ABP Story on Chic Fil A

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Re: ABP Story on Chic Fil A

Postby Big Daddy Weaver » Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:01 pm

I think Christians - Baptists in the South are a little late to this conversation - ought to be able to have a civil and healthy debate and discussion about these kind of topics.

For example, look at all the media attention that this Chick-fil-A story is getting over the fact that Truett & Dan Cathy have been generous to some very anti-gay organizations.

[I think this specific conversation about CFA has to be more nuanced. Some gay rights groups are painting with an unfair broad-brush. I'm quite comfortable calling Tony Perkins and FRC anti-gay. They actively work to take away existing rights for same-sex couples and do so with a rhetoric that is divisive, demeaning and sometimes downright dangerous.

But some of the organizations that CFA supports that has been labeled anti-gay are groups like Fellowship of Christian Athletes. I'm also not prepared to label as anti-gay a generic evangelical group that has as its sole purpose the goal of marriage enrichment. The media and progressives should distinguish between these groups and political outfits like Family Research Council.]

...but what about the ongoing debates (been happening for many years now) among mainline Protestant denominations about U.S. corporations that are doing profiting from and aiding Israel's "occupation" (or whatever you want to call it) in Gaza. Caterpillar is one such corporation (we have a plant here in Waco).

One thing is for sure, the Cathys have not done physical harm to anyone via their donations. If at least a couple of the accusations are true, the same can't be said for groups like Caterpillar in Gaza.

But that side of the "corporate responsibility" issue doesn't get much attention in the United States — except when Methodists and Presbyterians meet to discuss whether to divest or not.

I'm not a fan of corporations that support political organizations. That said, is CFA that different than Starbucks?

I don't have any plans to stop eating my chicken nuggets and strips. Cathy may profit from my business from his Atlanta headquarters. But—when I eat at Chick-fil-A whether on the Baylor campus or at the Waco restaurant, I'm doing so because the food is delicious and because the people that run Chick-fil-A locally are great people and because Chick-fil-A is a good community partner supporting many local education initiatives.

Perhaps more importantly as far as my belly is concerned, if I boycotted CFA, what would I do at every Baylor football game, men's basketball game, women's basketball game and baseball game that I attend? My option would be to eat either a "Bear Dawg" which is about the nastiest hotdog I've ever had!
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Re: ABP Story on Chic Fil A

Postby Sandy » Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:12 pm

Tim Bonney wrote:You know, a much wider discussion than the Chic Fil A story might be, "When should businesses get involved in political issues outside of business practices and law?"

Businesses are in business to make money. As far as product goes, I think Chi Fil A has a good product. I've thought it was several steps above what you get from similar vendors. But in taking sides in the culture wars the owner was bound to make someone mad on either side of the argument and negatively effect his business.

To me the way to get a handle on this kind of thing is to go back to some sensible laws on financial contributions to politics, political agendas, and candidates. Right now the sky is the limit and if you are rich enough you can flood the airwaves with your viewpoint. Is that fair? Basically money has been ruled to be speech in our society. How is this fair in a democracy?


Wealthy business interests in energy production and health insurance are in the process of buying a favorable government for themselves as we speak. But the key is limiting lobbying as well as political contributions. FRC is not a PAC as far as I know, therefore, it can receive unlimited money for lobbying. Lobbying turns democratically elected officials into special interest pushers. That's where the money trail should end. But boycotting business that supports lobbyist doesn't work because someone else takes up the slack when you quit buying. Lobbyist access to Congress should be cut off.
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Dan Cathy on Berry Board

Postby Stephen Fox » Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:14 pm

Board of Trustees.

So this matter gets complicated when you look at what Nelson Price is doing across town at Shorter College.

Then if you bring it to Dan's alma mater of Samford, you open up the can of worms of Bentlley's appoiintees to the Board of Bama APTV and the brouhaha over David Barton who is backed by the Alliance Defense Fund. All that would bring into question Truett Cathy's understanding of the legacy of his namesake George W. Truett, about which BDW knows a good bit.
That said, in the nuance on this board I tend to come down with BDW to this point over the Tim Bonney.

This could be a teachable moment for the Cathy's especially when it comes to their funding of FRC and James Dobson. Dobson supported Judge Roy Moore to the bitter end in the Ten Commandments crusade. Still I side with the Cathy's when it comes to corporate ethics and the enormous good they have done with their wealth.

Some seminars where Chic Fil A comes up to speed on the learning curve in regard Family Research Council, Alliance Defense Fund, and David Barton are in order.

