Sexual Misconduct

Discuss current news and trends taking place in the Southern Baptist Convention.

Moderator: William Thornton

Sexual Misconduct

Postby Haruo » Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:06 pm

Just saw a headline from Fox News saying "hundreds of Southern Baptist leaders, volunteers" accused of sexual misconduct "in bombshell investigation". Don't know any more at this point.
Haruo (呂須•春男) = ᎭᎷᎣ = Leland Bryant Ross
Repeal the language taxLearn and use Esperanto
Fremont Baptist ChurchMy hymnblog
User avatar
Haruo
Site Admin
 
Posts: 12496
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 7:21 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Sexual Misconduct

Postby Rvaughn » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:00 am

Here an excerpt from the Washington Post:
The Houston Chronicle and the San Antonio Express-News reported that nearly 400 Southern Baptist church leaders and volunteers have faced sexual misconduct allegations in the past two decades. As many as 700 victims — some as young as 3 — were sexually abused, some raped and molested repeatedly, according to the report.

William mentioned this briefly at SBC Voices Friday, and may be able to supply more information.
Never has a story not yet published created such a storm in the SBC. The Houston Chronicle is promoting a story for tomorrow about sex abuse in the SBC. Over 700 victims in the past two decades will be featured in the piece. SBC president J. D. Greear, Ed Stetzer and others have already responded. The loose network of sex abuse victims and advocates anticipates the story may lead to a sea change in attitudes and perceptions for the SBC. Let the stories be told, the victims heard, and the perps held accountable.

Another contributor wrote about it at SBC Voices Saturday.
User avatar
Rvaughn
 
Posts: 1044
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 4:54 pm
Location: East Texas

Re: Sexual Misconduct

Postby Haruo » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:10 am

Yeah, that looks like a big'un.
Haruo (呂須•春男) = ᎭᎷᎣ = Leland Bryant Ross
Repeal the language taxLearn and use Esperanto
Fremont Baptist ChurchMy hymnblog
User avatar
Haruo
Site Admin
 
Posts: 12496
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 7:21 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Sexual Misconduct

Postby Dave Roberts » Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:23 am

Having read 35 pages of this from the Houston Chronicle, all I can say is that the Roman Catholic Church now has major company for not prosecuting crimes involving church staff members and allowing them to slip quietly into the night. We knew it existed, but no one had before exposed the scale, especially in Texas.
"God will never be less than He is and does not need to be more" (John Koessler)

My blog: http://emporiadave.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Dave Roberts
Site Admin
 
Posts: 7406
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 1:01 pm
Location: Southside, VA

Re: Sexual Misconduct

Postby Sandy » Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:36 am

Wow. I read the Washington Post coverage and some of the Chronicle. . Christa Brown, at her blog Stop Baptist Predators already had a lot of this information. It is time for a bylaw or constitutional change. Churches can be excluded for calling a staff member who is GLBTQ or who is a woman. They should at least be excluded for hiring someone who has been arrested and convicted of abuse. Think about that for just a minute. If that had been the case, then First Baptist Church of Jacksonville, Bellevue Baptist Church in Memphis, and Second Baptist Church of Houston would have all been excluded from SBC membership, meaning that Jerry Vines, Steve Gaines, Ed Young and Paul Pressler would never have been eligible to serve as messengers, and couldn't have been elected as trustees to multiple boards or officers.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 9149
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:10 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Sexual Misconduct

Postby Tim Bonney » Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:18 pm

I know it would be a huge polity change, and probably would never happen. But the ABC/USA has national standing for ordained clergy and a system for keeping track of them. They can also take away person's national standing for misconduct. While that doesn't remove their ordination, it is a huge red flag to regions and congregations not to call that pastor. Such a system could help the SBC a great deal. But I know it would be very difficult to create such an infrastructure when the SBC has never had one for clergy before.
Tim Bonney

First UMC of Indianola, Iowa - http://indfumc.org
My Blog - http://timbonney.com
User avatar
Tim Bonney
Site Admin
 
Posts: 6083
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:17 am
Location: Indianola, Iowa

Re: Sexual Misconduct

Postby William Thornton » Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:38 pm

Tim Bonney wrote:I know it would be a huge polity change, and probably would never happen. But the ABC/USA has national standing for ordained clergy and a system for keeping track of them. They can also take away person's national standing for misconduct. While that doesn't remove their ordination, it is a huge red flag to regions and congregations not to call that pastor. Such a system could help the SBC a great deal. But I know it would be very difficult to create such an infrastructure when the SBC has never had one for clergy before.


