Luter Has Interesting Ideas and Friends

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Luter Has Interesting Ideas and Friends

Postby Dave Roberts » Mon Apr 01, 2013 6:30 am

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Re: Luter Has Interesting Ideas and Friends

Postby KeithE » Mon Apr 01, 2013 6:51 am



Lunacy as you say even for an SBC President. But the right wing often connects the dots in strange ways.
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Re: Luter Has Interesting Ideas and Friends

Postby Tim Bonney » Mon Apr 01, 2013 6:58 am



I had no idea my gay and lesbian friends were so powerful! :lol: Seriously, this is one of the nuttier things I've heard in recent years.
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Re: Luter Has Interesting Ideas and Friends

Postby Dave Roberts » Mon Apr 01, 2013 7:14 am

I wish this were an April Fool's joke.
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Re: Luter Has Interesting Ideas and Friends

Postby Blake » Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:38 am

I bet I know who this year's Whoopi award is going to. :roll:
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Re: Luter Has Interesting Ideas and Friends

Postby Sandy » Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:03 am

I don't see anything "looney" or "strange" about either Luter's or Wile's view. Prophetic themes related to the downfall of nations as a result of moral decay is a common Old Testament, and historical, theme. The problem I have is when someone points to specific events and attempts to link them to specific judgments, or predict a series of events. The standard for prophetic utterances coming from God is their accuracy. If it turns out that nothing happens with North Korea, which is probably the case, will Wiles be willing to admit he was not prophetic? Probably not. Luter stayed out of the prophecy rather diplomatically, though I doubt most Southern Baptists would see this as an issue or a problem.

The other problem I have with this sort of thing is seeing it as God's judgment on "nations" under the new covenant, which is the result of Jesus's atonement and is carried out by individuals. There are examples, again in the Old Testament, of places where the consequences that came upon a nation were brought about by the wickedness of its rulers, and its people. I think it is legitimate to point to those examples as lessons from the past, and as motivation for believers to inspire them to continuous repentance and spiritual renewal. There's nothing wrong with a strong, prophetic voice coming from the church, calling us to revival, and that's something that, frankly, seems like it will pass away when Billy Graham does. There are a lot of Billy wannabees, but so far, no one I see being raised up like that.

Nor is there anything unusual about Wiles' call for activism among Christians. That's nothing new, either. The only problem some of you guys here have with that is that the right is doing it instead of the left.
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Re: Luter Has Interesting Ideas and Friends

Postby Tim Bonney » Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:19 pm

Sandy wrote:I don't see anything "looney" or "strange" about either Luter's or Wile's view.


Thank you for jumping the shark Sandy!
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Re: Luter Has Interesting Ideas and Friends

Postby Tom Parker » Mon Apr 01, 2013 8:10 pm

Sandy, we can always count on you here. :wink:

What a stupid comment by Luter!! What does such a nonsensical comment accomplish. Luter, please make it clear when you make such comments that you are not speaking for all Southern Baptists.
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Re: Luter Has Interesting Ideas and Friends

Postby Sandy » Mon Apr 01, 2013 8:47 pm

Tom Parker wrote:Sandy, we can always count on you here. :wink:

What a stupid comment by Luter!! What does such a nonsensical comment accomplish. Luter, please make it clear when you make such comments that you are not speaking for all Southern Baptists.


Which comment, specifically? Just to be on the record.

Don't you just love it when the SBC's critics get down to their best vocabulary, and their sharpest arguments? :lol:
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Re: Luter Has Interesting Ideas and Friends

Postby Tim Bonney » Mon Apr 01, 2013 8:57 pm

Sandy, the idea that the innocent are punished by God for what someone else has done is not good Christian theology, in fact it is heretical. The scriptures argue against the idea that "the Fathers have eaten sour grapes and their children's teach are set on edge" not for it. God does not punish the innocent with the guilty, period.

You can make this about us "SBC" critics if you like. But I would oppose this kind of thinking no matter who said it. It isn't because Luter is the President of the SBC that I oppose this kind of theology. It is because it is heretical theology no matter who says it.

