Fred Luter's SBC bio page?

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Re: Fred Luter's SBC bio page?

Postby Tim Bonney » Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:02 pm

Sandy wrote:
You call it "exclusion," I call it following Biblical instruction for calling church leadership. You're always going to have problems and issues with how many of what kind get what when you ignore God's will and measure your progress by your own, human standards.


Wow, "ignore God's will" or ignore a buch of old white men's will? :roll:
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Re: Fred Luter's SBC bio page?

Postby Haruo » Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:32 am

Sandy, mind citing proof texts? Where is this "Biblical instruction for calling church leadership" in the Bible?
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Re: Fred Luter's SBC bio page?

Postby Blake » Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:59 am

Sandy wrote:You are using the term "ratio" of people of color to white people at, now down to three SBC seminaries out of the six because the other three don't fit your argument, and suggesting that a deliberate effort be made to hire people of color, or ethnic background, not because they are the best people for the job, but because doing so makes some sort of statement.

I'm using ratios to demonstrate a reality of inequality. No way in this universe are there not qualified people of color to fill positions at these seminaries. The seminaries are not putting in the effort to find qualified candidates from all walks of life and are not valuing the things that would lead them to find more candidates of color. There exist people of color eminently more qualified for some of these positions than many of the white people already in them. A lack of understanding of their culturally constructed biases is limiting their imaginations to find and hire them. The other three seminaries still do fit my argument (though needing more nuance), but aren't such egregious examples of white privilege gone amuck. Fuller is 25:90 and unlike SBC seminaries the PoC are actually spread around the departments fairly well. In all of the SBC seminaries the "headier" schools/departments (theology, history, philosophy, apologetics) are, if not exclusively white then have only one or two PoC on faculty.

Sandy wrote:The Assemblies of God Theological Seminary, in a denomination which you suggested was an ethnic and minority paradise, has one Asian faculty member among both its resident and visiting faculty.

I have no idea where you got the notion I thought that about that denomination. I know it's history and know it isn't an ethnic and minority paradise and, until now, didn't even know the name of its primary seminary.

You still haven't addressed why the SBC doesn't have or feels the need to have some kind of anti-racism task force like the Assemblies of God, American Baptist Churches USA, Evangelical Covenant Church, Mennonite Church USA, Christian Reformed Church, United Methodist Church, and so many more.
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Re: Fred Luter's SBC bio page?

Postby William Thornton » Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:37 am

Why not let's make a note here that all the ex-SBCers here believe that the SBC should have quotas, special committees, and other nice things.

When the CBF has a quota for female pastors, scarce as hen's teeth in that microdenomination, and implements it, I will recommend to the SBC entities that they have racial quotas to balance things out.
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Re: Fred Luter's SBC bio page?

Postby Ed Pettibone » Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:18 am

William Thornton wrote:Why not let's make a note here that all the ex-SBCers here believe that the SBC should have quotas, special committees, and other nice things.

When the CBF has a quota for female pastors, scarce as hen's teeth in that microdenomination, and implements it, I will recommend to the SBC entities that they have racial quotas to balance things out.


Ed: Again William you make a false assumption when you claim that "all ex-SBCcers here believe the SBC should have quotas, special committees, and other nice things." And you exaggerate with your claim that female pastors are "scarce as hen's teeth" in CBF. I am a former SBCer who does not favor "quotas" based on either race or gender, although I believe any qualified individual who makes them selves available should be considered.
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Re: Fred Luter's SBC bio page?

Postby KeithE » Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:44 am

Ed Pettibone wrote:
William Thornton wrote:Why not let's make a note here that all the ex-SBCers here believe that the SBC should have quotas, special committees, and other nice things.

When the CBF has a quota for female pastors, scarce as hen's teeth in that microdenomination, and implements it, I will recommend to the SBC entities that they have racial quotas to balance things out.


Ed: Again William you make a false assumption when you claim that "all ex-SBCcers here believe the SBC should have quotas, special committees, and other nice things." And you exaggerate with your claim that female pastors are "scarce as hen's teeth" in CBF. I am a former SBCer who does not favor "quotas" based on either race or gender, although I believe any qualified individual who makes them selves available should be considered.

