Do we have any SBCers other than our GA friend

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Do we have any SBCers other than our GA friend

Postby Ed Pettibone » Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:17 pm

It seem this forum would be pretty near dead where it not for S. Fox.
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Re: Do we have any SBCers other than our GA friend

Postby William Thornton » Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:02 pm

For the last few years, my attention has been mostly on my blog for SBC stuff. Let's face it, SBC stuff is of interest here but mainly from ex-SBCers like yo'self.

I would be happy to let someone else do stuff here. I just can't manage both.
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Re: Do we have any SBCers other than our GA friend

Postby Tim Bonney » Sun Jan 20, 2013 11:31 pm

Ed Pettibone wrote:It seem this forum would be pretty near dead where it not for S. Fox.


Ed this forum has been primarily for ex-SBCers for years. I'm surprised that you just noticed. It is one of the reasons I still feel comfortable around here. I'm still and ex-SBCer with most of the rest of you (though I'm also now an ex-Baptist.)
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Re: Do we have any SBCers other than our GA friend

Postby Dave Roberts » Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:01 pm

Actually, I don't think the problem has been with the forum or its moderator. There simply hasn't been a lot of real news lately out of the SBC. Since the SBC last summer, it has been very quiet.
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Not welcoming and affirming

Postby Stephen Fox » Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:00 pm

Over the years some of my SBC friends have complained that one active member of this site was quite annoying and it just wasn't worth the bother. At same time folks like David Miller and other outspoken SBC folks would rather preach to the choir than have their opinions challenged.

Giberson and Stephens in The Anointed pretty much nailed the coffin for literate or enlightened folks to take the SBC seriously. And what they didn't defeat, Rachel Held Evans and others like her have.

That I guess is why our Friend Thornton is such a rare bird and we should be gratefull he still chats with us.

I walk on eggshells here occasionally as well, and I doubt he would engage the offer, but I'm for amnesty for the fellow who was active here a few years ago. Though his views like Al Mohler are pretty much on the dungheap of history, he was quite articulate and passionate with his fundamentalism.
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Re: Do we have any SBCers other than our GA friend

Postby Ed Pettibone » Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:46 pm

Ed Pettibone: It seem this forum would be pretty near dead where it not for S. Fox.

Tim writes
Ed this forum has been primarily for ex-SBCers for years. I'm surprised that you just noticed. It is one of the reasons I still feel comfortable around here. I'm still and ex-SBCer with most of the rest of you (though I'm also now an ex-Baptist.)


Ed: Tim, what is it that you think I have just noticed? And where do you get the idea that this board is or ever was "primarily for ex-SBCers"? It is and has always been "for anyone" with some interest in the SBC. If it where primarily for Ex SBCers it would not make sense for William to be the moderator. As it is he does a reasonable job. Being that he was a long time Southern Baptist Pastor it should surprise no one when he spouts SBC boiler plate rhetoric about the rest of us. But you are right it is not news that S. Fox is far and away the major contributor both in starting and contributing to this forum. And Steve is pretty knowable when it comes to SBC history, especially Alabama Baptist.

And Steve, although Thornton generally hangs his hat in a SBC vestibule he is not a fundamentalist.
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Re: Do we have any SBCers other than our GA friend

Postby rfuss » Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:44 pm

I think I may be able to give an answer as to why there are few SBCers on here. Most disagree with the positions presented on here and may not be welcome. Consider the following OP on here from the Baptist Faith and Message forum last year.

"The rather long threaded argument with "Abel" has caused me to ask the question, "Why do people do it?" Why go on a forum where people believe quite differently than you do and then spend time challenging what they believe rather than finding a forum that believes more like you do?

Now I'm a bit different than most folks here as a former Baptist. I know why I'm here. I'm here because I have friends here. But, I'm not going to be spending my time trying to argue you all out of being Baptists or into being United Methodists.

