Luter Has Interesting Ideas and Friends

[Dave Roberts]

Several media outlets including ABP and the Times-Picayune have Luter givins statements backpedaling from his statements and what he had agreed to with Wiles. Guess those defending him need to reed Luter's new statements since he is backing away. Like most of us, he seems to have experienced an "open mouth, insert foot" moment.

[Tim Bonney]

[Sandy]

[Tim Bonney]

I read Luter's retraction. I'm glad that he retracted the statement but now I don't know what Sandy does with that since he so vigorously defending his mispoken view.

I was disappointed that he floated the unsubstantiated idea that some day churches will be forced to perform same sex marriages. There is NO evidence of that.

[Tim Bonney]

Sandy I appreciate your clarification. But I hope you will note that while Jesus most certainly accepts the inspiration of the Old Testament he often interprets it in a different way than it had been previously interpreted. So you still have to watch about pre-Jesus interpretations of the Old Testament sneaking their way into Christianity because they may not jive with how Jesus views the OT. We interpret the OT in light of the teachings of Jesus, we don't interpret Jesus through the OT.

If Luter didn't say what he was understood to have said than why did he retract it? Face it Sandy, he goofed. He agree with a right wing nut, maybe without thinking or maybe he really agrees with him, and then he got pressured and retracted an embarrassing statement. It is quite similar to recent gaffs by Republican candidates who ended up saying wild things about women and rape and then received pressure to recant.

I appreciate that you and I disagree on what the Bible says about homosexuality. You and I obviously disagree. I too have studied this issue for many years, read exigetical arguments, examined the meanings of the relevant words and phrases in the New Testament Greek, read commentaries etc.

I can appreciate your different opinion. What I can't understand is that if homosexuality is a sin as you believe it is that you, and may conservative Christians, raise this sin above all others as a "wake up call to Christians" or as causing death and destuction. My heavens why aren't you going after heterosexuals on the divorce rate or the rate of cohabitation?

If anything scares me about this country it isn't the possibility that my gay friends who have been in long term relationships for years might be able to get a legal marriage contract. (Which they can already do in Iowa and the state has not fallen into the abyss). What scares me is that so many people would rather protect their right to have WMD in their home under the guise of the second amendment than protect the lives of US citizenry.

We have a lot bigger problems in the country than people who love each other wanting a legal arrangement to share their lives, family, and assets.

[Sandy]

[Tim Bonney]

[Haruo]

[Tim Bonney]

[Sandy]

[Tim Bonney]

I don't know of the anecdotal experiences you've had but they certainly don't match mine with respect to mainline pastors.

As to homosexuality, I'm not going to start the 1,000th argument on the issue on this forum with you. We have come to different conclusions and that is where we will remain.

However, we are way off thread topic and no amount of discussion on what hypothetical mainliners believe about the Bible is going to make what the conservative talk show host said that Luter, at least temporarily agree to, make any sense.

[Tim Bonney]

By the way Sandy, if you want to hear the way a mainliner preaches you are welcome to go to my church's website and pull up one of my sermons. You'd find I preach directly from scripture and you can check me on that if you like. I don't remember ever quoting Borg, Spong, or Gulley though I'd not be against doing so if I happened to agree with one of their views. They aren't high on my reading list though Philip Gulley did speak at my church this year as part of a Morningside College lectureship. I agreed with some of what he said and disagreed with some of what he said. Mainliners aren't monolithic.

Most of the mainline UMC pastors I know are much more into Brian McLaren, Sean Claiborne, or Rob Bell than Borg, Funk and his crowd. Funk, Borg, and Gulley are mostly considered "old guys" now and are mostly read by older mainline pastors. I only know a few mainliners that are really into any of them.

[Haruo]

My brother Graham has been quite a fan of Borg at times. He's a layman (actually, an elder I think) and a Presbyterian. Fwiw.

[Tim Bonney]

[Dave Roberts]

[Sandy]

[Haruo]

I've only been to a Cokesbury store once. They didn't have what I was looking for (though they were very proactive about special-ordering it for me), and they were quite far from where I live, it would have been a longish drive if I had a car, and was very hard to do by bus (Mrs H and I had some other reason to be in that neck of the suburbs that day); I was looking for hymns, not theology (there's a difference??!) so I'm not sure how much "serious theology" they had on the shelf. I was sorry to hear they were closing but realistically it would have been years before I'd be back...

In Seattle, there are two interesting Episcopalian bookstores, one near Fremont and the other adjacent to their Cathedral. Both have interesting selections of books, but again I generally go for hymnals (which they have in abundance and diversity) and can't say how good they are for theology. I would guess that SPU and SU have bookstores that stock some good theology (the former has a Fuller extension campus adjacent, and the latter has an interdenominational school of theology and ministry, so I imagine they carry lots of "serious theology". But I've never visited their bookstores.

I would say a good used bookstore would be a great place to look for theology books. They tend to be run by atheists and new-agers gone gray, but they also tend to sell stuff they don't agree with.

[Tim Bonney]

That sounds very different from the Cokesbury store in Des Moines or St. Louis Sandy. I always went there for serious theological books also when I was an American Baptist. At one time American Baptists had a contract with Cokesbury as does currently the TEC and the PCUSA. I could always find ABC distinctives resources at Cokesbury and, of course, it is the main source for UMC resources.

My biggest concern with them closing the stores for online sales only is that Amazon and Barnes and Noble have snazzy websites that are much easier to navigate than Cokesbury's. They are going to have to improve their online presence if they are going to compete.

All the profits from Cokesbury goes into the UMC pension fund so I certainly try to support the store since it is a benefit to UMC clergy.

[KeithE]

[Tim Bonney]

Yes, we are way off subject Keith. But I think we've exhausted the thread subject.

You mentioned vestments. I got my first pulpit robe at Cokesbury. Since the denominations Cokesbury caters to are more likely to vest for worship I always found that to be another valuable part of the store. I hate ordering clothing online without being able to try something on or at least look at the quality of the fabric etc. I'm in the market for a white alb, often used in more liturgically oriented churches, and it is frustrating to look at online descriptions and measurement charts and wonder when I order the alb if it will be what I think I ordered.

Most of the UMC clergy I know are dismayed at the store closings. But I'm afraid that for almost all books stores the handwriting is on the wall. I can go to Amazon and have a new book on my kindle in less than a minute, never leave my house, not put another book on the shelf that I'll have to box next time I itinerate, and usually it is cheaper than the paper version.