There is a large diversity allowable in "ex-SBCers” at BL. Make a “note” about that William.
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Re: Fred Luter's SBC bio page?

Postby Sandy » Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:25 am

Apparently racial diversity on seminary faculties isn't a high priority for moderate Baptists, either. In some cases, like BTSR and Wake Forest, the faculties are so small, the African American on the staff raises the total percentage, but it seems like they have just as much of a preference for older white men as the SBC schools do. How un-diverse it was of Bill Leonard, who is himself and old white man, to hire James Dunn or Frank Tupper, also old white men, instead of a person of color.

Nor does it appear CBF has, at the core of its values system, racial diversity when it comes to the coordinating council. There is certainly a long-sustained and deliberate effort at choosing laypeople, mandated by bylaw quotas by the way, and to make sure that a high percentage of the council is female, but it doesn't appear there is a concerted effort to have people of color represented in anywhere near the percentages they can be found in the churches, or in the culture at large. What's there certainly doesn't look like a deliberate effort, as Blake suggests. And it still seems that the preference is for older, white men. Interesting, too, is the fact that one of the older white men on the coordinating council happens to be married to the newly nominated executive coordinator, and is a close friend of the old white man who chaired the search committee.

Do you mean to tell me that CBF is choosing (*gasp*) someone they think is the best person for the job rather than make a statement about who they are by picking a person of color?
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Re: Fred Luter's SBC bio page?

Postby Blake » Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:36 pm

Boomers picking boomers. Imagine that. :roll:
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Re: Fred Luter's SBC bio page?

Postby Dave Roberts » Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:40 pm

Sandy wrote:Apparently racial diversity on seminary faculties isn't a high priority for moderate Baptists, either. In some cases, like BTSR and Wake Forest, the faculties are so small, the African American on the staff raises the total percentage, but it seems like they have just as much of a preference for older white men as the SBC schools do. How un-diverse it was of Bill Leonard, who is himself and old white man, to hire James Dunn or Frank Tupper, also old white men, instead of a person of color.

Nor does it appear CBF has, at the core of its values system, racial diversity when it comes to the coordinating council. There is certainly a long-sustained and deliberate effort at choosing laypeople, mandated by bylaw quotas by the way, and to make sure that a high percentage of the council is female, but it doesn't appear there is a concerted effort to have people of color represented in anywhere near the percentages they can be found in the churches, or in the culture at large. What's there certainly doesn't look like a deliberate effort, as Blake suggests. And it still seems that the preference is for older, white men. Interesting, too, is the fact that one of the older white men on the coordinating council happens to be married to the newly nominated executive coordinator, and is a close friend of the old white man who chaired the search committee.

Do you mean to tell me that CBF is choosing (*gasp*) someone they think is the best person for the job rather than make a statement about who they are by picking a person of color?


I've noticed, Sandy, that anytime you don't have a defense, you always attack someone else's weaknesses to shift the focus.
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Re: Fred Luter's SBC bio page?

Postby Tom Parker » Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:29 pm

Sandy:

I will be more blunt that Dave Roberts just was with you. IMO you love to argue just for the sake of arguing!! Your arguments are weak or nonexistent but you are always looking to gig the CBF and write fantasy revisionist junk in a favorable way about the current SBC and anything related to the SBC since 1979--aka as taking the SBC over by the FUNDAMENTALIST.

Why not use facts, Sandy?
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Re: Fred Luter's SBC bio page?

Postby Ed Pettibone » Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:21 pm

Blake wrote:Boomers picking boomers. Imagine that. :roll:



Ed: Really Blake, Jame Dunn like my self is more a Depression Baby than a Boomer. :) But I am curious why Sandy points to only "three old men" out of the 18 Wake Divinity School faculty members. Phyllis Trible, one of the five women so employed is no spring chicken. :wink: She began her teaching career at Wake in the Religion department in 1963 long before they separated from the SBC. She has also taught 8 years at Andover-Newton in MA(ABC related), before moving to Union Theological Seminary in New York for 28 years, before retuning to Wake Divinity. She is also a past president of the Society of Biblical Literature, the leading professional organization for Biblical scholars, world wide. She, Leonard, Dunn and Tupper are the only ones at wake with whom I am acquainted but on their website, there are some who appear to be considerably younger, including two blacks and an oriental. BTW Leonard and Tupper where not so old when they went to Wake to teach.

