Fred Luter's SBC bio page?

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Fred Luter's SBC bio page?

Postby Blake » Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:15 am

Can anyone find it? How long has he been president? A google search still has Bryan Wright as current president and Frank Page's from 2006 can still be found. How long does it usually take them to figure this out? Also, I noticed a recent episode of The Daily Show with John Stewart quoted Frank Page on something about homosexuals in the Boy Scouts and they (not sure if it was The Daily Show or whoever they got the tape from) listed Page as the current president of the SBC.
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Re: Fred Luter's SBC bio page?

Postby William Thornton » Sun Feb 03, 2013 7:40 am

Looks like the SBC Executive Committee does not maintain an "SBC President's Page" any longer. I don't know why. Perhaps they are trusting Wikipedia to handle that stuff.
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Re: Fred Luter's SBC bio page?

Postby Haruo » Sun Feb 03, 2013 10:49 am

William Thornton wrote:Looks like the SBC Executive Committee does not maintain an "SBC President's Page" any longer. I don't know why. Perhaps they are trusting Wikipedia to handle that stuff.

Both such use of and such trust in Wikipedia would be inappropriate, mispaced...
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Re: Fred Luter's SBC bio page?

Postby Ed Pettibone » Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:19 am

Haruo wrote:
William Thornton wrote:Looks like the SBC Executive Committee does not maintain an "SBC President's Page" any longer. I don't know why. Perhaps they are trusting Wikipedia to handle that stuff.

Both such use of and such trust in Wikipedia would be inappropriate, mispaced...


Ed: Would that be new for the SBC Executive Committee? TIC

But Blake, if you just want info on Luter try searching [ Fred Luter, Southern Baptist Convention President ] there is quite a bit.
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Re: Fred Luter's SBC bio page?

Postby Haruo » Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:56 am

Ed Pettibone wrote:
Haruo wrote:Both such use of and such trust in Wikipedia would be inappropriate, misplaced...


Ed: Would that be new for the SBC Executive Committee? TIC

Point well taken, Ed. ;-)

Surely they wouldn't turn over all of their publicity department to dynamic editing by a bunch of, largely, liberals and agnostics with a few objectivists and Catholics thrown in...
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Re: Fred Luter's SBC bio page?

Postby Ed Pettibone » Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:32 pm

Haruo wrote:
Ed Pettibone wrote:
Haruo wrote:Both such use of and such trust in Wikipedia would be inappropriate, misplaced...


Ed: Would that be new for the SBC Executive Committee? TIC

Point well taken, Ed. ;-)

Surely they wouldn't turn over all of their publicity department to dynamic editing by a bunch of, largely, liberals and agnostics with a few objectivists and Catholics thrown in...


Ed: No, their Publicity Department is is still Baptist Press. And they still milk Luter's color for all it is worth.
* please do not take the previous comment as any sort of judgement on my part of Fred Luter. I have never heard the man nor have I read any thing from him, other than quotes purported to be from him.

But Haruo, why do you presume that only your closest friends and yourself are Wikipedia contributors? :wink:
Honestly, I see some comments on religion and faith groups that looks pretty conservative to me. But I am quick to admit that often such terms are in the eye of the beholder.

I do however share you caution about the reliability of Wikipedia.
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Re: Fred Luter's SBC bio page?

Postby Sandy » Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:53 pm

Ed Pettibone wrote:Ed: No, their Publicity Department is is still Baptist Press. And they still milk Luter's color for all it is worth.


Would you provide a specific example of this, please?
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Re: Fred Luter's SBC bio page?

Postby Ed Pettibone » Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:28 pm

    Sandy wrote:
    Ed Pettibone wrote:Ed: No, their Publicity Department is is still Baptist Press. And they still milk Luter's color for all it is worth.


    Would you provide a specific example of this, please?


    Ed: Lets start with http://m.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=39572 Note the date; Posted on Jan 23, 2013 | by Diana Chandler

    From the item
    Byrd {the College President} recognized Luter's achievements not only as the first African American elected as president of the SBC but also as pastor of Franklin Avenue Baptist Church in New Orleans, having grown the congregation from 50 members to more than 8,500 over 25 years and sparking the church's restoration after Hurricane Katrina flooded the facility and scattered the membership over several states.
    &
    Former medal recipients include Johnnetta B. Cole, the first African American woman president of Spelman College, the first African American national chairman of United Way's board of directors and the current director of the Smithsonian Institution's National Museum of African Art; Simon Estes, an internationally renowned bass-baritone who in 1978 was the first African American to sing at the Bayreuth Festival in Bayreuth, Germany; and Iowa members of the prestigious Tuskegee Airmen, the first African American combat pilots in the U.S. Army Air Corps.
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    Re: Fred Luter's SBC bio page?

