The BF&M and Communion

[Sandy]

[Tom Parker]

Sandy:

You said:'It sure shoots holes in all the rhetoric that's been dumped in this thread."

I think you are mistaken, you are the one guilty of rhetoric in this thread. But Paige Patterson would be proud of you.

[Haruo]

How many verses of the Bible mention the "senior pastor", of whatever gender, including those passages that restrict said office to males?

That's right, zero. The "office of senior pastor" is one of the "traditions of men" (men here meaning men and women), and a fairly recent one at that.

[Dave Roberts]

[Ed Pettibone]

[Sandy]

The issue of the term "senior pastor" scripturally applies to the interpretation of the term that is used interchangeably in the New Testament by both Peter and Paul, specifically as applied in both I Timothy 3 and 1 Peter 5, a reference to the "elders" that shepherd (pastor) the flock, the "overseer" or Bishop. Of course, you've heard this explained a hundred times, so you know specifically what it meant by the term "senior pastor."

Within the SBC, the acceptance of this interpretation of scripture isn't an issue. You cannot determine that the acceptance of women as pastors of churches, or the idea that they can do everything that men can do in the church is some sort of evaluative standard that measures the "rightness" of denominations, or of theology in general, which is exactly what the criticism of the BFM2000 on this issue is doing. And the idea that denominations which do ordain women are somehow going to gain a leg up on Southern Baptists in gaining more younger members down the road is just not going to materialize. The SBC has experienced some decline, in the past few years, and that's been disconcerting to those in leadership, but it is nothing compared to what most American Protestant denominations, most of whom ordain women and call them as pastors, have experienced for decades. And at the current rates of decline, they will be gone a long time before the SBC kicks the bucket.

Those younger people who will find their way into the church, or remain in it, down the road won't be knocking down the doors of traditional churches, with distinctions between "clergy" and "laity". They are going to form small, informal churches led by people who have primary careers in other fields, and who won't have a label or a designation, and perhaps not even a degree from a seminary or divinity school. That's already happening. Not only is it a matter of practicality, in many cases, and it is catching on, not so much because it is "trendy," but because it is an organic form of Christianity.

[Dave Roberts]

But, if you take the BFM2K literally, it only applies if the position is named "senior pastor" therefore, "pastor," "associate pastor," "youth pastor," and "senior adult pastor" must be OK for women. After all, if Genesis must be taken literally as youth earth creationism, the the BFM2K must also be taken literally

[Tim Bonney]

[Tim Bonney]

[Tim Bonney]

[William Thornton]

[Ed Pettibone]

[Tim Bonney]

[Sandy]

[Tim Bonney]

[Sandy]

[Tom Parker]

Tim: You said:"it is simply not inline with SBC fundamentalism."

Sadly IMO it is SBC FUNDAMENTALISM!

[Tim Bonney]

[William Thornton]

BTW, not that the original topic means anything anymore here but the church I attended this morning served the Lord's Supper. Nothing was said about who could or could not participate.

[Dave Roberts]

[Tom Parker]

[Sandy]

[Tom Parker]

Sandy:

You said to Tim:"And you know as well as I do that going back into the history of Baptists, Methodists and virtually all American Protestants, and through church history, women were not called to shepherd the flock, or be the "Overseer" of Christian congregations. But as is always the case in this argument, those who argue from the position that the BFM2000 expresses a "fundamentalist" view of women in the church are arguing against a straw man that doesn't exist in the SBC. The BFM2000 only states that a woman can't occupy the named office of "Episkopos", the overseeing, shepherding bishop of a local body of believers. Women occupy positions of leadership across the board in Southern Baptist churches and in denominational life. both vocationally and voluntarily, and to characterize the BFM2000's position on the issue as being "fundamentalist" is an inaccurate distortion. "

I'll say it again, you must be a spokesperson for the TAKEOVER OF THE SBC, as you are so way off on what you type there is not a shred of credibility to way you are trying to say.

[Tim Bonney]

Do you hear yourself Sandy? Lordy, look back as some old threads why don't you? We've all had the women in ministry discussion before and many churches have concluded that the call of Christ to preach comes to both men and women. We've had this argument likely a dozen times before. I'm not playing that game any more. I doubt Jesus himself could convince you to change your mind about this one.

I should really say thank you on behalf of the UMC and the rest of mainline churches for sending us your bright, committed and called women to serve in our churches. Your loss and our gain.

Maybe if you'd ever had the opportunity to work with great women pastors like I have you might think differently. I've worked with women like Trinette McCray, former President of the ABC/USA and one of the best preachers I have ever heard in my life. One sermon I heard her preach at an ABC General Board event was one of the most Holy Spirit filled message I've ever heard in my life. The former pastor of Garfield Park Baptist Church in Indianapolis was one of the best pastors I've ever known in church leadership and preaching.

My two former District Superintendents in Cedar Falls, both women, are incredible leaders and gave great support to my ministry and my move the UMC when I came into the denomination. Of the ten UMC churches in Sioux City I already know several women pastors and they are gifted and qualified. One of them pastors the third largest UMC church in the city and she is doing a great job.

Anyone who has served in denominations that lift up women in ministry and see their work can't help but laugh (or cry) at the backward thinking that still leads some churches to deny the calling and gifts of women to the roles of Bishop, Elder, Deacon, or whatever term different churches use for persons in ordained leadership.

Again, your loss our gain.

[Tim Bonney]

Oh, I know William we are miles off of communion as a discussion. Sorry!

I've never attended a closed communion Baptist church myself. I have worshipped with my Roman Catholic friends and not been able to commune and it is frustrating for the sake of Christian unity that all the churches can't get past an idea of controlling the table of the Lord that you can't support from scripture.

Personally, I've never denied anyone access to the table. And I won't be doing so in the future either.