So what do you think the motivation is? I've never seen one of these individuals who come into the forum with guns blazing actually change anyone's minds. Most of them leave, either of their own accord or because they finally cross the line and say something insulting enough to finally push even our patient moderators to ban them.

What's the point? What do people get out of it?"

Also, I have also seen the conservative position on here described as being on the "dungheap".
With such attitudes presented, many SBCers could consider themselves not welcome.
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Re: Do we have any SBCers other than our GA friend

Postby Tim Bonney » Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:59 pm

Much of that is an extended quote from me rfuss. I'm not a Baptist or a moderator in this forum. So maybe I'm not the best example. I don't think Abel represents what SBCers are like. He represents the troll fringe and, if I remember right, he is the same character known as Mariner who is actually a right wing Roman Catholic who thinks non-catholics aren't good Christians. No, that isn't that welcome anywhere.
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Re: Do we have any SBCers other than our GA friend

Postby rfuss » Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:23 pm

Tim Bonney wrote:Much of that is an extended quote from me rfuss. I'm not a Baptist or a moderator in this forum. So maybe I'm not the best example. I don't think Abel represents what SBCers are like. He represents the troll fringe and, if I remember right, he is the same character known as Mariner who is actually a right wing Roman Catholic who thinks non-catholics aren't good Christians. No, that isn't that welcome anywhere.


You post applied to all people who disagreed with the prevailing positions on here. it did not apply just to Abel. It could be interpreted to say if you don't agree with us, go to another forum.

""Why do people do it?" Why go on a forum where people believe quite differently than you do and then spend time challenging what they believe rather than finding a forum that believes more like you do?"


I was simply answering the question about the low number of SBCers on here. I did not say it was intentional to discourage others from posting, but it could be taken that way since it appeared different opinions were not really welcome.

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Re: Do we have any SBCers other than our GA friend

Postby William Thornton » Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:40 pm

Part of the deal here rfuss is that most of the main posters know each other well and have sniped at one another for years, in old fashioned Christian love. Another part is that there have been a few trolls who pop up and foam at the mouth for a short time before they go away or are banned. Able was one like that.

There just aren't many SBCers here but there are lots of ex-SBCers, most of whom are my friends.
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Re: Do we have any SBCers other than our GA friend

Postby Haruo » Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:20 pm

William Thornton wrote:...sniped at one another for years, in old fashioned Christian love...

;-) wonderful turn of phrase!
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Re: Do we have any SBCers other than our GA friend

Postby Ed Pettibone » Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:19 pm

rfuss wrote:I think I may be able to give an answer as to why there are few SBCers on here. Most disagree with the positions presented on here and may not be welcome. Consider the following OP on here from the Baptist Faith and Message forum last year.

"The rather long threaded argument with "Abel" has caused me to ask the question, "Why do people do it?" Why go on a forum where people believe quite differently than you do and then spend time challenging what they believe rather than finding a forum that believes more like you do?

Now I'm a bit different than most folks here as a former Baptist. I know why I'm here. I'm here because I have friends here. But, I'm not going to be spending my time trying to argue you all out of being Baptists or into being United Methodists.

So what do you think the motivation is? I've never seen one of these individuals who come into the forum with guns blazing actually change anyone's minds. Most of them leave, either of their own accord or because they finally cross the line and say something insulting enough to finally push even our patient moderators to ban them.

What's the point? What do people get out of it?"

Also, I have also seen the conservative position on here described as being on the "dungheap".
With such attitudes presented, many SBCers could consider themselves not welcome.


Ed: Thanks for the reply rfuss but having been here since the start up of BL.C I do not believe that any one has been mistreated simply because he or she was/is Southern Baptist.