You are making this about the SBC by defending an SBC leader just because he IS an SBC leader, not because he is right.

Also, while we are on it, the kind of bigotry that makes LGBT persons the scapegoats for every disaster or national failing is unconscionable. It is this kind of thinking that leads gay persons to be abused, attacked, and bullied because "good" religious people declare them evil giving evil persons religious cover for their abuse.
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Re: Luter Has Interesting Ideas and Friends

Postby Tom Parker » Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:07 pm

Sandy: That you try to defend Luter for this view is just plain sad on your part! Do you not realize that Luter is not helping the SBC at all?
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Re: Luter Has Interesting Ideas and Friends

Postby Tim Bonney » Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:10 pm

Proverbs 6

6 There are six things that the Lord hates,
seven that are an abomination to him:
17 haughty eyes, a lying tongue,
and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 a heart that devises wicked plans,
feet that hurry to run to evil,
19 a lying witness who testifies falsely,
and one who sows discord in a family.

Ezekiel 18:1-4

The word of the Lord came to me: 2What do you mean by repeating this proverb concerning the land of Israel, ‘The parents have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge’? 3As I live, says the Lord God, this proverb shall no more be used by you in Israel. 4Know that all lives are mine; the life of the parent as well as the life of the child is mine: it is only the person who sins that shall die.

As you can see the bolded passages, God is not for the shedding of innocent blood.
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Re: Luter Has Interesting Ideas and Friends

Postby Tom Parker » Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:15 pm

Tim: There is just no way to defend Luter's comments and his association with Wiles. What has happened to the SBC? I do not believe the people of the United States much less the world listens to the SBC anymore but the SBC just does not understand that.
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Re: Luter Has Interesting Ideas and Friends

Postby Sandy » Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:18 pm

Tim Bonney wrote:Proverbs 6

6 There are six things that the Lord hates,
seven that are an abomination to him:
17 haughty eyes, a lying tongue,
and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 a heart that devises wicked plans,
feet that hurry to run to evil,
19 a lying witness who testifies falsely,
and one who sows discord in a family.

Ezekiel 18:1-4

The word of the Lord came to me: 2What do you mean by repeating this proverb concerning the land of Israel, ‘The parents have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge’? 3As I live, says the Lord God, this proverb shall no more be used by you in Israel. 4Know that all lives are mine; the life of the parent as well as the life of the child is mine: it is only the person who sins that shall die.

As you can see the bolded passages, God is not for the shedding of innocent blood.


Interesting resort to Old Testament scripture. Are you sure you've quoted it in context? You missed Leviticus 20:13 in there. But I get that you are selective in which parts of the scripture you quote for support, and which parts you ignore. There's an interesting story in the last half of Geneis 18 you might want to read, when you talk about God not wanting to shed innocent blood.
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Re: Luter Has Interesting Ideas and Friends

Postby Sandy » Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:25 pm

Tom Parker wrote:Sandy: That you try to defend Luter for this view is just plain sad on your part! Do you not realize that Luter is not helping the SBC at all?


Luter can defend himself. You've put up no argument, all you have done is name call, which is about all you usually do.
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Re: Luter Has Interesting Ideas and Friends

Postby Tim Bonney » Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:39 pm

Sandy wrote:Interesting resort to Old Testament scripture. Are you sure you've quoted it in context? You missed Leviticus 20:13 in there. But I get that you are selective in which parts of the scripture you quote for support, and which parts you ignore. There's an interesting story in the last half of Geneis 18 you might want to read, when you talk about God not wanting to shed innocent blood.


If you read Genesis 18 you come to the conclusion that God indeed would not have destroyed the city if any righteous people could have been found. You can find no evidence in the text that any righteous person died. So I don't know where you are going with that.

I can quote a lot more scriptures if you want to get into a proof texting war. Or we can discuss progressive revelation if you'd like to do that. And we can have a huge thread about it Sandy. But I'm coming to believe that you and I believe in such different concepts of God that I'm not sure we are even believe in the same God. So I don't think there is much point.