See: http://divinity.wfu.edu/faculty/faculty-listings/
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Re: Fred Luter's SBC bio page?

Postby Tim Bonney » Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:43 pm

William Thornton wrote:Why not let's make a note here that all the ex-SBCers here believe that the SBC should have quotas, special committees, and other nice things.

When the CBF has a quota for female pastors, scarce as hen's teeth in that microdenomination, and implements it, I will recommend to the SBC entities that they have racial quotas to balance things out.


William, who has said anything about "quotas?" I suppose the English could have yelled, "no quotas!" when the Americans demanded "no taxation without representation."
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Re: Fred Luter's SBC bio page?

Postby Sandy » Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:47 pm

Dave Roberts wrote:
Sandy wrote:Apparently racial diversity on seminary faculties isn't a high priority for moderate Baptists, either. In some cases, like BTSR and Wake Forest, the faculties are so small, the African American on the staff raises the total percentage, but it seems like they have just as much of a preference for older white men as the SBC schools do. How un-diverse it was of Bill Leonard, who is himself and old white man, to hire James Dunn or Frank Tupper, also old white men, instead of a person of color.

Nor does it appear CBF has, at the core of its values system, racial diversity when it comes to the coordinating council. There is certainly a long-sustained and deliberate effort at choosing laypeople, mandated by bylaw quotas by the way, and to make sure that a high percentage of the council is female, but it doesn't appear there is a concerted effort to have people of color represented in anywhere near the percentages they can be found in the churches, or in the culture at large. What's there certainly doesn't look like a deliberate effort, as Blake suggests. And it still seems that the preference is for older, white men. Interesting, too, is the fact that one of the older white men on the coordinating council happens to be married to the newly nominated executive coordinator, and is a close friend of the old white man who chaired the search committee.

Do you mean to tell me that CBF is choosing (*gasp*) someone they think is the best person for the job rather than make a statement about who they are by picking a person of color?


I've noticed, Sandy, that anytime you don't have a defense, you always attack someone else's weaknesses to shift the focus.


I'm simply pointing out the hypocrisy of criticizing the SBC, which is obviously moving forward on issues related to racial diversity, by those who claim to have a perspective and have arrived at a place they consider to be superior.
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Re: Fred Luter's SBC bio page?

Postby Sandy » Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:48 pm

Tom Parker wrote:Sandy:

I will be more blunt that Dave Roberts just was with you. IMO you love to argue just for the sake of arguing!! Your arguments are weak or nonexistent but you are always looking to gig the CBF and write fantasy revisionist junk in a favorable way about the current SBC and anything related to the SBC since 1979--aka as taking the SBC over by the FUNDAMENTALIST.

Why not use facts, Sandy?


Still aren't over 1979 yet, huh?
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Re: Fred Luter's SBC bio page?

Postby Tim Bonney » Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:02 pm

Sandy wrote:I'm simply pointing out the hypocrisy of criticizing the SBC, which is obviously moving forward on issues related to racial diversity, by those who claim to have a perspective and have arrived at a place they consider to be superior.


Sandy much of the heat you've gotten hasn't been because of others thinking their situation is superior, it has been because you've painted a picture which makes the SBC look like the next NAACP. Yes, you've pointed to some progress. But it just isn't incredible. The SBC finally elected an African-American. That's a good thing. But it is a long way from integration of the denomination as shown by the lack of ethnic leadership at the top.

If you stopped painting the SBC as the greatest thing since sliced bread people might go a little easier on you. NO denomination is as good as the way you talk about the SBC.
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Re: Fred Luter's SBC bio page?