On the other hand I do believe some have come to these boards primarily to agitate those of us who opposed the fundamentalist take over of the SBC. Most especially the methodology of that takeover, even when we where still Southern baptist. As

I remained in the SBC for 7 years after many moderates had given up on it, understanding that any opportunity to exercise God's call on their life within the SBC had evaporated. I stayed because as a lay person I was free to select where I attended and served. And as I moved around, I found churches where moderates even CBF moderates where welcome. And in fact they had other members who supported CBF. I saw some churches take heat from other churches and sometimes from personnel of local Associations, State Conventions and SBC entities from Nashville, SS Board, to Richmond, Foreign Mission Board, Atlanta and the Home Mission Board. What the could not control they eventually closed down. Where try Memphis and the Brotherhood Commission to Fort Worth and the Radio and TV commission. At Birmingham they tried to hard wire the WMU Auxiliary to the convention when that failed they stated a competitive women's organization. And I saw individuals in those churches who had long records of service to the SBC become excluded from service Some of those churches are no longer SBC.

During that time I was active on the old SBCnet, using the handle " The Net Modrate". That is where I met some of the folk who later came to BL.C, after the SBC closed down that site. It was then that David Flick and Bruce Gourly decided to start this Site. I was invited to join them and BL.C was launched Ralph Storm a Regent at Baylor came on shortly latter. Not real long latter, his wife died and he just did not feel up to participating here. So it was just David and I for quite some time, Bruce was busy working on his Doctorate and taking care of the technical and business end.


Some help was added as the various forums came into being. Bruce as owner of the site decided to juggle the assignments. I was not interested in the position where he wanted me and I resigned from the "staff". But I continue to participate. Actually I have been every bit as visible on the boards since then as I had been before. And I refuse to sit back and watch while some one ABC, Independent Baptist, SBC or what ever continue to be critical of CBF and other moderates from misinformed biases.

I try to keep my rebuttals civil, but some seem to find civility as a weakness. I some times appreciate the information pertaining to the SBC in Fox's links but at other times he post stuff I want to discuss and refute but w/o SBCers that has become near to impossible. This is the crux of my heading for the thread.


Please see: http://www.baptistlife.com/forumpolicies.htm I am still persuaded ALL are welcome who will play by the rules and keep in mind that they are GUEST of the site owner and his staff. Note this line from rule 2 "Although pointed exchanges are to be expected, malicious attitudes towards other users will not be tolerated."

These rules have been in place from the start.
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Re: Do we have any SBCers other than our GA friend

Postby Sandy » Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:18 am

Is Stephen still a member of an SBC church? Most of what he posts here is intended to attract someone's attention who may be reading about a particular issue, and discovers the thread via google or some other search engine.

Technically, I am still a member of a Southern Baptist Church. In the CMA, membership is all done by statement, so there's no "transfer" when you move from one church to another, even within the denomination. Without formal notification, I'm sure I'm still on the roll at the last SBC church where I was a member. I guess that makes me one of those notorious "Non-resident" members.
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Re: Do we have any SBCers other than our GA friend

Postby Tim Bonney » Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:21 am

rfuss wrote:You post applied to all people who disagreed with the prevailing positions on here. it did not apply just to Abel. It could be interpreted to say if you don't agree with us, go to another forum.


I suppose it could be taken that way. But, at least when I was a Baptist and a moderator here, the position of the moderation team is that there were lines you could cross that would mean you weren't welcome here. The lines weren't about people disagreeing with us. We disagree with each other every day on this forum and sometimes forcefully. Just this week I've been disagreeing with Haruo on soteriology, with Sandy on issues with the CBF, and Ed and I often disagree as well.

So it isn't about people coming on the forum who disagree with us. It is about crossing certain lines of civil behavior. Mariner/Abel made it his business to try to come here (and on other forums) and insist we weren't Christian because we weren't Catholic. He allowed no other opinion or expression of the church to hold any validity. His sole purpose for being here was to convert Protestants to his faith.

IMHO, that crosses a line. Any forum which allows any behavior no matter how insulting or inappropriate is a forum that will soon die. People avoid forums were they will be attacked, reviled, or put down. That is why good forums have moderators that make people follow the rules.