"God is good and in him there is no darkness." "God is love." "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son..." If God punishes the innocent with the guilty then the God is not good and those scriptures in John and 1 John make no sense at all. Such a god would not be just.

Would you really want to worship a god that would kill your child to get to you, or would kill your family because someone down the street was a sinner? Such a god is not worthy of worship or obedience because such a god could never be trusted.
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Re: Luter Has Interesting Ideas and Friends

Postby Sandy » Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:12 am

You know as well as I do that the spiritual concept of guilt or innocence is God's ideal, not man's perception of what it is. Paul's authoritative discussion of it is found in Romans 3, and while I won't sling prooftexts with you over this, you know the arguments as well as I do. Since Christ, anything we receive from God that is not judgment is a blessing. The covenant relationship that existed in the OT was with Israel, and it was subject to God's judgment for disobedience to the covenant. Achan committed the sin, but the scripture clearly says that "The Lord's anger burned against Israel," and whether his family was involved, or approved, or not, they all suffered the judgment with him.

God's covenant today is with individuals through the blood of Christ. The judgment for failing that covenant is death and punishment in eternal hell. It is only grace that relieves us of that obligation. I don't believe God gives out specific words of prophetic foreknowledge related to what goes on in the world today, but I do believe that sin, and the fall of man, is responsible for the evil that happens and I do believe that prophetic voices obedient to God's word are raised up to identify things in a culture that are signs of rebellion against God, and that people need to be called to repentance and renewal as a result. However, there are those, particularly among pre-millenialists and dispensationalists, who hold a different interpretation of prophetic events, and do believe that God can, and does, use current events and circumstances to alert people to the need for repentance, or to bring about necessary judgment. I do not hold those views myself, but they are not heretical by any definition of the term, and use of that word exposes intolerance and bigotry. But I've always said that those who consider themselves "moderate" or "liberal", and pat themselves on the back for their open minded "tolerance" of homosexuality, including ordaining unrepentant homosexuals and allowing same sex couples to marry in direct rebellion to God, are intolerant bigots when it comes to more conservative views and interpretations of scripture.
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Re: Luter Has Interesting Ideas and Friends

Postby Dave Roberts » Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:52 am

Sandy wrote:You know as well as I do that the spiritual concept of guilt or innocence is God's ideal, not man's perception of what it is. Paul's authoritative discussion of it is found in Romans 3, and while I won't sling prooftexts with you over this, you know the arguments as well as I do. Since Christ, anything we receive from God that is not judgment is a blessing. The covenant relationship that existed in the OT was with Israel, and it was subject to God's judgment for disobedience to the covenant. Achan committed the sin, but the scripture clearly says that "The Lord's anger burned against Israel," and whether his family was involved, or approved, or not, they all suffered the judgment with him.

God's covenant today is with individuals through the blood of Christ. The judgment for failing that covenant is death and punishment in eternal hell. It is only grace that relieves us of that obligation. I don't believe God gives out specific words of prophetic foreknowledge related to what goes on in the world today, but I do believe that sin, and the fall of man, is responsible for the evil that happens and I do believe that prophetic voices obedient to God's word are raised up to identify things in a culture that are signs of rebellion against God, and that people need to be called to repentance and renewal as a result. However, there are those, particularly among pre-millenialists and dispensationalists, who hold a different interpretation of prophetic events, and do believe that God can, and does, use current events and circumstances to alert people to the need for repentance, or to bring about necessary judgment. I do not hold those views myself, but they are not heretical by any definition of the term, and use of that word exposes intolerance and bigotry. But I've always said that those who consider themselves "moderate" or "liberal", and pat themselves on the back for their open minded "tolerance" of homosexuality, including ordaining unrepentant homosexuals and allowing same sex couples to marry in direct rebellion to God, are intolerant bigots when it comes to more conservative views and interpretations of scripture.


Sandy, are you saying that Darbyism is orthodox? If so, then the first 1800 years of Christian history then is heretical since they could not have been right about the parousia. I'll take my chances on the first 1800 years.
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Re: Luter Has Interesting Ideas and Friends

Postby Tim Bonney » Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:48 pm

Sandy, it is not an orthodox view that God punishes the innocent with the guilty. And as David has point out Darbyism isn't the historic faith of Jesus Christ. No one in the early church, none of the reformers, no one had heard of this bizarre theory of history and eschatology before the 19th century. Doesn't that give you pause that this could be viewed as adding to the scriptures and the Christian faith?

I realize that one of the possible outcomes of Calvinism and pre-mill Dispensationalism is that God doesn't love everyone or want everyone to be saved. I'm sorry you've bought into these extremes which are not "conservative." Old time revivalistic conservative Southern Baptists that I grew up with would have never argued that God punishes innocent children in a society for the sins of there parents. They would have argued for the "age of accountability" and the grace of God until a child is able to seek out faith.

It is just the usual old saw defense to yell "liberal" any time most of the rest of the Christian world points out how out of character with the gospel it is for Christians to make such statements.
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Re: Luter Has Interesting Ideas and Friends

Postby Sandy » Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:23 pm

And of course, affirming that homosexual behavior is not sinful is orthodox Christian doctrine?

Who determines what is "orthodox"? You? A clergy board? The Pope? Some academic in an ivory tower institution with an office wall papered with degrees?

Let's see what other criticisms of Luter we can come up with here. Many African American Baptists speak in tongues. That might be a good one to dig into. Maybe he's made some statements in sermons similar to those of Jeremiah Wright, some sound bytes that can be taken out of context to make him look like a Black racist. We can't discuss Suzii's airplane commuting costs without getting some CBF'ers in a snit, but I bet we can come up with a couple of pages if Fred took several trips to minister to his congregation when they were scattered from New Orleans by Katrina...
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Re: Luter Has Interesting Ideas and Friends

Postby TrudyU » Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:10 am

"Sandy" writes, "And of course, affirming that homosexual behavior is not sinful is orthodox Christian doctrine?"


Ed: Sandy what does that question have to do with Luter, his ideas or his friends?
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Re: Luter Has Interesting Ideas and Friends

Postby Tim Bonney » Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:11 am

Sandy, go ahead and around the merry go round of fundamentalists obfuscation. Luter and the radio host said,

After Wiles shared with Luter his theory that gay rights activists are to blame for North Korea’s threats to launch a nuclear strike against the US, Luter explained that while he is “not that strong in prophecy” he would not be surprised that there might be a connection.


There is just no justification for this.

Let me make it personal. I am a gay rights activist. That is I support marriage equality so I'm sure in many people's eyes that would make me a gay rights activist. Now as far as I can tell I have done nothing which has any connection in any way whatsoever to North Korea. I don't know any North Koreans, I've not been to North Korea, at most I've read some articles about North Korea and its crazy leader.

Do you, as a Christian who agrees with Luter and Wiles, hold me responsible for the crazy leader of North Korea and his threats against the US and the rest of the world? If you do I'm just going to say it out right, you are not being either Biblical or rational.

You can believe whatever you want about gay rights. But if you are telling me that God uses his power to get nutty national leaders to threaten the world become some Christians and others believe in gay rights you have tipped over into obvious irrationality and basically equated God with theology of Westboro Baptist Church.

Come on Sandy. Surely you can't support the theology of Westboro Baptist in order to support Luter's statement can you?
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Re: Luter Has Interesting Ideas and Friends

Postby Sandy » Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:36 am

Tim Bonney wrote:Sandy, go ahead and around the merry go round of fundamentalists obfuscation. Luter and the radio host said,

After Wiles shared with Luter his theory that gay rights activists are to blame for North Korea’s threats to launch a nuclear strike against the US, Luter explained that while he is “not that strong in prophecy” he would not be surprised that there might be a connection.


There is just no justification for this.