Postby Tom Parker » Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:42 pm

Tim:

In the big scheme of things the election of Fred Luter as President of the SBC IMO is a very small step forward for an almost all white leadership of the SBC. But for Sandy the SBC on its own took this great and bold step! Just aint so as hard as he loves to spin it.

BTW, Sandy if it were not so sad as to what happened to the SBC-- I would find your fictionalization of past events humorous. It would be an amazing talent.
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Re: Fred Luter's SBC bio page?

Postby Ed Pettibone » Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:11 pm

Tim Bonney wrote:
Sandy wrote:I'm simply pointing out the hypocrisy of criticizing the SBC, which is obviously moving forward on issues related to racial diversity, by those who claim to have a perspective and have arrived at a place they consider to be superior.


Sandy much of the heat you've gotten hasn't been because of others thinking their situation is superior, it has been because you've painted a picture which makes the SBC look like the next NAACP. Yes, you've pointed to some progress. But it just isn't incredible. The SBC finally elected an African-American. That's a good thing. But it is a long way from integration of the denomination as shown by the lack of ethnic leadership at the top.

If you stopped painting the SBC as the greatest thing since sliced bread people might go a little easier on you. NO denomination is as good as the way you talk about the SBC.


Ed: And Gee, I am hearing some talk about a Black Pope. And Tim in that thtrd line didn't you mean "But it just isn't credible"? I will be honest part of the ABC-USA attraction to black Pastors is the M&M retirement plan and the SBC plan is also an attraction for them to move that way. Another of many reasons for the "progress" is that the black population in the south is increasing as blacks who have grown up in a more integrated society head that direction.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/25/us/25 ... wanted=all
The share of black population growth that has occurred in the South over the past decade — the highest since 1910, before the Great Migration of blacks to the North — has upended some long-held assumptions.

Both Michigan and Illinois, whose cities have rich black cultural traditions, showed an overall loss of blacks for the first time, said William Frey, the chief demographer at the Brookings Institution.

And Atlanta, for the first time, has replaced Chicago as the metro area with the largest number of African-Americans after New York. About 17 percent of blacks who moved to the South in the past decade left New York State, far more than from any other state, the census data show.

Increasingly blacks are moving to places with small black populations. Just 2 percent of the black population growth in the last decade occurred in counties that have traditionally been black population centers, while 20 percent has occurred in counties where only a tiny fraction of the population had been black.


So yes, I imagine some are are saying, "Hey that Big honky Church out there on the H'way looks nice and they got plenty of parking, lets give it a try. And they enjoy the entertainment as much as the next guy.
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Re: Fred Luter's SBC bio page?

Postby Tim Bonney » Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:59 am

Sandy wrote:Still aren't over 1979 yet, huh?


Sandy,

Being over the takeover doesn't mean that we forget what happened. Time doesn't change history, truth, or what happened to so many of our friends who got in the way of the takeover machine.

Now if the takeover folks were as honest as Jerry Falwell was in admitting that they "took the thing over" then at least you'd have a historical basis on which to build your case for why they took over the denomination. But as long as you are writing this "CR Savior of the World" fantasy novel the rest of us are just going to scoff.
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Re: Fred Luter's SBC bio page?

Postby Ed Pettibone » Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:31 am

Sandy wrote:
Tom Parker wrote:Sandy:

I will be more blunt that Dave Roberts just was with you. IMO you love to argue just for the sake of arguing!! Your arguments are weak or nonexistent but you are always looking to gig the CBF and write fantasy revisionist junk in a favorable way about the current SBC and anything related to the SBC since 1979--aka as taking the SBC over by the FUNDAMENTALIST.

Why not use facts, Sandy?


Still aren't over 1979 yet, huh?


Ed: Again Sandy 1979, was only the initial public announcement of the fundamentalist plans.

Here is a good (maybe not perfect, but good) time line of the takeover: http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism ... ology.html

Note: This timeline runs from 1967 through 2002.
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Gonna be interesting to see how Bama SBC

Postby Stephen Fox » Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:29 pm

explains to Luter some recent tea party activity in the state that may provoke the SCLC
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