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Re: Do we have any SBCers other than our GA friend

Postby Ed Pettibone » Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:53 am

Ed: And rfuss, let me add, that where I said " I do not believe that any one has been mistreated simply because he or she was/is Southern Baptist. I will expand that to, I do not believe that any one has been mistreated on these boards simply because he or she was/is a conservative or a fundamentalist, of what ever religious affiliation.
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Re: Do we have any SBCers other than our GA friend

Postby rfuss » Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:40 pm

It appears that I may have misinterpreted the thread title question.

I interpreted the question to mean "Do we still have any SBCers other than our GA friend?" as though some SBCers had left. Based on the comments, the question actually is "Do we have anyone who is still in the SBC other that our GA friend?".

I was responding to the first question above wondering why some SBCers have left.

Sorry for the confusion.

BTW, I am still in the SBC although I seldom post.
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Baseball and fundamentalism

Postby Stephen Fox » Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:11 pm

Ed; I still hold the definition of fundamentalism is inerrancy; and that was the takeover rubric of the SBC. As a friend while on 3 out of four Sunday's I might just as soon hear Thornton preach as hear you, by the SBC definition Thornton is a fundamentalist.

That said I do want to think William for his affirmation for my tribute at my blog about my High School band director. Still waitin on some of my moderate friends to read and affirm.

I do hope William will take another look. Put a little more polish on it after his affirmation with a football and baseball aside and analogy.
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Re: Do we have any SBCers other than our GA friend

Postby Ed Pettibone » Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:25 pm

rfuss wrote:It appears that I may have misinterpreted the thread title question.

I interpreted the question to mean "Do we still have any SBCers other than our GA friend?" as though some SBCers had left. Based on the comments, the question actually is "Do we have anyone who is still in the SBC other that our GA friend?".

I was responding to the first question above wondering why some SBCers have left.

Sorry for the confusion.

BTW, I am still in the SBC although I seldom post.


Ed; And I wold ask rfuss do you feel you have ever been mistreated on these boards. If I under stand what you are saying, I would say your initial interpretation was correct. I was wondering if there are any and if so how many SBCers still active here. I can got to the members listings and identify several SBCers who have not posted for nearly a year some a lot longer. looking at several of your old post today, I am not sure I ever knew you where/are SBC. I have not always agreed with you but you seem rather responsible in the presentation of your ideas.
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Re: Do we have any SBCers other than our GA friend

Postby John Sneed » Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:20 pm

I am not an SBCer anymore. So ...
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Re: Baseball and fundamentalism

Postby Ed Pettibone » Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:40 pm

Stephen Fox wrote:Ed, I still hold the definition of fundamentalism is inerrancy; and that was the takeover rubric of the SBC. As a friend while on 3 out of four Sunday's I might just as soon hear Thornton preach as hear you, by the SBC definition Thornton is a fundamentalist.

That said I do want to think William for his affirmation for my tribute at my blog about my High School band director. Still waitin on some of my moderate friends to read and affirm.

I do hope William will take another look. Put a little more polish on it after his affirmation with a football and baseball aside and analogy.


Ed: Stephen, when you start a post by addressing me, please use a comma rather a semicolon. With the semicolon it looks as if I am the one writing.

So back to your comment in the first paragraph above. It is my studied opinion that to define fundamentalism by any one word is shortsighted. But if fundamentalism could be defined by one word it would not be inerrancy. Contentious would fit much better. The reason I say inerrancy does not define fundamentalism is that while I have never met a fundamentalist who is not an inerrantist, Not all inerrantist are fundamentalist, many are conservatives who where improperly taught that to acknowledge error in scripture is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit who inspired (dictated to) the writers.