The SBC culture is not one where churches look to some national body for ministerial credentials or approval. The SBC could create such a system. I don't know if any sizable proportion of SBC church affiliates would ever use it or pay attention to it.
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 12224
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: Sexual Misconduct

Postby Dave Roberts » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:33 pm

William Thornton wrote:
Tim Bonney wrote:I know it would be a huge polity change, and probably would never happen. But the ABC/USA has national standing for ordained clergy and a system for keeping track of them. They can also take away person's national standing for misconduct. While that doesn't remove their ordination, it is a huge red flag to regions and congregations not to call that pastor. Such a system could help the SBC a great deal. But I know it would be very difficult to create such an infrastructure when the SBC has never had one for clergy before.


The SBC culture is not one where churches look to some national body for ministerial credentials or approval. The SBC could create such a system. I don't know if any sizable proportion of SBC church affiliates would ever use it or pay attention to it.


Would they pay attention to a database providing names of convicted sex offenders among ordained clergy? Now, to get that information takes multiple efforts across state jurisdictions and does flag in any way those whose crimes might involve churches.
"God will never be less than He is and does not need to be more" (John Koessler)

My blog: http://emporiadave.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Dave Roberts
Site Admin
 
Posts: 7406
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 1:01 pm
Location: Southside, VA

Re: Sexual Misconduct

Postby William Thornton » Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:07 pm

Dave Roberts wrote:
William Thornton wrote:
Tim Bonney wrote:I know it would be a huge polity change, and probably would never happen. But the ABC/USA has national standing for ordained clergy and a system for keeping track of them. They can also take away person's national standing for misconduct. While that doesn't remove their ordination, it is a huge red flag to regions and congregations not to call that pastor. Such a system could help the SBC a great deal. But I know it would be very difficult to create such an infrastructure when the SBC has never had one for clergy before.


The SBC culture is not one where churches look to some national body for ministerial credentials or approval. The SBC could create such a system. I don't know if any sizable proportion of SBC church affiliates would ever use it or pay attention to it.


Would they pay attention to a database providing names of convicted sex offenders among ordained clergy? Now, to get that information takes multiple efforts across state jurisdictions and does flag in any way those whose crimes might involve churches.


The database you call for already exists. The SBC EC and probably all the state conventions link to several. There's no way to cross reference ordained clergy to it unless you are searching for a particular individual by name who is ordained. I doubt the CBF could come up with a comprehensive list of ordained CBF clergy.

If the CBF comes up with a system you should already know about and be promoting it and they only have a few hundred clergy to deal with, not tens of thousands. It is not required that any SBC or CBF church report the name of their minister each year to any body, nor the names of those ordained, nor the names of those accused of wrongdoing.

If you have solutions, let's hear them.
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 12224
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: Sexual Misconduct

Postby Tim Bonney » Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:47 pm

William Thornton wrote:
The SBC culture is not one where churches look to some national body for ministerial credentials or approval. The SBC could create such a system. I don't know if any sizable proportion of SBC church affiliates would ever use it or pay attention to it.


I understand that and don't understand that. If the SBC provided a tool whereby you could know if a candidate was a sex offender or not, you'd think churches would want that information.

I think most denominations and churches need to take a hard look at polity as it related to protecting churches from sex offenders. Right now the RCC is in serious serious trouble over its problems with sex offenses. I'd think the SBC would do well to try to figure out how to avoid a similar horrible reputation.

My idea might not work at all. But you'd think millions of Southern Baptists could come up with something.
Tim Bonney

First UMC of Indianola, Iowa - http://indfumc.org
My Blog - http://timbonney.com
User avatar
Tim Bonney
Site Admin
 
Posts: 6083
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:17 am
Location: Indianola, Iowa

Re: Sexual Misconduct

Postby Rvaughn » Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:08 pm

A lot of time and energy can be expended hammering against Baptist polity (local church autonomy), seeking to change or undermine it in order to fight clergy sexual abuse in Baptist congregations. Baptist polity has been in place as long as there have been Baptists. Most Baptists are unlikely to consider changing or abandoning local autonomy. When both sides dig in with why it must be done a certain way or why it can't be done a certain, that itself becomes the discussion rather than discussing a solution that will work well within Baptist polity. To come up with ways to deal with the problem within existing Baptist polity seems a better approach to me. Such a solution might be more widely implemented among other Baptists as well, many of whom have much less denominational structure than the SBC.
User avatar
Rvaughn
 
Posts: 1044
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 4:54 pm
Location: East Texas

Re: Sexual Misconduct

Postby Sandy » Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:29 am

Timothy Bonney wrote:I understand that and don't understand that. If the SBC provided a tool whereby you could know if a candidate was a sex offender or not, you'd think churches would want that information.

