ABP Story on Chic Fil A

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ABP Story on Chic Fil A

Postby Stephen Fox » Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:23 pm

Here is the comment I submitted there

Dan Cathy and I shared the same class as Freshen at Furman the fall of 1971 at Furman. It was Bob Crapps intro to the Bible, Crapps one of the Three authors of People of the Covenant with Jack Flanders and Smith, the book that outraged Paul Pressler when it came to his attention at Baylor.

The Cathy family does great work. Dan's father is named for George Truett. While the progressive Baptist movement may differ with Dan's convictions on this matter, Chic Fil A should not be judged solely on this social issue.

I am caught somewhere in my thinking between my friend's convictions on this matter and that of Sarah Shelton, and her June 10 sermon at bcoc.net. For the record, it is fairly well known long time President of Samford, Tom Corts, strongly considered joining BCOC when Sarah became pastor.

Samford was the school from which Dan and his brother eventually graduated.

And for some to remember, Truett Cathy came to support Kirby Godsey at Mercer when a trustee there, though I am sure Cathy had some differences with Godsey.

Point being there is a long spectrum among to the left of the CBF among Baptists.

Dan Cathy is a grand Baptists and a Grand American.

I hope he will keep pilgriming in the faith, as should we all.

While he is taking stands, would be interesting to see how he comes down on Richard Kremer's Inerrancy sermon at Save Our Shorter; and to see how he would position himself as a Berry Trustee in regard Shorter, remembering his father's affirmation of Godsey.

While myself and others are open to more light and dialogue on this matter than it appears Dan to be, his conscience and conviction should be honored, and his family and company's longstanding reputation affirmed and applauded.
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Re: ABP Story on Chic Fil A

Postby Big Daddy Weaver » Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:48 pm

I affirm the good work that the Cathy family has done. And they've done great work especially helping troubled boys and girls. The boys home in my hometown - Paul Anderson Youth Home - has several buildings named after the Cathy family. Truett Cathy - or Uncle Truett as the "boys" there know him - has supported that youth home since the late Olympian (former "World's Strongest Man") Paul Anderson started it decades ago.

Lots of other great charitable works too. I've also always heard that Chick-fil-A pays its employees better than other competitors. I don't know if this is true or not.

However, I don't affirm how the Cathy family has directed their corporation to donate large amounts of money to support certain organizations like Family Research Council - an organization that does much more harm than good, IMO.

I also affirm the freedom of folks to refrain from eating Cathy's delicious chicken treats.

That said, I eat at Chick-fil-A at least once a week, generally Saturday lunch at the Waco location.

I think this emerging controversy does give us Baptist moderates and progressives a good opportunity to talk about stuff like corporate responsibility and socially and ethically responsible investments. We Baptists from the South don't chat much about that. Although, American Baptists were very involved in the corporate responsibility movement in past decades. Most recently, PC-USA had a big debate about investing in businesses in Israel like Caterpillar (big Caterpillar location here in Waco)
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Re: ABP Story on Chic Fil A

Postby Sandy » Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:16 pm

Big Daddy Weaver wrote:However, I don't affirm how the Cathy family has directed their corporation to donate large amounts of money to support certain organizations like Family Research Council - an organization that does much more harm than good, IMO.


There are some things that the Cathy family and Chic-Fil-A have done that confirm their way of doing business, and their financial support, as being conviction based, rather than motivated by profit. Closing on Sundays is a good example. I'm sure that costs them more in business than it gains in good will. Apparently, their convictions run in support of the Family Research Council. That probably costs them some business as well, though I would imagine it would be far more beneficial to their public relations image. I don't see that the Family Research Council is harmful in any way, shape or form. but that doesn't make me any more or less inclined to visit a Chic-Fil-A. Business is business, and I am generally not inclined to use my consumer habits to support causes, good or bad.
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Re: ABP Story on Chic Fil A

Postby Timothy Bonney » Fri Jul 20, 2012 11:06 pm

Sandy wrote: I don't see that the Family Research Council is harmful in any way, shape or form.


Really Sandy? As someone who seems to have Democratic leanings are you sure? The FRC to my understanding is strongly involved in right wing politics as well as right wing fundamentalism. You may be sympathetic to some of their theology but I wouldn't think you'd be sympathetic to their politics.
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Re: ABP Story on Chic Fil A

Postby Ed Pettibone » Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:18 am

Tim Bonney wrote:
Sandy wrote: I don't see that the Family Research Council is harmful in any way, shape or form.