Again for definitions of fundamentalism, conservatism, Moderate and Liberal , I refer all readers to the writings of David Dockery, President of Union University and former Dean of Theology at SBTS before the takeover was finalized. The one I have before me, I have used here many times. It is in the spring 1988 edition of the Theological Educator the academic journal of New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary he has used the same rubric in at least three subsequent books. Dockery was writing on the Pro side of inerrancy in that Journal article. On the Con side was Philip Wise who latter became a leader in CBF before his death 2009. In his article Wise explains his journey from inerrancy to; as he calls it "Non-inrrency". ( I do not care for that double negative) And he goes on to point out that one of the best arguments against inerrency is the inconstancy in positions used to support it. The"Chicago Statement on Inerrancy" allows proponents to pick and choose among 7 definitions of the term. This is another argument against the use of Inerrancy to define Fundamentalism. First you would have to explain which definition inerrancy you where using.
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Re: Do we have any SBCers other than our GA friend

Postby Ed Pettibone » Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:50 pm

John Sneed wrote:I am not an SBCer anymore. So ...


Ed: Hi John, it has been a long time. If you are no longer SBC, what are you, Independent or, conservative Baptist or are you no longer Baptist? Or have you seen the light and come over to the ABC-USA and or CBF? :D Don't stay away for so long.
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Re: Do we have any SBCers other than our GA friend

Postby rfuss » Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:30 am

Ed Pettibone wrote:
rfuss wrote:It appears that I may have misinterpreted the thread title question.

I interpreted the question to mean "Do we still have any SBCers other than our GA friend?" as though some SBCers had left. Based on the comments, the question actually is "Do we have anyone who is still in the SBC other that our GA friend?".

I was responding to the first question above wondering why some SBCers have left.

Sorry for the confusion.

BTW, I am still in the SBC although I seldom post.


Ed; And I wold ask rfuss do you feel you have ever been mistreated on these boards. If I under stand what you are saying, I would say your initial interpretation was correct. I was wondering if there are any and if so how many SBCers still active here. I can got to the members listings and identify several SBCers who have not posted for nearly a year some a lot longer. looking at several of your old post today, I am not sure I ever knew you where/are SBC. I have not always agreed with you but you seem rather responsible in the presentation of your ideas.


In no way have I been mistreated on this board. Have there been many SBCers that used to post here, but have left? I know of one, died in the wool, SBCer that used to post here, but I haven't seen any post from him in a long time. I guess that is why I took the question the way I did.
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Re: Do we have any SBCers other than our GA friend

Postby Dave Roberts » Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:16 pm

Actually, as I read posts about the SBC, there seems to be every attitude here from uncritical endorsement of anything SBC to absolute rejection of anything that smacks of the SBC, and there is every stripe in between. For a lot of folks, the politics of the SBC became even more intolerable than the theology. I'm interim pastor in what is probably the most left of center Baptist church in the group, but there are still SBC elements in things about the church. Makes life interesting, doesn't it.
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Re: Do we have any SBCers other than our GA friend

Postby John Sneed » Sat Jan 26, 2013 2:44 pm

Ed, I see a push in the SBC to rid itself of any Calvinistic influence. Whether it will be successful or not, I am no prophet. But the atmosphere is hostile to Calvinists now. I moved to the ARBCA, the Association of Reformed Baptist Churches in America. I am much more comfortable here.
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Re: Do we have any SBCers other than our GA friend

Postby Ed Pettibone » Sat Jan 26, 2013 3:04 pm

John Sneed wrote:Ed, I see a push in the SBC to rid itself of any Calvinistic influence. Whether it will be successful or not, I am no prophet. But the atmosphere is hostile to Calvinists now. I moved to the ARBCA, the Association of Reformed Baptist Churches in America. I am much more comfortable here.


Ed: John there is another small village just east of us called Ballston Lake. Ballston Lake and Burnt hills are to day are less than a half mile apart, They have what seems to be a thriving ARBCA churh . From the little I know about them I am not surprise that you are comfortable with them. I have to confess that I had never heard of the before we came to this area of New York.
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