Let me make it personal. I am a gay rights activist. That is I support marriage equality so I'm sure in many people's eyes that would make me a gay rights activist. Now as far as I can tell I have done nothing which has any connection in any way whatsoever to North Korea. I don't know any North Koreans, I've not been to North Korea, at most I've read some articles about North Korea and its crazy leader.

Do you, as a Christian who agrees with Luter and Wiles, hold me responsible for the crazy leader of North Korea and his threats against the US and the rest of the world? If you do I'm just going to say it out right, you are not being either Biblical or rational.

You can believe whatever you want about gay rights. But if you are telling me that God uses his power to get nutty national leaders to threaten the world become some Christians and others believe in gay rights you have tipped over into obvious irrationality and basically equated God with theology of Westboro Baptist Church.

Come on Sandy. Surely you can't support the theology of Westboro Baptist in order to support Luter's statement can you?


Nice try, Timothy. Why not go ahead and just find some analogy that equates Luter's statement with Hitler and National socialism while you are on this track?

God allowed the Babylonians to take his own chosen people into captivity, to wake them out of the religious haze they had fallen into because they were replacing his precepts and statutes with their own reasoning and intellect. Is it possible that he would use some crazy North Korean as a way to warn a complacent, worldly form of Christianity that has taken root in America by launching a nuke that knocks down a dam, or levels Tacoma? Previous history would suggest that, if God has done it before, it is possible. That's all I hear Luter saying. I don't hear him pointing to every death, or disaster, or political failure, and taking the authority to assign it a prophetic meaning, which is the Westboro approach. Personally, while I believe that God, in his true character, and humans, in theirs, make it possible for him to exercise whatever judgment he chooses, the covenant relationship that he engages in with humans is an individual one through the blood of Christ. God does not have a covenant with America. That doesn't preclude judgment, if he chooses, but I don't think that's the way he chooses to go.

I think the same-sex marriage issue is a wake up call for Christians in America. The Biblical definition of marriage, which Jesus himself cites as authoritative (Genesis 2:24; Mark 10:5-9; Ephesians 5:22-33) is between one man and one woman. Regardless of what the government decides to do, the church should only recognize Biblical marriages.
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Re: Luter Has Interesting Ideas and Friends

Postby TrudyU » Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:41 pm

Ed: Sandy when you say "I think the same-sex marriage issue is a wake up call for Christians in America ", I have to ask,in what way? As you answer keep in mind I am opposed to homosexuality and any societal stamp of approval for it.
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Re: Luter Has Interesting Ideas and Friends

Postby Tim Bonney » Fri Apr 05, 2013 7:17 pm

Sandy you are living in a pre-prophets and pre-New Testament understanding of God's working here. But I obviously can't talk you out of contradicting Jesus or his Apostles. You should know that there is more than one interpretation of the Babylonian captivity or in many Old Testament situation in which God has some bad event attributed to him. You know that people in the Old Testament era attributed all things to God, both good and bad, and had little concept of Satan, eternal punishment, heaven and hell etc. The Old Testament says "An eye for an eye" and Jesus says "turn the other cheek." If you are going to leave Jesus and the Apostles out of Biblical interpretation and stick with a pre-Christian interpretation of the Old Testament you will get all kinds of unorthodox interpretations out of the Bible and end up having us all obey dietary laws, Old Testament dress codes, etc.

I guess when you vote Jesus out as the criteria for Biblical interpretation you can feel justified lifting up the Old Testament with greater authority than Jesus and the Apostles.

And if you are going to do that then you should just as well go with the Old Testament definitions of marriage which are also different than our current society's views on marriage.

If you want "Biblical" marriage you better decide which one. Do you mean Jacob's polygamy? Do you mean the system of arranged marriages? Do you mean that getting an engagement broken requires a divorce? Those are all Biblical practices of marriage.

Finally Sandy, you've never answered my question. Are you accusing me, an advocate of marriage equality, of being responsible for the conflict with North Korea. That is the logical conclusion of your pre-Christian (and also Pre-rabbinical) argument. Why are you too squeamish to blame me? Is it maybe because the whole idea is plain crazy?
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