    Postby Sandy » Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:49 am

    Looks to me like the author is simply stating what is a very related fact about Fred Luter. He is the first African American President of the SBC, that is a fact, and it happens to be intricately relevant to this particular piece, which is about recognizing African Americans who were first to do something. You'll have to do much better than that to support your claim.
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    Re: Fred Luter's SBC bio page?

    Postby Ed Pettibone » Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:29 am

    Sandy wrote:Looks to me like the author is simply stating what is a very related fact about Fred Luter. He is the first African American President of the SBC, that is a fact, and it happens to be intricately relevant to this particular piece, which is about recognizing African Americans who were first to do something. You'll have to do much better than that to support your claim.


    Ed: You asked for an example of BP still milking Fred Luter's color for all that it is worth and I gave you one. BP titled article Luter given Carver Medal for faithful ministry . http://m.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=39572 dated Jan. 23, 2013
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    Re: Fred Luter's SBC bio page?

    Postby Haruo » Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:16 am

    I'm inclined to agree with Sandy here. To "milk something for all it is worth" is not synonymous with to "mention something when it is relevant and pertinent".
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    Re: Fred Luter's SBC bio page?

    Postby Sandy » Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:11 pm

    First of all, the Carver medal wasn't awarded by the SBC, it was awarded by Simpson College, a United Methodist-related school in Iowa. It is a medal given in honor of George Washington Carver, who was, among his many accomplishments, the first African American to do a lot of things. One of the considerations for which Luter received the award was being the first African American president of the SBC, an accomplishment that I would consider worthy of the award, and completely relevant to it. He is the President of the SBC, and so a recognition as prestigious and as honorable as this one would certainly draw the attention of Baptist Press, among other news media outlets. If that's "milking his status for all its worth", then the United Methodists and Simpson College are collaborators with the SBC in doing it.

    It really seems to bend some non-Southern Baptists out of shape pretty badly that the SBC is making strides in the area of equality and diversity that they once thought was their own personal domain.
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    Re: Fred Luter's SBC bio page?

    Postby William Thornton » Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:09 pm

    Ed, care to guess what proportion of SBC churches describe themselves as ethnic or minority?

    Care to volunteer what that proportion is for ABC or CBF?
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    Re: Fred Luter's SBC bio page?

    Postby Tim Bonney » Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:41 pm

    Sandy wrote:

    It really seems to bend some non-Southern Baptists out of shape pretty badly that the SBC is making strides in the area of equality and diversity that they once thought was their own personal domain.


    No, only that it took so long Sandy. Only that it took so long.
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    Re: Fred Luter's SBC bio page?

    Postby Tim Bonney » Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:43 pm

    William Thornton wrote:Ed, care to guess what proportion of SBC churches describe themselves as ethnic or minority?

    Care to volunteer what that proportion is for ABC or CBF?


    CBF, not all that many I think. ABC over 40% last I knew. That is one area where no one is catching up with the ABC is ethnic diversity.
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    Re: Fred Luter's SBC bio page?

    Postby Sandy » Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:10 pm

    No, Timothy, the issue isn't how long it took. The SBC was organized in 1845, and it took fewer years total for it to go from organization to integration, and now to an African American leader than it did most other American mainline denominations, which only began integrating in the 1950's. The issue is that it is getting harder and harder for CBF and other moderate Baptists to demonize the SBC. Southern Baptists are investing resources into church planting, putting Latinos and African Americans in charge of those efforts in the large cities, and are having a lot of success at reaching people while other Baptists are having "dialogue".
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    Re: Fred Luter's SBC bio page?

    Postby Tim Bonney » Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:43 pm

    Sandy wrote:No, Timothy, the issue isn't how long it took. The SBC was organized in 1845, and it took fewer years total for it to go from organization to integration, and now to an African American leader than it did most other American mainline denominations, which only began integrating in the 1950's.


    Huh? The SBC was organized in May of 1845 to support regionalism and slave ownership. Come on, you can't spout that date and ignore the reason for the founding of the denomination. It didn't spring up out of the earth, it was a split from the Triennial Convention with the final break being over slavery and you know it.

    Also the issue I brought up wasn't "integration" but top leadership. it is about how long it took the SBC to elect a black man to be its President. And I'll wager it would be a lot more years before the SBC elects a woman President if ever, much less a woman of color. I probably won't live that long. There will probably be a woman Pope first.

    I'm not criticizing effort of the SBC to plant ethnic churches. But where are those ethnic folks in the leadership of the SBC? The CBF doesn't have to "demonize" the SBC. The SBC does a pretty darn good job of doing it to itself. The CBF can just stand back most of the time and say, "I told you so."
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    Re: Fred Luter's SBC bio page?

    Postby Ed Pettibone » Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:05 am

    Tim Bonney wrote:
    William Thornton wrote:Ed, care to guess what proportion of SBC churches describe themselves as ethnic or minority?

    Care to volunteer what that proportion is for ABC or CBF?


    CBF, not all that many I think. ABC over 40% last I knew. That is one area where no one is catching up with the ABC is ethnic diversity.


    Ed: Tim thanks for the assist but am not sure about the accuracy of you reply, if William chooses to parse his question closely. He asked about churches that describe them selves as ethnic or minority. Yes most of the Churches the ABC of the South Region would qualify. But here in the ABCNYS it would be no where near 40%. For example This Association (CABA AKA Capital Area Baptist Association) has 27 churches and only 4 of those are identified as ethnic or minority although several do have minority group members. The Adirondack Association has no Minority churches but the do have churches with minority members. There are only three or four other associations in ABCNYS that may have as many as 4 churches that are predominately minority.

    I will ask William, How many SBC Predominately white churches have a minority group pastor. In ABC-NYS alone, I personally know three blacks and and one Puerto Rican who serve predominately white churches, out of our 239 churches,

    I also want to thank your for correcting Sandy on the historical fact of time from founding to Inclusion. In addition, you could have mentioned that Northern Baptist (now ABC-USA) was not founded until 1907

    And BTW William seems to forget CBF''s former, Black National Moderator, 2007, The Rev.,Dr. Emmanuel McCall

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    Re: Fred Luter's SBC bio page?

    Postby Haruo » Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:33 am

    Ed Pettibone wrote:I will ask William, How many SBC Predominately white churches have a minority group pastor. In ABC-NYS alone, I personally know three blacks and and one Puerto Rican who serve predominately white churches, out of our 239 churches,

    I also want to thank your for correcting Sandy on the historical fact of time from founding to Inclusion. In addition, you could have mentioned that Northern Baptist (now ABC-USA) was not founded until 1907

    Yes, within Evergreen there have been a number of pastors serving churches of a different caucus alignment from their own race or ethnicity. In addition to Black and Hispanic pastors of predominantly Euro churches, Japanese Baptist had for several years a Black youth pastor.

    And these pastors were called by the churches concerned of their own free will, not imposed on them by an external episcopate.
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    Re: Fred Luter's SBC bio page?

    Postby Sandy » Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:05 am

    Tim Bonney wrote:
    Sandy wrote:No, Timothy, the issue isn't how long it took. The SBC was organized in 1845, and it took fewer years total for it to go from organization to integration, and now to an African American leader than it did most other American mainline denominations, which only began integrating in the 1950's.


    Huh? The SBC was organized in May of 1845 to support regionalism and slave ownership. Come on, you can't spout that date and ignore the reason for the founding of the denomination. It didn't spring up out of the earth, it was a split from the Triennial Convention with the final break being over slavery and you know it.

    Also the issue I brought up wasn't "integration" but top leadership. it is about how long it took the SBC to elect a black man to be its President. And I'll wager it would be a lot more years before the SBC elects a woman President if ever, much less a woman of color. I probably won't live that long. There will probably be a woman Pope first.

    I'm not criticizing effort of the SBC to plant ethnic churches. But where are those ethnic folks in the leadership of the SBC? The CBF doesn't have to "demonize" the SBC. The SBC does a pretty darn good job of doing it to itself. The CBF can just stand back most of the time and say, "I told you so."


    I didn't say the SBC wasn't organized to support slave ownership. I interpreted your comment, "Only that it took so long," to be a reference to how long it took for the SBC, over the course of its history, to get to the point of electing an African American to "top leadership." The answer is 167 years. It took 167 years for the SBC to finally elect an African American to top leadership, though it only took about 150 years to elect a Native American and an Asian to a "top leadership" position, if you determine that the other two offices of the SBC constitute "top leadership." How long did it take the Methodists to go from Asbury and Coke to an African American in a "top leadership" position of the equivalent of the SBC President? I'm not as familiar with the history of Methodist segregation, and the way the African American churches related to the various levels of Methodism prior to the union in 1968, but I believe the answer is somewhere in the neighborhood of 182 years. Virtually every major denomination in the country has a segregationist history, and most organized African American denominations are the result of it.

    Ed Pettibone wrote:I will ask William, How many SBC Predominately white churches have a minority group pastor.