In the meantime and for a long time to come I will continue to delight in the Chic Fil A culinary experience and wholesome atmosphere of their dining experience. Socrates said cleanliness is next to Godliness and Chic Fil A sets a grand example for all of us in that regard.
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Re: ABP Story on Chic Fil A

Postby Timothy Bonney » Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:19 pm

I don't know about totally cutting off lobbying activities because often they are representing groups of citizens who should be heard. But I do think lobbying needs regulation as does political spending.

BDW I don't fault you for continuing to eat at Chi Fil A. And I'm sure there are other restaurants out there where the owner spends his money in many questionable ways. But right now I do know how Cathy is spending his money. So the whole enjoyment of eating his food has gone right out the door for me. So I'll turn towards food which may not be as palatable when it comes to taste of the product but turns my stomach a whole lot less in the area of social responsibility.
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Re: ABP Story on Chic Fil A

Postby Big Daddy Weaver » Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:37 pm

In addition to cleanliness, the service is generally exceptional. And when it isn't, when I have to wait just a few extra minutes than normal, our local Chick-fil-A personally delivers a free sandwich coupon with the meal. Sometimes I delight in their tardiness just for the sake of that coupon.

Truthfully Timothy, with Chick-fil-A it's a Devil you Know versus a Devil you don't know situation.

We know what we know about Chick-fil-A. But we really don't know much at all about the chains we frequent and - more specifically - the local "owners" of those particular restaurants.

For example, the family that owns several Fazoili's restaurants in our area is a right-winger who supports many causes and organizations that I strongly oppose. When I buy a meal at Fazoli's much more money goes into his pocket than goes into the Cathys pockets when I buy a sandwich.

My father-in-law ran to be County Judge a couple years ago as a Democrat. Our county has about 250K. As he was meeting and greeting folks and trying to raise money, I learned more than I wanted about local business owners and their politics.

Even at the national level, Target and Wal-Mart have dealt with similar issues as CFA is dealing with now.

I'm sure folks in bigger cities than Waco have more options. But if you take Target and Wal-Mart off the table, I'm not left with many shopping choices. I've calculated that in less than a year, I've saved well over $100 buying generic Wal-Mart diapers and baby wipes.

The deeper you look into the donations of major corporations and the politics of local business owners, the more complicated the picture gets. I actually think we should be socially responsible and take these practices into consideration. I'm leery of quick calls for boycotts though. I think Christians ought to have debates and discussions and think through these issues together in some form or fashion.
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The Koch Brothers just

Postby Stephen Fox » Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:52 pm

Bought the local Chicken plant here in NE Bama where 5 of the top ten grads in a class of 40 were Hispanics. So what am I supposed to do, be a martyr? :lol: :brick:

For the record as Sean McKenzie who often writes for Ethicsdaily.com on immigration and whose father is progressive Baptist and teaches church state every two years or so where Dan Cathy is a trustee at Berry, Baps Today John Pierce alma mater; McKenzie reports that two years ago the Cathy's and chic fil a were progressive voice on the Dream Act.

So interesting reverberations all around for this CFA story
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Re: ABP Story on Chic Fil A

Postby Sandy » Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:21 pm

Big Daddy Weaver wrote:In addition to cleanliness, the service is generally exceptional. And when it isn't, when I have to wait just a few extra minutes than normal, our local Chick-fil-A personally delivers a free sandwich coupon with the meal. Sometimes I delight in their tardiness just for the sake of that coupon.

Truthfully Timothy, with Chick-fil-A it's a Devil you Know versus a Devil you don't know situation.

We know what we know about Chick-fil-A. But we really don't know much at all about the chains we frequent and - more specifically - the local "owners" of those particular restaurants.

For example, the family that owns several Fazoili's restaurants in our area is a right-winger who supports many causes and organizations that I strongly oppose. When I buy a meal at Fazoli's much more money goes into his pocket than goes into the Cathys pockets when I buy a sandwich.

My father-in-law ran to be County Judge a couple years ago as a Democrat. Our county has about 250K. As he was meeting and greeting folks and trying to raise money, I learned more than I wanted about local business owners and their politics.

Even at the national level, Target and Wal-Mart have dealt with similar issues as CFA is dealing with now.

I'm sure folks in bigger cities than Waco have more options. But if you take Target and Wal-Mart off the table, I'm not left with many shopping choices. I've calculated that in less than a year, I've saved well over $100 buying generic Wal-Mart diapers and baby wipes.

The deeper you look into the donations of major corporations and the politics of local business owners, the more complicated the picture gets. I actually think we should be socially responsible and take these practices into consideration. I'm leery of quick calls for boycotts though. I think Christians ought to have debates and discussions and think through these issues together in some form or fashion.


I think it would be easy to go bankrupt, or at least be deprived of a whole lot of food, clothing, auto parts, tires, gasoline and a lot of other essentials because of the price you'd have to pay for them if you geared all of your spending around your political convictions. Back during the 2004 election, there was a mother in the school where I was junior high principal who proudly announced that she was boycotting Heinz foods because of Kerry's second wife. I thought I should help her out in her efforts, so I gave her a list of all of Heinz' subsidiary companies. Her jaw dropped. On top of that, I told her that many of the board members of Heinz, and its subsidiaries, were major contributors to Republican politicians. These are multi-billion dollar profit generators. I've also heard that there are businesses who have discovered that if Don Wildmon and the American Family Council announced a boycott, it often meant increased attention and increased business from people who disagreed with them. So I just do business where the prices are balanced with the quality of the product, and meets the needs of my wallet, and leave politics to the politicians. Oh, I do make political contributions. That's where I can make a real difference, and it is worth it.
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Re: ABP Story on Chic Fil A

Postby Timothy Bonney » Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:00 pm

I agree with both BDW and Sandy that there is a lot of questionable spending I don't know about. But this one falls for me into the "eating meet sacrificed to idols" category. I know now that a lot of people do know what the money is being spent on. And I'd feel like a poor witness eating their food now. I'm not out promoting the boycott per se. But I'm not willing to eat there a be a stumbling block either.
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Re: ABP Story on Chic Fil A

Postby Ed Pettibone » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:25 pm

Ed: Aaron I agree with a lot you have said but when you say "I'm sure folks in bigger cities than Waco have more options. But if you take Target and Wal-Mart off the table, I'm not left with many shopping choices. I've calculated that in less than a year, I've saved well over $100 buying generic Wal-Mart diapers and baby wipes. " You could save even more using cloth diapers and wash cloths and laundering them as we did with three kids. 8) You do know that they make cloth diapers do you not? :wink: A Lot more eco friendly also.
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Re: ABP Story on Chic Fil A

Postby Sandy » Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:14 pm

Tim Bonney wrote:I agree with both BDW and Sandy that there is a lot of questionable spending I don't know about. But this one falls for me into the "eating meet sacrificed to idols" category. I know now that a lot of people do know what the money is being spent on. And I'd feel like a poor witness eating their food now. I'm not out promoting the boycott per se. But I'm not willing to eat there a be a stumbling block either.


What if several of your church members worked at Chic-Fil-A? Or one of them was the local store manager? This can become complicated. So if the boycott is successful, what happens if 1,000 employees get laid off who are Democrats and used their pay to make campaign contributions the other way?
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Re: ABP Story on Chic Fil A

Postby William Thornton » Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:23 pm

The most salient thing CFA said in response to all the stories about Dan Cathy's comment was that they treat all customers the same. I don't know why this isn't sufficient. I don't care what their political leanings are.

BTW, CFA got a plug from the pulpit in the church I attended Sunday. I was so fired up, I decided to go eat Sunday lunch there...but wait...closed on Sunday.
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Re: ABP Story on Chic Fil A

Postby Timothy Bonney » Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:30 pm

Sandy wrote:
What if several of your church members worked at Chic-Fil-A? Or one of them was the local store manager? This can become complicated. So if the boycott is successful, what happens if 1,000 employees get laid off who are Democrats and used their pay to make campaign contributions the other way?


Yes Sandy, it can be complicated. But again, I'm not pushing the boycot. I'm not going to eat there anymore. Now if Chic-Fil-A was depending on my business to stay afloat they are in trouble. I probably didn't eat there more than three or four times a year anyway. That makes the decision easier. Three of four times a year turns into zero because I'm uncomfortable with the company. Again, I'm not telling you what to do. But what I spend my money in my wallet on is my decision and not the members of the church I pastor. In the UMC pastors don't have to be afraid they'll be shown the door for taking a moral stand, even a moral stand someone in their church doesn't agree with, as long as they don't try to say that a personal stand is the church's position on some issue.
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Re: ABP Story on Chic Fil A

Postby Haruo » Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:32 pm

I only ate there once. I'll probably never eat there again. I may never buy coffee at Albertson's again. But I won't as a matter of determined principle boycott either CFA or Joe Albertson's supermarket, though in the latter case if I bought coffee there it would make me feel a bit like a Shabbos Sheygets...
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NY Times has picked up the story

Postby Stephen Fox » Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:21 pm

Billy Graham has come out in support of them. I called BGEA in Charlotte today and asked them to read Giberson and Stephens.
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Religion Dispatches joins the fray

Postby Stephen Fox » Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:26 pm

http://www.religiondispatches.org/dispa ... 822#c29822

I commented there with a plug for Bl.com accenting some of BDW's finer points.
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My email to Billy Graham

Postby Stephen Fox » Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:52 pm

I called the BGEA headquarters in Charlotte this morning; and I left a facebook message on the NY Times story as it appeared in the Spartanburg Herald, goupstate.com

And I have commented at the www.abpnews.com story on CFA where I testified about my religion class with Dan Cathy at Furman the fall of 1971.



I challenge the Cathy's, the Graham Family, Franklin and Anne Lotz in particular to have a careful reading of Giberson and Stephens The Anointed.

Further reading may include Joe Crespino's book In Search of Another Country; about how the likes of SBC Peace Committee's Charles Pickering and folks in the wider, Cathy/Graham network sought to maintain the prominence of their values in the South post the upheaval of the 60's.

Sexual politics aside, there is a lot of genuine Baptist and evangelical dissent about some aspects in the fog of this discussion; especially the wider influence of Focus on the Family which CFA is reportedly entangled in.



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Open Blog to Mike Huckabee

Postby Stephen Fox » Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:25 pm

I am considering writing an open letter to Huckabee on my blog that I will link in an email to his Fox News account.

Been trying to coordinate with BDW Weaver of Baylor but can't get him to the phone. Maybe he and I could collaborate on something for religiondispatches.

Meanwhile here is this piece up today that goes to the heart of the lament.

Do read the comments when you go there.

http://www.religiondispatches.org/dispa ... ngelicals/
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Rachel Held Evans and Randall Balmer in the conversation

Postby Stephen Fox » Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:48 pm

http://rachelheldevans.com/chick-fil-a

Balmer has commented on my blog; and Evans blog thoughts are linked above.
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Jonathan Merritt on Chic Fil A

Postby Stephen Fox » Mon Jul 30, 2012 7:47 pm

In the Atlantic of all places.

Belies the strength of BDW's numbers on Focus on the Family. Or maybe the 1,000 was for Family Research Council and Dobson is higher. Would be good to have the real number for JAmes Dobson.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/arc ... a/260139/#
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Roy Moore's Chick Fil A

Postby Stephen Fox » Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:49 pm

On the way to the Huckabee event at Gadsden Chick Fil A, the nearest to one of Judge Roy Moore's base of operations, Crosspoint Church.

That said, the folks there have always been nice to me and it is one of the Best units in the chain.
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Re: ABP Story on Chic Fil A

Postby ET » Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:08 pm

Well, my son has put in 10+ hours today at the Chic-fil-A where he has worked for almost 7 years since starting high school.
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Huckabee day in Gadsden Alabama

Postby Stephen Fox » Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:21 pm

Thought I would see Judge Roy Moore today in Gadsden CFA but didn't see him. I was in line for 45 minutes and waited a good 15 to get my food. Had several interesting conversations one with an Ole Miss grad who still lives in Oxford; a poli sci major. I think she is going to read Giberson and Stephens.

Several interesting conversations on Dan Cathy's personal Public figure Facebook wall; one that an hour ago raised the question of what they alleged are his several million dollar donations to Family Research Council.

Yall with Facebook may want to take a peak.

http://www.facebook.com/DanTCathy
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Mercer Prez Underwood and Cathy

Postby Stephen Fox » Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:39 pm

Just posted the link to this book on Dan Cathy's Facebook Wall.

http://paulharvey.org/2012/02/07/moses- ... trickster/
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Berry College Trustee Dan Cathy and Mercer Prez Underwood

Postby Stephen Fox » Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:25 pm

Here is my comment in the Rome News Tribune where Dan Cathy is a Berry College Trustee

Truett Cathy was named for George W. Truett who was born in Hayesville, N.C. and has a divinity school named for him now at Baylor.

Mercer President Underwood among others as I understand him has serious misgivings about the implications of the Cahty's support of Family Research Council and James Dobson's Focus on the Family.

There was a struggle for the Soul of the Southern Baptist Convention in the 80's and it remains unclear what lessons the Cathy's learned from that struggle. As I have said many times, an exploration of Giberson and Stephens The Anointed may help the Cathy's refine some of their thinking on the Christian Life, an open mind and support of authentic liberal arts education.

As for their Baptist pilgrimage, Jeff Rogers lecture in the Smyth and Helwys collection What Really Matters may help as well.


Read more: RN-T.com - Rome locations of Chick fil A filled with supporters of appreciation day
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Georgetown College Conservative engages conversation

Postby Stephen Fox » Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:58 pm

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