I think most denominations and churches need to take a hard look at polity as it related to protecting churches from sex offenders. Right now the RCC is in serious serious trouble over its problems with sex offenses. I'd think the SBC would do well to try to figure out how to avoid a similar horrible reputation.

My idea might not work at all. But you'd think millions of Southern Baptists could come up with something.


Some did. I was at an SBC meeting when motions were made to put together a group to come up with specific solutions and make recommendations. If you read the stories, most of the suggestions and plans were "voted down" in convention meetings. That's because many of them were made by individuals not approved by the defacto leadership at the time. Now I see why.

It's hard to appeal to local church autonomy as a barrier to this issue, but have a mechanism within the convention's constitution and bylaws by which churches can be kicked out for having female pastors or including LGBT persons in church leadership. It would be very simple to add a phrase also excluding churches which knowingly hired a staff member or permitted a volunteer to serve who had a previous sexual assault record.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 9149
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:10 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Sexual Misconduct

Postby Rvaughn » Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:40 pm

Sandy wrote:It's hard to appeal to local church autonomy as a barrier to this issue, but have a mechanism within the convention's constitution and bylaws by which churches can be kicked out for having female pastors or including LGBT persons in church leadership. It would be very simple to add a phrase also excluding churches which knowingly hired a staff member or permitted a volunteer to serve who had a previous sexual assault record.
I think it is according to what it is being appealed that they should do. To me it seemed like some folks said things that sounded like they wanted the SBC to operate like a denomination that is an hierarchical organization (that is, where the church/denomination just tells the congregations what to do). However, I don't see why the SBC should object to what you mention above. (Maybe someone in the SBC could tell us why.) They have already created a mechanism to deal with churches that "endorse homosexual behavior" (I didn't find a statement about female pastors in the constitution, but I guess this goes back to the BF&M). It seems simple enough to include churches that knowingly endorse sexual assault as not having a sound faith and practice, therefore not closely identified with the Convention’s adopted statement of faith. Perhaps this gets a little tricky in that churches actually verbally advocate for homosexual inclusion but not sexual assault (while tacitly affirming it by their actions). So there you have to look at their practice rather than their statements, but it still seems plausible to me to say this rises to the same level of concern and could be handled the same way.
Article III. 1. (1) Has a faith and practice which closely identifies with the Convention’s adopted statement of faith. (By way of example, churches which act to affirm, approve, or endorse homosexual behavior would be deemed not to be in cooperation with the Convention.)

Of course, such a solution would only apply to a convention or association that has such a mechanism for excluding churches.

Related, here are some Resources for Sexual Abuse Prevention that the SBC provides on their web site.
User avatar
Rvaughn
 
Posts: 1044
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 4:54 pm
Location: East Texas

Re: Sexual Misconduct

Postby Haruo » Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:54 pm

To this outside observer the SBC's unwillingness to undertake what seem like very simple, reasonable, polity-appropriate changes in regulations aimed at making churches more accountable for watching their step with these matters very likely reflects an awareness, perhaps subconscious, on the part of many committed to the CR, that some of their own were guilty of these kinds of abuse, so that whether you see it as Christ-centered or as criminally self-centered, they were unwilling to do anything that might lead to the uncovering of the truth.
Haruo (呂須•春男) = ᎭᎷᎣ = Leland Bryant Ross
Repeal the language taxLearn and use Esperanto
Fremont Baptist ChurchMy hymnblog
User avatar
Haruo
Site Admin
 
Posts: 12496
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 7:21 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Sexual Misconduct

Postby Tim Bonney » Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:44 am

Sandy wrote:It's hard to appeal to local church autonomy as a barrier to this issue, but have a mechanism within the convention's constitution and bylaws by which churches can be kicked out for having female pastors or including LGBT persons in church leadership. It would be very simple to add a phrase also excluding churches which knowingly hired a staff member or permitted a volunteer to serve who had a previous sexual assault record.


Exactly. Congregations could be encourages (carrot or stick) to do the right thing. The will just has to be there. The SBC isn't the only congregationalist denomination. Others have figured out how to fit protecting churches and individuals from predators into their polity.