    I'm not even sure the SBC keeps track of that information. I can name a dozen, off the top of my head, including several larger congregations. The closest SBC church to my house is pastored by an African American, and its an ethnically mixed congregation of whites, African Americans, Latinos--mostly Puerto Rican, Asians and a few Eastern Europeans. One of the two churches in the neighboring county is pastored by an African American, and it also is an ethnically mixed congregation. In Texas, in 2008, a large church billing itself as a community church relocated to within a mile of our old house, building a large facility. As it turned out, it was predominantly African American, about 60%, with the rest being white and Latino, and its pastor is currently a state convention officer. A friend of mine, Eric Redmond, was pastor of a church in the DC suburbs that was almost completely white for several years, and there's one in Rockville, MD, Montrose, that's pretty good sized, predominantly white, with an African American pastor. So I think that is probably a lot more common than you think.

    I think it is also worthy to note that, since the conservative resurgence in 1979, the number of African Americans, Latinos, and member of other ethnic minorities, along with the number of women, serving on trustee boards, committees and convention boards has grown exponentially.
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    Re: Fred Luter's SBC bio page?

    Postby Tim Bonney » Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:39 am

    Sandy wrote:I didn't say the SBC wasn't organized to support slave ownership. I interpreted your comment, "Only that it took so long," to be a reference to how long it took for the SBC, over the course of its history, to get to the point of electing an African American to "top leadership." The answer is 167 years. It took 167 years for the SBC to finally elect an African American to top leadership, though it only took about 150 years to elect a Native American and an Asian to a "top leadership" position, if you determine that the other two offices of the SBC constitute "top leadership." How long did it take the Methodists to go from Asbury and Coke to an African American in a "top leadership" position of the equivalent of the SBC President? I'm not as familiar with the history of Methodist segregation, and the way the African American churches related to the various levels of Methodism prior to the union in 1968, but I believe the answer is somewhere in the neighborhood of 182 years. Virtually every major denomination in the country has a segregationist history, and most organized African American denominations are the result of it.



    That is an odd way to look at it Sandy. However young or old the SBC is as a denomination the civil rights movement occurred at the same time in history for all of us. But groups like the SBC have taken longer after that fight for equality to elect persons of color to leadership. That's the problem. Why has it taken more than 50 years since the civil rights movement?

    The first black Bishops in the Methodist Episcopal Church were elected to that office in 1920. The Methodist Episcopal Church was founded in 1784 so by my math that is 136 years for the first black Bishop. So I think your math is off somewhere.

    As to an equivalent office, we don't have anything like a President of the denomination. The Council of Bishops as a whole are the executive leadership of the denomination. The Council has men, women, African-Americans, Asian Americans, and as far as that goes Africans, Europeans, etc. holding the office of Bishop. But they are just one branch of a three branch system of governance. So there is no single head or even single organization in charge of everything in the UMC.

    (Edit: - And Helen Barrett Montgomery was the first women President of the Northern Baptist Convention in 1921)
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    Re: Fred Luter's SBC bio page?

    Postby Sandy » Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:19 pm

    Timothy Bonney wrote:The first black Bishops in the Methodist Episcopal Church were elected to that office in 1920.


    Yes, but it is my understanding that they were not given authority over white bishops, and were limited to service in the segregated, African American portion of the denomination. The first African American to have full authority didn't occur until the 60's. But then, the SBC is made up of independent, autonomous congregations and it is difficult to draw equivalent comparisons between "bishops" in the Methodist church, and "top leadership" in the SBC, since the President of the Southern Baptist Convention is just that, the presiding officer of the convention with no ecclesiastical authority. He presides over the two day convention meeting, the executive board, and appoints one committee. And Luter isn't the first minority to be elected to one of the SBC's "top leadership posts." They elected a Native American back in the 90's as one of the VP's, as well as an Asian around the same time.

    The irony of the whole conversation here is that it has been under conservative leadership that the SBC has become racially and culturally diverse. Under moderate leadership, there was a lot of talk, but not much in the way of action. But since 1979, the number of people of minority races, and women, on the trustee boards, committees and the executive board of the SBC has increased exponentially. A lot of that has to do with the maturing of the church planting effort that began in the early 1980's. But in the South, a lot of large, established African American churches are affiliating with the SBC through state conventions. Some of them are remaining dually affiliated with the National Baptist Convention, but many of them are uniquely aligning with the SBC and giving the lion's share of their missions offering to the Cooperative Program.

    We're trumpeting how progressive the ABC USA is, and the Methodists, but Ed is complaining that the SBC is "milking" the election of Fred Luter for all it is worth.
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    Re: Fred Luter's SBC bio page?

    Postby Tim Bonney » Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:35 pm

    Sandy wrote:
    Yes, but it is my understanding that they were not given authority over white bishops, and were limited to service in the segregated, African American portion of the denomination.


    Your Methodist history and polity are a little confused Sandy. That's ok, Methodists have confusing polity. From 1939-1968 there was a separate jurisdiction for African American Methodist churches in the Methodist Church (founded in 1939 with the merger of the MEC the MEC South, and the Methodist Protestant Church.) Black Bishops presided over that Jurisdiction. This arrangement was insisted upon by the MEC, South and lasted until the formation of the UMC in 1968.

    However, I don't know what you mean by authority over white Bishops. NO Bishop has authority over ANY other Bishop. The Bishops are all co-equal. There isn't a head Bishop. We don't have Archbishops in Methodism. Occasionally a someone tries to get General Conference to create a head Bishop position and it has always been voted down. A Bishop presides over an Episcopal Area (one or more annual conferences) and not over the whole church.

    After 1968 this practice of a separate jurisdiction ended and "open itineracy" was adopted. Now there is no distinction made in assignment of Bishops or pastors based on race, ethnic origin, or gender.

    So in summary, we've had black Bishops since 1920 (93 years) and no discrimination in assignment by race or gender for 45 years.
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    Re: Fred Luter's SBC bio page?

    Postby Sandy » Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:32 pm

    Tim Bonney wrote:
    Sandy wrote:
    Yes, but it is my understanding that they were not given authority over white bishops, and were limited to service in the segregated, African American portion of the denomination.


    Your Methodist history and polity are a little confused Sandy. That's ok, Methodists have confusing polity. From 1939-1968 there was a separate jurisdiction for African American Methodist churches in the Methodist Church (founded in 1939 with the merger of the MEC the MEC South, and the Methodist Protestant Church.) Black Bishops presided over that Jurisdiction. This arrangement was insisted upon by the MEC, South and lasted until the formation of the UMC in 1968.

    However, I don't know what you mean by authority over white Bishops. NO Bishop has authority over ANY other Bishop. The Bishops are all co-equal. There isn't a head Bishop. We don't have Archbishops in Methodism. Occasionally a someone tries to get General Conference to create a head Bishop position and it has always been voted down. A Bishop presides over an Episcopal Area (one or more annual conferences) and not over the whole church.

    After 1968 this practice of a separate jurisdiction ended and "open itineracy" was adopted. Now there is no distinction made in assignment of Bishops or pastors based on race, ethnic origin, or gender.

    So in summary, we've had black Bishops since 1920 (93 years) and no discrimination in assignment by race or gender for 45 years.


    So African Americans did not have the same status, over an integrated Episcopal area in the Methodist church until 1968, or about 184 years from the initial organization of the Methodist church by Asbury and Coke. The SBC moved from sending slaveowners as missionaries to an African American president in 167 years. So the SBC is not as hard headed when it comes to racial equality and ethnic diversity as some people think it is. Given the progress that has been made in that area over the past thirty years, what has been said about conservatives and racial equality is turning out not to be true. I don't think very many of the SBC's critics are aware, first of all of how many African American churches, including a number of them from predominantly African American denominations, have joined the SBC during the time that conservatives have controlled the denomination. Nor is there a realization of just how many fully integrated churches there are, and how many African Americans, Hispanics, Asians and other minorities are members of SBC churches.
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    Re: Fred Luter's SBC bio page?

    Postby Tim Bonney » Wed Feb 06, 2013 9:43 pm

    Sigh, Sandy you are playing fast and loose here with numbers. Why are you counting 167 years for the SBC leaving out the years Baptists were in one group together in the Triennial Convention? Or do you believe those folks weren't Baptists before the SBC? But you are counting together all the denominational predecessors of the UMC into one 184 year old history from Coke and Asbury?? That is some strange math there and doesn't prove anything except that you seem to believe the SBC should get some kind of strange bonus points towards speed of integration for breaking away from the rest of Baptists in 1845 to support slavery. Go figure.

    How many African-American denominational executives are there in the SBC? How many women denominational executives? How many Asian denominational execs?

    Here is a link to the photos of twelve pages of UMC Bishops. You can note a lot of persons of color and a lot of women. And the SBC has managed to elect one African-American President. Congratulations, it is a good thing. But don't expect people to act like you've done something earth shattering or ground breaking.

    http://www.umc.org/c.lwL4KnN1LtH/b.2227 ... &b=2227449
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