Really Sandy? As someone who seems to have Democratic leanings are you sure? The FRC to my understanding is strongly involved in right wing politics as well as right wing fundamentalism. You may be sympathetic to some of their theology but I wouldn't think you'd be sympathetic to their politics.


Ed: Tim, would you be a bit more specific about the policies and politics of of FRC to which you object.
I have mixed emotions about FRC, or maybe just some of their followers that I see as being overly simplistic (too absolutely black and white) in their demands for restrictions just as IMHO, the ACLU and/or their followers are overly permissive. Both organizations provide useable information as well as biased propaganda it is up to the individual to sort it out. In other words I tend to side with fox on this one. The Cathy Family has every right to operate their business as they do. But then I almost never eat Chicken.

You may want to take a look at the FRC website, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_Research_Council
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Re: ABP Story on Chic Fil A

Postby Timothy Bonney » Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:37 am

Ed Pettibone wrote:Ed: Tim, would you be a bit more specific about the policies and politics of of FRC to which you object.
I have mixed emotions about FRC, or maybe just some of their followers that I see as being overly simplistic (too absolutely black and white) in their demands for restrictions ...


I basically agree with what you've said here Ed. The organization is very black and white, it has been listed by the Southern Poverty Law Center as a "hate group" because of statement linking gay men to pedophilia, something with no scientific backing. Most pedophiles are in fact heterosexual. They give also huge sums of money to conservative Republican politicians. And they are generally linked to the same kinds of people who are involved in conservative denominational takeovers and pushing conservative Christianity such as the Institute on Religion and Democracy.

So from Sandy's perspective I can hardly see how he'd think they are "harmless" if he really is supporting President Obama and the Democratic party.

I"m on my way out the door Ed so later I'll be happy to list areas in which I disagree with the FRC if you like.
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Re: ABP Story on Chic Fil A

Postby Ed Pettibone » Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:13 pm

Tim Bonney wrote:
Ed Pettibone wrote:Ed: Tim, would you be a bit more specific about the policies and politics of of FRC to which you object.
I have mixed emotions about FRC, or maybe just some of their followers that I see as being overly simplistic (too absolutely black and white) in their demands for restrictions ...


I basically agree with what you've said here Ed. The organization is very black and white, it has been listed by the Southern Poverty Law Center as a "hate group" because of statement linking gay men to pedophilia, something with no scientific backing. Most pedophiles are in fact heterosexual. They give also huge sums of money to conservative Republican politicians. And they are generally linked to the same kinds of people who are involved in conservative denominational takeovers and pushing conservative Christianity such as the Institute on Religion and Democracy.

So from Sandy's perspective I can hardly see how he'd think they are "harmless" if he really is supporting President Obama and the Democratic party.

I"m on my way out the door Ed so later I'll be happy to list areas in which I disagree with the FRC if you like.


Ed: Tim here is a link that I think you need to take a look at http://www.theinterim.com/2002/sept/02study.html there you will find Study shows link between homosexuality and pedophilia
----
A study (2002) by Dr. Timothy J. Dailey and the Washington D.C. recently confirmed what police and psychiatrists have known for decades: a definitive link exists between male homosexuality and pedophilia.

and says in part

"Homosexuality and Child Sexual Abuse presents a number of controversial findings. The first is that a significant percentage of child sexual abuse victims are boys. The second finding of Dailey's report contradicts the 'inaccurate but widely accepted claims of sex researcher Alfred Kinsey" that homosexuals comprise at least 10 per cent of the population. Based upon a study of three large data sets, the General Social Survey, the National Health and Social Life Survey, and the U.S. Census, "a recent study in demography estimates the number of exclusive male homosexuals in the general population at 2.5 per cent, and the number of exclusive lesbians at 1.4 per cent,' writes Dailey."

But do take time to read the whole story.
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Re: ABP Story on Chic Fil A

Postby Timothy Bonney » Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:03 pm

Ed I believe that study is disputed by other studies. But be that as it may, I don't want to get off the topic of the FRC. The FRC is just one several conservative Christian organizations that has gotten heavily involved in politics and wants to make abortion, gay marriage, and a few other issues the main reasons to vote Republican or Democrat. It is a very narrow focus for political choice and it honestly bothers me. I've met a few people who would vote for Satan himself if they thought he'd vote the way they believe on abortion or homosexuality even if the candidate is a lousy Presidential choice.