Denominations/churches where either the local church is given absolute autonomy or where the pastor is give huge amounts of individual power are both magnets for abusers. Abusers can take root and really set up shop. And if it doesn't work there they just move to another state and start over since no one is keeping track.
Tim Bonney

First UMC of Indianola, Iowa - http://indfumc.org
My Blog - http://timbonney.com
User avatar
Tim Bonney
Site Admin
 
Posts: 6083
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:17 am
Location: Indianola, Iowa

Re: Sexual Misconduct

Postby Rvaughn » Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:57 pm

Tim Bonney wrote:The SBC isn't the only congregationalist denomination. Others have figured out how to fit protecting churches and individuals from predators into their polity.
What are some of these denominations, and what steps did they take to protect individuals from assault?
User avatar
Rvaughn
 
Posts: 1044
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 4:54 pm
Location: East Texas

Re: Sexual Misconduct

Postby Sandy » Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:58 pm

The SBC hasn't done anything for thirty years that wasn't approved in advance by a small group of leaders who ran the convention by virtue of the status they gained when they initiated the "conservative resurgence." The individuals who introduced resolutions or bylaw changes to rectify a problem that was easily solved, even in a denomination governed by congregational polity with independent, autonomous churches, were not pre-approved or part of the agenda that was driven by resurgence leaders. Basically, if Patterson hadn't addressed it in a letter, it wasn't happening. Pressler was a bit more temperamental, screeching publicly once that "these people aren't voting the way we want them to" but later on, they managed to resolve that problem. The first time any serious changes were proposed, Wade Burleson, one of the victims of a Patterson letter-writing campaign to oust him from the IMB trustee board, was the one providing the information and making the recommendations. All of his motions were "referred to the appropriate committee" which in SBC language means "It ain't a gonna happen!".

Some of these high profile cases involve some of the inner circle of SBC megachurches and resurgence-supporting pastors. Bellevue, First Jacksonville, Second Houston. All three knowingly hired, or did not dismiss in a timely manner, individuals who committed sexual assault, one of them on multiple individuals in the same church. If the convention added "condoning by hiring or harboring and refusing to dismiss individuals who have committed sexual assault" to the reasons for disfellowshipping a congregation along with condoning homosexuality, those three churches would not now be "in full cooperation" with the SBC. The date of the initial failure of Patterson to report or properly handle the rape case at Southeastern was prior to the convention when Burleson made his motion. So the independent, autonomous nature of SBC churches is not why the SBC has failed to act on this issue.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 9149
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:10 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Sexual Misconduct

Postby Haruo » Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:17 pm

What Sandy just said. This all got a fair amount of play on BL.com back in the period when Wade and Christa were active here. Unfortunately I don't think those years are accessible any more this side of Jordan.
Haruo (呂須•春男) = ᎭᎷᎣ = Leland Bryant Ross
Repeal the language taxLearn and use Esperanto
Fremont Baptist ChurchMy hymnblog
User avatar
Haruo
Site Admin
 
Posts: 12496
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 7:21 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Sexual Misconduct

Postby Sandy » Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:02 pm

The convention and denominational structures that Southern Baptists have developed over the years have tended to inadvertently create a denominational-political hierarchy in which a few influential individuals have become "kingmakers" who operate along the lines of the Pope and College of Cardinals. That's not a unique creation of the Conservative Resurgence, by the way, it existed long before Patterson and Pressler and their cohort figured out how to get control of it. Whether it was prior to 1979 or since, the SBC leadership has not changed the way it acts. It does what it wants to do without explanation and most often not in a manner that makes much sense until you figure out who is being promoted, protected, or pushed for a position.

Protecting local church autonomy is a precious foundational principle which circumstances should not alter. If you have crossed the boundary into determining, at a denominational level, that churches which "condone homosexual behavior" by allowing LGBT persons to hold positions of spiritual leadership and ordaining them are "not in full cooperation" with the denomination, and that doing so is not a violation of their autonomy, then it is clearly not a violation of local church autonomy to dismiss a church which knowingly hires someone who has committed sexual assault. The problem is that some of the "up and comers" among the conservative resurgence who had "hitched their wagons" as I like to say to their specific kingmaker or bishop, had committed sexual assault. Apparently, by the time Wade Burleson brought this up and made his motion, there were reasons why resurgence leaders, including the "architects" themselves, did not want the convention to take any action and hid behind autonomy.

While it does seem that the SBC, at least on some levels, is getting more serious about this issue I still don't see much in the way of accountability being demanded. What it looks like is that the SBC's denominational leadership waited until it became a problem before taking any action. I still see blog posts that click their tongue a bit about the way rape cases were handled at Southeastern and Southwestern but the next paragraph is a defense of the person involved because their actions in defending inerrancy were absolutely necessary. Some alterations need to be made in stained glass windows on display at one of the seminaries before the convention's actions will be taken seriously.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 9149
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:10 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Sexual Misconduct

Postby Rvaughn » Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:58 pm

Two SBC leaders/educators advocate disfellowshipping churches that knowingly hire someone who has been convicted of, has admitted to, or has been credibly accused of sexual abuse.
2) We must remove churches from our fellowship who have knowingly hired someone who has been convicted of, has admitted to, or has been credibly accused of sexual abuse.

