology.

[Tim Bonney]

Oh, and as to your question as to how you judge the winds of the spirit - scripture, tradition, reason, and experience with scripture taking the primary role.

[Sandy]

The most prolific writer of the New Testament, Paul, is pretty clear about the role of human tradition, reason, and experience in determining the veracity of revelation. He calls it "foolishness of the world." The term "academic freedom" is pretty nebulous in its application. What it generally means is that those who insist on having it want to be the ones who get to determine what is truth, which is nothing more than a purely humanist perspective. It guts the Christian faith of its spirituality and hope.

[Tim Bonney]

[Tim Bonney]

While we are at it how about I point out where Southern Baptists use Tradition, Reason, and Experience in defining church doctrine and polity.

Tradition - Baptist polity is a Baptist tradition. There is no sign of any exact church polity in the Bible. All of the rules about conventions, the BFM, enforcement of doctrines on professors but not local church is entire Tradition based on over all SBC traditions of local church autonomy, convention autonomy and school ownership.

Reason - Inerrancy is a doctrine created entirely based on human beings reasoning out a view of Biblical inspiration. You can't find "inerrancy" in the Bible. It is a theory of inspiration created by human reason to explain your view of the bible.

Experience - This one is so big you shouldn't be able to miss it. Baptists all the time talk about the experience of being saved and having a spiritual experience at that the moment of conversion. Conversion is a personal experience with God that Baptists rely on in their faith. If you toss out personal experience with God there is no opening for conversion.

Sandy if you come back and just try to tell me that Baptists just use the Bible and not their own reason in reading it, their own traditions in running their churches, and their own personal experiences with God I'm just not going to believe you.

[Sandy]

[Tim Bonney]

Again Sandy, you keep missing where I'm coming from because we believe in very different views of what Christianity is about. BTW, the majority of Wesleyan Christians in the US are United Methodists. We don't believe in inerrancy.

The idea that Southern Baptist church polity comes from the New Testament is certainly the opinion of Southern Baptists and pretty much no one else.

[Dave Roberts]

[Tim Bonney]

[Tim Bonney]

[Tim Bonney]

My opinion on polity, to be clear, is that we see hints of several different forms of church polity in the New Testament. But we see no definitive polity which can translate into the exact polity used by any modern denomination. Also, IMO, I see very few of those pointing to the idea of local autonomous congregations. I'm sure I'm in the minority here on that view. But that's how I see it. I think Baptist polity in the US is more of an American invention (and SBC polity a southern American invention) than it is any particular polity out of the New Testament. It fits the American idea of independence and self-autonomy as well as enlightenment values. It doesn't fit Paul telling churches what to do, the Jerusalem Council deciding things for the churches, etc.

And while Sandy may argue that SBC polity is New Testament polity it is going to be a huge stretch to identify Baptist Conventionism (word I just coined I think) and rules on denominationally owned school with any polity in the New Testament.

[TrudyU]