It is funny how Sandy and I agree and disagree depending on if it is politics or theology. Friend Sandy I still have a heck of a time figuring how you fit your viewpoints together. But that is your choice.
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Re: ABP Story on Chic Fil A

Postby Ed Pettibone » Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:20 pm

Tim Bonney wrote:Ed I believe that study is disputed by other studies. But be that as it may, I don't want to get off the topic of the FRC. The FRC is just one several conservative Christian organizations that has gotten heavily involved in politics and wants to make abortion, gay marriage, and a few other issues the main reasons to vote Republican or Democrat. It is a very narrow focus for political choice and it honestly bothers me. I've met a few people who would vote for Satan himself if they thought he'd vote the way they believe on abortion or homosexuality even if the candidate is a lousy Presidential choice.

It is funny how Sandy and I agree and disagree depending on if it is politics or theology. Friend Sandy I still have a heck of a time figuring how you fit your viewpoints together. But that is your choice.


Ed: Tim when you say "Ed I believe that study is disputed by other studies" , that may well be but thus far you have not produced them. So for now I will stick with the study by Dr. Timothy J. Dailey that says there is a link between homosexuality and pedophilia.

Did you even read the link that I provided? If so how do you deal with
According to Homosexuality and Child Sexual Abuse, pedophiles have long existed as a subculture within the gay rights movement. Dailey quotes David Thorstad, a homosexual activist and founding member of NAMBLA, to demonstrate that by 1985, pedophilia had gained acceptance within the homosexual movement, as it was in that year that NAMBLA was admitted as a member in New York's council of Lesbian and Gay Organizations and the International Gay Association. In the words of Jim Kepner, at one time the curator of the International Gay and Lesbian Archives in Los Angeles: "A point I've been trying to make is that if we reject the boylovers in our midst today, we'd better stop waving the banner of the ancient Greeks, of Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, Oscar Wilde, Walt Whitman, Horatio Alger, and Shakespeare. We'd better stop claiming them as part of our history unless we are broadening our concept of what it means to be gay."


This is about the FRC , you are the one who brought up the question of homosexuality and Pedophilia when you wrote of the FRC "The organization is very black and white, it has been listed by the Southern Poverty Law Center as a 'hate group' because of statement linking gay men to pedophilia, something with no scientific backing. Most pedophiles are in fact heterosexual", so you can not so easily duck Dr. Dailey's study which disputes your your support of a group that challenges it. If you are suggesting that the Southern Poverty Law Center is non political, I would say you need to track them a bit more.
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Re: ABP Story on Chic Fil A

Postby Timothy Bonney » Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:45 pm

Ed I'm not going to go dig up the studies because if there is one thing I'm avoiding discussing with you it is homosexuality. Frankly I think you are near rabid about the issue and I have no intention going around and around that subject again with you.
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Re: ABP Story on Chic Fil A

Postby Ed Pettibone » Sat Jul 21, 2012 9:16 pm

Tim Bonney wrote:Ed I'm not going to go dig up the studies because if there is one thing I'm avoiding discussing with you it is homosexuality. Frankly I think you are near rabid about the issue and I have no intention going around and around that subject again with you.


So Tim you can bring up the subject of studies on homosexuality (your post of 21 Jul 2012, 11:37 ) but I can't respond, says who? Tim, in your vocabulary what does it mean when you say "I think you are near rabid about the issue". I am of the opinion that on this subject you tend to shoot at the messenger rather than deal with the message.
If indeed you have no intention of of going around on the subject of homosexuality again please be careful to keep it out of your post.
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Re: ABP Story on Chic Fil A

Postby Sandy » Sun Jul 22, 2012 12:04 am

"Harmful" isn't the word I would choose to describe the Family Research Council. There are some positions they take that I support, or at least, agree with, others I don't. But as far as boycotting a business that contributes to them, I'm not going to do that. I don't support the Mormons, but if a Marriott hotel gives me the best rate, I'm not going to Hilton across the street.

I support businesses for very simple reasons. They have a product I need or a service I need and the price is right. There are thousands of stories circulating about what someone who owns stock in some business does with his profits. That's their choice. I'm not going to punish myself by paying a higher price, or getting less service just because of the political inclinations of people who may own a share of the business. Not all of the information out there is accurate, anyway. I remember a few years back a rumor circulating that McDonald's gave a portion of its profits to the Church of Satan. They had trouble squelching it, and it cost them a lot, even though it wasn't true. There are too many causes and agendas to keep up with and be consistent.

Truett Cathy is a great example for other businesses, proof that you can do business ethically, and without profiteering, and still make a reasonable profit.
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Re: ABP Story on Chic Fil A

Postby William Thornton » Sun Jul 22, 2012 6:35 am

Sandy wrote:Truett Cathy is a great example for other businesses, proof that you can do business ethically, and without profiteering, and still make a reasonable profit.


Afraid this is patently untrue, Sandy. CFA profiteers every minute of every day save for Sunday. They make a reasonable profit which is as much as they can. You can certainly do business ethically and profiteer. If you don't profiteer your business has less likelihood of success.
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Re: ABP Story on Chic Fil A

Postby Timothy Bonney » Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:34 am

I generally am not that big on boycotts either Sandy. But I'm just too uncomfortable with his political spending to want to contribute to his coffers for the sake of a chicken sandwich. Just the idea now of eating his product takes away my appetite. So he has lost me as a customer, boycott or no boycott. I wouldn't be able to enjoy the food. And that is why you buy the food right?

Sure he has the right to spend his money how ever he wants. And if his product was something I really needed to survive and couldn't get elsewhere I'd have an ethical dilemma to deal with. Well I don't need a chicken sandwich. So this is a case of me simply choosing to buy a chicken sandwich from one of numerous other vendors if I want one. Given what he sells it isn't even an inconvenience for me not to buy his product. And that is a problem for his business in the long run. No one needs Chic Fil A.

Business people who are running a business which basically provides something none of us really need ought to think twice about the ramifications of political involvement in hot button issues that really have nothing to do with their business. Maybe Cathy is willing to lose money on this deal, again his choice. But IMHO it isn't very good business to PO a group of your customers when you are already basically selling a "luxury item."
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Re: ABP Story on Chic Fil A

Postby Ed Pettibone » Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:38 am

William Thornton wrote:
Sandy wrote:Truett Cathy is a great example for other businesses, proof that you can do business ethically, and without profiteering, and still make a reasonable profit.


Afraid this is patently untrue, Sandy. CFA profiteers every minute of every day save for Sunday. They make a reasonable profit which is as much as they can. You can certainly do business ethically and profiteer. If you don't profiteer your business has less likelihood of success.


Ed: Mister wordmeister I think you have miss the meaning of profiteer.
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Re: ABP Story on Chic Fil A

Postby Haruo » Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:12 am

Ed's right here. "Profiteer" means to make objectionably excessive profits, not to make a profit.
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Re: ABP Story on Chic Fil A

Postby Sandy » Sun Jul 22, 2012 3:26 pm

William Thornton wrote:
Sandy wrote:Truett Cathy is a great example for other businesses, proof that you can do business ethically, and without profiteering, and still make a reasonable profit.


Afraid this is patently untrue, Sandy. CFA profiteers every minute of every day save for Sunday. They make a reasonable profit which is as much as they can. You can certainly do business ethically and profiteer. If you don't profiteer your business has less likelihood of success.


Chic-Fil-A may make a pile of money, apparently they do well given their value. But I don't see them as "profiteers." The prices for their products are reasonable for what you get, not excessive, and their places of business are not understaffed, and their employees are paid a little better than their competition. So they are ethical and make a nice profit, which is possible. Profiteer is what I would label, for example, health insurance companies who pay their executives hundreds of millions, charge exhorbatant rates for premiums, skimp on dividends and pile up the profits. Or energy companies that make windfalls on gasoline sales. That's profiteering.
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Re: ABP Story on Chic Fil A

Postby William Thornton » Sun Jul 22, 2012 6:03 pm

I take you guy's point on the def. of profiteer although I would generally reject the concept that any market where there is a willing seller and buyer that profiteering can exist. I certainly reject the assertion of profiteering by health insurance providers. Their margin is not excessive.

have you checked the margin on software?
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Re: ABP Story on Chic Fil A

Postby KeithE » Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:31 pm

William Thornton wrote:I take you guy's point on the def. of profiteer although I would generally reject the concept that any market where there is a willing seller and buyer that profiteering can exist. I certainly reject the assertion of profiteering by health insurance providers. Their margin is not excessive.

have you checked the margin on software?

When CEOs make 10'sM in salary and more in other perks/bonuses and their campuses are like at BCBS in Birmingham, and their administrative charges are 14%(when Medicare is 3%), I'd call that excessive.
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Re: ABP Story on Chic Fil A

Postby William Thornton » Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:57 am

KeithE wrote:
William Thornton wrote:I take you guy's point on the def. of profiteer although I would generally reject the concept that any market where there is a willing seller and buyer that profiteering can exist. I certainly reject the assertion of profiteering by health insurance providers. Their margin is not excessive.

have you checked the margin on software?

When CEOs make 10'sM in salary and more in other perks/bonuses and their campuses are like at BCBS in Birmingham, and their administrative charges are 14%(when Medicare is 3%), I'd call that excessive.


I thought this might get your attention.
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Re: ABP Story on Chic Fil A

Postby Big Daddy Weaver » Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:27 am

Just wanted to add that Timothy Daily - who wrote the homosexuality links to pedophilla "studies" - has long served FRC as a staff member, research fellow, etc. His research is funded by FRC and friends of FRC. He's not in the business of doing peer-reviewed research.

His findings have been widely critiqued from the left and right especially with regard to his methodology. That particular study is not taken seriously by anyone including conservative evangelicals who study same-sex relationships, etc.

I don't want to debate that. It's a waste of time.

There are many conservative Christian groups out there that deal with "family" and "marriage" issues. Most don't have the reputation of FRC which this year alone has given an award to an incredibly vile anti-gay pastor (conservative evangelicals criticized this) and hired as their Exec Vice-President a controversial figure that believes Muslims shouldn't enjoy religious freedom. That selection too has been criticized by conservative evangelicals, here is one.
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Re: ABP Story on Chic Fil A

Postby Timothy Bonney » Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:38 am

As usual BDW your posts are well said and well researched. You pointed to a lot of information I remember reading but didn't have the sources at hand.
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Re: ABP Story on Chic Fil A

Postby Timothy Bonney » Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:48 am

You know, a much wider discussion than the Chic Fil A story might be, "When should businesses get involved in political issues outside of business practices and law?"

Businesses are in business to make money. As far as product goes, I think Chi Fil A has a good product. I've thought it was several steps above what you get from similar vendors. But in taking sides in the culture wars the owner was bound to make someone mad on either side of the argument and negatively effect his business.

To me the way to get a handle on this kind of thing is to go back to some sensible laws on financial contributions to politics, political agendas, and candidates. Right now the sky is the limit and if you are rich enough you can flood the airwaves with your viewpoint. Is that fair? Basically money has been ruled to be speech in our society. How is this fair in a democracy?
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Chic Fil A and styrofoam cups

Postby Stephen Fox » Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:27 pm

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Re: ABP Story on Chic Fil A

Postby Ed Pettibone » Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:43 pm

Tim Bonney wrote:You know, a much wider discussion than the Chic Fil A story might be, "When should businesses get involved in political issues outside of business practices and law?"

Businesses are in business to make money. As far as product goes, I think Chi Fil A has a good product. I've thought it was several steps above what you get from similar vendors. But in taking sides in the culture wars the owner was bound to make someone mad on either side of the argument and negatively effect his business.

To me the way to get a handle on this kind of thing is to go back to some sensible laws on financial contributions to politics, political agendas, and candidates. Right now the sky is the limit and if you are rich enough you can flood the airwaves with your viewpoint. Is that fair? Basically money has been ruled to be speech in our society. How is this fair in a democracy?


Ed: Tim is your comment "Basically money has been ruled to be speech in our society" something new to you. I learned the phrase "money talks" when I was in the third grade in 1942. The way in which money is used is the important element. Here is another link for you. http://www.thenation.com/article/165861 ... ivier-zunz And here is but one tid bit from it
The government recognized the importance of philanthropic institutions when it passed the Sixteenth Amendment in 1913, which besides instituting the income tax also laid the groundwork for tax exemptions to charitable organizations and donors. “Tax exemption has not only nurtured philanthropy in society, it has entrenched it,” Zunz observes. One can question whether tax exemption has been as vital to charitable giving in America as its proponents claim. After all, before 1913 a tradition of individual and institutional giving had already been established here.


And Steve I would say the the Rev. Dr. Angela M. Yarber ... has a strange sense of "rights" what right does she have to arogantly to tell Dan Cathy how to run his business (ie; P.S. The time has passed that you replace the Styrofoam cups with something more sustainable. Please do something about this.) which she admits she does not utilize since she is a veterinarian.
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