We must make it unambiguously clear that if a church and/or its ministers demonstrate a disregard for protecting those under their care from abuse, then we will remove that church from partnership with the Southern Baptist Convention. While we should clarify our governing documents in order to make negligence in the treatment of sex abuse cases a reason for disfellowship, we must not delay taking appropriate actions of disfellowship in the meantime.

We already possess the provision to take such action in our constitution. Article three of the constitution of the Southern Baptist Convention states, “The Convention will only deem a church to be in friendly cooperation with the Convention, and sympathetic with its purposes and work ... which: Has a faith and practice which closely identifies with the Convention’s adopted statement of faith.” In our cooperating faith statement, the Baptist Faith and Message, we have agreed to protect the abused by opposing abusive behavior and providing for victims of abuse (article XV).

Currently, disfellowship is not considered an avenue of last resort when a church either embraces the homosexual lifestyle or ordains a woman to be their pastor. Moreover, we have recently rejoiced over those who removed from fellowship churches who hold or practice racist ideology. However, we must now also begin to hold churches accountable for failing to protect their people from predators.

A church should be removed immediately from fellowship if it hires a registered sex offender or if it allows someone to remain in their ministry position after a credible allegation of abuse has been made. Each case should be duly investigated by an empowered committee of the Southern Baptist Convention, the appropriate state convention and/or the appropriate local association for immediate investigation. Responses must be given to the reporting individual(s) or entity in a timely manner.

Addressing abuse in the SBC: A proposal
User avatar
Rvaughn
 
Posts: 1044
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 4:54 pm
Location: East Texas

Re: Sexual Misconduct

Postby Rvaughn » Tue Feb 19, 2019 8:25 am

SBC president J.D. Greear says the study group on sexual abuse believes the governing documents of the SBC should amended "so that churches demonstrating “wanton disregard for sexual abuse … are not in good fellowship with this convention”." He also "called the bylaws workgroup of the administrative committee to do due diligence in reviewing the standing of the following churches mentioned in recent media reports on sexual abuse..."
10) A statement that the study group “strongly believes” the governing documents of the SBC should be reviewed and amended regarding the definition of a cooperating church, so that churches demonstrating “wanton disregard for sexual abuse … are not in good fellowship with this convention.”

Greear said the Executive Committee had affirmed a proposed constitutional amendment and would exercise existing authority to review churches that “may well have already demonstrated a lack of good standing on this issue.”

He called the bylaws workgroup of the administrative committee to do due diligence in reviewing the standing of the following churches mentioned in recent media reports on sexual abuse to determine whether they have a “faith and practice which closely identifies” with the Baptist Faith & Message:

• Arapaho Baptist Church, Garland, Texas
• Bolivar Baptist Church, Sanger, Texas
• Brentwood Baptist Church, Houston, Texas
• Cathedral of Faith, Houston, Texas
• Eastside Baptist Church, Marietta, Ga.
• First Baptist Church, Bedford, Texas
• Second Baptist Church, Houston, Texas
• Sovereign Grace Church, Louisville, Ky.
• Trinity Baptist Church, Ashburn, Ga.
• Turner Street Baptist Church, Springdale, Ark.
User avatar
Rvaughn
 
Posts: 1044
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 4:54 pm
Location: East Texas

Re: Sexual Misconduct

Postby William Thornton » Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:30 am

Further Greear quote on the ten churches listed:

“I am not calling for disfellowshipping any of these churches at this point, but these churches must be called upon to give assurances to the Southern Baptist Convention that they have taken the necessary steps to correct their policies and procedures with regards to abuse and survivors,” Greear said.
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 12224
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: Sexual Misconduct

Postby Sandy » Tue Feb 19, 2019 12:53 pm

I've seen the proposal put forth by the two seminary professors that Rvaughn referenced here. That's the best proposal I've seen put forward and it clearly doesn't violate the independence or autonomy of the local church, but I think would be effective in addressing the issue.

So here's an interesting situation. The churches involved are not SBC, but this guy was a protege, with (as I like to use the old Texas expression) his wagon hitched to some big "finger in every pie" Southern Baptist conservative resurgence mega church pastors. The proposal put forward by Professors Yarnell and Whitfield will work well as long as those with defacto influence who think they operate outside the SBC rules for everyone else don't try to use their influence to protect their proteges and sycophants.
https://www.jacksonville.com/news/metro ... ack-pulpit
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 9149
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:10 pm
Location: Chicago


Return to SBC News and Trends

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron