Resolution proposed against "social justice"

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Resolution proposed against "social justice"

Postby William Thornton » Thu May 17, 2018 6:42 am

Any member of an SBC church can propose a resolution for the annual meeting and over the years I've seen some goofy ones. Here's one proposed for this year's convention by a pastor in Texas:

SBC Social Justice Resolution

You've got to read it. The pastor is against social justice.

Naturally, secular media immediately get the thrust, even if the pastor unwittingly doesn't: Preaching social justice is 'evil,' a Southern Baptist pastor in Texas says

We probably ought to try and visualize the headlines for some of the stuff we say or propose.

The resolution doesn't have a snowflake's chance in Gehenna of being passed or even being reported out of the Committee on Resolutions.
______________

The first link above is to the militant anti-Calvinist site. The SBC extreme right wing talk show wing spends a lot of time there...which is what this, a talk show resolution.

My mod/lib friends probably miss this kind of stuff. I'm inclined to agree with the CBF in just not having resolutions at their national gatherings.
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Re: Resolution proposed against "social justice"

Postby Sandy » Thu May 17, 2018 9:47 am

So, whether or not the resolutions committee reports this out or not, the guy got his message out, tagged the Southern Baptist Convention with it, and that's a problem. Another problem is that the "secular media" and just about any other perspective other than the one reflected in the resolution, will be able to refute every point made in the resolution by citing scripture references quoting Jesus.

I agree that the committee won't let it get to the floor, but I'm not sure it would be voted down badly enough to make a statement for the SBC. A lot of conservative Evangelicals, including many Southern Baptists, think exactly like this.
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Re: Resolution proposed against "social justice"

Postby Haruo » Thu May 17, 2018 10:04 am

In a world with a reality-TV-cum-Twitter-based US President, a talk-show resolution seems pretty tame. Does the pastor in question have any idea what "social justice" can refer to, and what Jesus (not to mention Moses and the prophets) might have said on the subject? Guess I'll have to read the links and see what I think.
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Re: Resolution proposed against "social justice"

Postby Haruo » Thu May 17, 2018 10:29 am

Okay, I read some of it and even made a comment, a rarity for me on SBC sites.
Collectivism and country music
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Re: Resolution proposed against "social justice"

Postby Dave Roberts » Thu May 17, 2018 11:02 am

I guess his inerrant Bible doesn't contain Amos, Micah, or the first 11 chapters of Isaiah. :)
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Re: Resolution proposed against "social justice"

Postby Haruo » Thu May 17, 2018 12:35 pm

None of the prophets ever mentioned social justice, at least not in Holman or KJ...
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Re: Resolution proposed against "social justice"

Postby William Thornton » Thu May 17, 2018 1:59 pm

Haruo wrote:Okay, I read some of it and even made a comment, a rarity for me on SBC sites.
Collectivism and country music


Give 'em heck, Haruo.
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Re: Resolution proposed against "social justice"

Postby Sandy » Thu May 17, 2018 10:11 pm

Haruo wrote:Okay, I read some of it and even made a comment, a rarity for me on SBC sites.
Collectivism and country music



Your comment appears to be a calm moment in a storm. My first job was as a DJ at a country music station working the 8:00 pm. to 1:00 a.m. shift Friday and Saturday nights during the school year, and weeknights at the same time during the summer, so I kind of like country music. Collectivism is another matter (and how it became part of this discussion is as well).

As it turns out, there are three people in that discussion whom I happen to know personally, including the author of it. Two of them are pretty reasonable voices, and they get it. The author of the resolution doesn't. However, if this conversation is representative of the one that would take place on the convention floor if this resolution were reported, then the best thing the committee can do for the reputation of the SBC is not to report it. Doing so would be a disaster.
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Re: Resolution proposed against "social justice"

Postby Haruo » Thu May 17, 2018 11:25 pm

How's about a resolution to get SBC entities to stop using the word "love" because it's really just a code word for same-sex marriage? I know the Bible has a bunch of potentially embarrassing passages that use that word, but we could issue a Revised Holman Edition where, for example, 1 John 4:8 would clearly state, "The one who does not agoppy does not know God, because God is agoppy."
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Texas pastor is accurate

Postby Stephen Fox » Fri May 18, 2018 3:26 pm

SBC shoud own it. Just look at Criswell's history and that of Pressler, McAteer and Albert Lee Smith. Read Rough Country. SBC fundies ran all the progressives off and what's left in leadership except for alittle window dressing on occcasion by Jim Henry and weak propaganda from Russell Moore.

Read Rough Country. Baptist deacons in Bama were 80 percent behind George Wallace before he was shot. Presssler was outraged by Brown V Board of Education and it didnt take him long to find Jesse Helms and Albert Lee Smith. Everybody in Rome Georgia knows the history of West Rome Baptist Church in Jerry Vines heyday is marinated in the John Birch Society.

Bruce Gourley knows it. Wayne Flynt at Auburn knows it. Vernon Burton of Furman and Clemson, the Dean of Southern Historians on Civil War, Jim Crow and Civil Rights;Balmer at Dartmouth and Curtis Freeman at Duke.

As Criswell said You wouldn't call a chigger a chiggerow, now wudya.

Pass the darn Resolution and demonstrate some historical integrity. Get off the false narrative. Own it!!!!!!
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Re: Resolution proposed against "social justice"

Postby Dave Roberts » Fri May 18, 2018 6:28 pm

Sandy wrote:
Haruo wrote:Okay, I read some of it and even made a comment, a rarity for me on SBC sites.
Collectivism and country music



Your comment appears to be a calm moment in a storm. My first job was as a DJ at a country music station working the 8:00 pm. to 1:00 a.m. shift Friday and Saturday nights during the school year, and weeknights at the same time during the summer, so I kind of like country music. Collectivism is another matter (and how it became part of this discussion is as well).


Sandy, I didn't know that you and I shared a history in radio. I was a Saturday afternoon DJ in high school, worked the 3 to sign-off shift for an AM station while I was in college, and have done stints since those days, most of them country except for doing two stations at the same time while between churches. You learn a lot in the solitude of radio.
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Re: Resolution proposed against "social justice"

Postby Sandy » Sat May 19, 2018 10:04 am

Dave Roberts wrote:
Sandy wrote:
Haruo wrote:Okay, I read some of it and even made a comment, a rarity for me on SBC sites.
Collectivism and country music



Your comment appears to be a calm moment in a storm. My first job was as a DJ at a country music station working the 8:00 pm. to 1:00 a.m. shift Friday and Saturday nights during the school year, and weeknights at the same time during the summer, so I kind of like country music. Collectivism is another matter (and how it became part of this discussion is as well).


Sandy, I didn't know that you and I shared a history in radio. I was a Saturday afternoon DJ in high school, worked the 3 to sign-off shift for an AM station while I was in college, and have done stints since those days, most of them country except for doing two stations at the same time while between churches. You learn a lot in the solitude of radio.


I worked two years while finishing high school at the station in my hometown in Arizona. The owner of the station modernized it by adding an FM transmitter, enabling the station to remain on the air all night, which created my job and shift on the weekend. I was always amazed at how many people were listening late at night, on my shift, I took requests, and the phone rang for the whole shift. During one of my bi-vocational church ministries, I worked at a Southern Gospel station in Texas which the owner, who was an FCC attorney in Washington, DC, dubbed as "Voice of Jesus Radio," with the call letters KVOJ.
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Re: Resolution proposed against "social justice"

Postby Dave Roberts » Sat May 19, 2018 11:05 am

My wildest job was with WCVP/WCNG in Murphy, NC. WCVP was a local country with some variety programming. WCNG was an adult contemporary FM. Also read news that was fed to a second FM outlet that was 18 miles away across a mountain with the same owners. Had to be on the money time-wise to be there with news when all three stations were joined together.
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When were you in Murphy?

Postby Stephen Fox » Sun May 20, 2018 3:54 pm

I was in Hayesville thru first half of third grade 1962. Rode through town Friday on way from Bama to Upstate. When were you there? Randall Lolley's brother Tom was director of Missions for Western NC in the 80s and active with Truett Camp.

Love to hear more of your Murphy story.
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Re: When were you in Murphy?

Postby Dave Roberts » Sun May 20, 2018 4:34 pm

Stephen Fox wrote:I was in Hayesville thru first half of third grade 1962. Rode through town Friday on way from Bama to Upstate. When were you there? Randall Lolley's brother Tom was director of Missions for Western NC in the 80s and active with Truett Camp.

Love to hear more of your Murphy story.


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Re: Resolution proposed against "social justice"

Postby Tim Bonney » Sun May 20, 2018 4:58 pm

Haruo wrote:None of the prophets ever mentioned social justice, at least not in Holman or KJ...


Well, I would think "let justice roll down like waters..." and the admonitions to defend the widow and the orphan would qualify.
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Re: Resolution proposed against "social justice"

Postby linda » Mon May 21, 2018 1:31 pm

Hmm. I read the apparently offending post and a passel of the comments. If I'm not wrong, and I surely could be, the anti social justice folks are not anti justice at all. Or anti taking care of the widows and orphans, etc. They are opposed to the words "social justice" being equated not with equality for all, for not letting babies starve, and all those other GOOD things it might mean but rather having become a code word or words for pro abortion, pro gay marriage, and pro asset and income redistribution. In that sense, just as many see "Christian conservative" as some sort of next to Hitler person, many see "social justice warrior" as Marxist leftwing subterfuge.

But it is a Baptist fight, and we have finally and I suspect forever left that fold. We recently moved and fully figured to be Baptist again. You would think that with around 15 churches to pick we would have found one and settled in. But either we would literally have to cross running creeks and mud bogs, or sign on to young earth creationism, or take part in the Calvinist/Traditionalist stink, or pick some form of super fundamentalism.

We gave up. With the UMC in a turmoil tizzy at very minimum until February of 2019 we decided to just move our membership to the flavor of Wesleyan we were in the previous locale. Our beliefs have changed a bit, and we just fit better where the purpose of all this God created is to show His love and where He actively seeks the salvation of all than where there is constant in fighting and backbiting in a who is "more God's favorite than who" arrangement.

But I grew up in a place where the Methodist (pre UMC) church and SBC church both saw it that way, and worked together to see the community right with God. But not now. And that is fine. Don't think I'm any longer a misfit Baptist with Wesleyan leanings, but a conservative Wesleyan through and through.
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Re: Resolution proposed against "social justice"

Postby Dave Roberts » Mon May 21, 2018 5:00 pm

Linda, you pointed out what is often the sad reality of our conversations. People assume what the other is thinking. I can't speak for any other Baptist, but I see "social justice" as working toward the same care for all God's people, not the same money or the same levels of wealth given to everyone. However, I would work for reforms like those that would make Social Security an equal tax on all wages, not just on those who receive below the wage cap. At present, someone earning only minimum wage pays 7.65% as does his/her employer, but for someone earning $1-million per year, Social Security only takes a little under !% from employee or employer on this salary. Likewise, I see medical care as a right, not a privilege of wealth. For both of these ideas, I've had folks accuse me of thinking like a communist. I also can't see immigrants who are undocumented as "animals."
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Re: Resolution proposed against "social justice"

Postby KeithE » Tue May 22, 2018 7:53 am

Had not seen this post topic until now - don’t look at SBC items very frequently.

Kudos to William for seeing thorough this misguided resolution. But I’m surprised since William seems to object to every social justice idea I offer.

Social Justice (correctly understood) is a central theme of the Bible
https://www.openbible.info/topics/social_justice
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/christiancrier/2016/09/30/7-bible-verses-about-social-justice/

and of Jesus
https://redeeminggod.com/did-jesus-teach-social-justice/
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Re: Resolution proposed against "social justice"

Postby William Thornton » Tue May 22, 2018 10:02 am

The resolution was a talk show generalized tirade. Waste of time for the SBC and counterproductive. Your concrete proposals deserve to be rejected but not for generalized reasons.
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Re: Resolution proposed against "social justice"

Postby Sandy » Tue May 22, 2018 10:44 am

There are some false assumptions in this resolution that have been used to characterize the term "social justice" in a pretty one-sided way.

Proposed Social Justice Resolution wrote:Whereas social justice by definition is based on the anti-biblical and destructive concepts of Marxist ideology, and among other things is interested in redistributing wealth, opportunity, and privileges within society, and Whereas social justice activism should be considered evil in that it is a vehicle to promote abortion, homosexuality, gender confusion, and a host of other ideas that are antithetical to the gospel, the Christian worldview, and God’s call to holiness


That sounds like an assumption lifted right out of the rhetoric of right wing extremist media sources like Glenn Beck, Limbaugh, some of the Fox extremists like Cohen's client Hannity, and some of the minor personages. There's just an assumption that this is "social justice" without citation or reference. It's a broad field, and there are those, no doubt, who have this agenda. But the true foundation for social justice is Judaeo-Christian, much of it drawn from the Biblical text, starting with one of the strongest written statements that exists as its support, in the first part of Matthew 5. What do you do with texts like James 5:1-6, especially if you believe in an inerrant, infallible Bible that was verbally inspired and plenary in its inspiration, and intended for literal interpretation?

Proposed Social Justice Resolution wrote:Whereas social justice is deceptive, in that well-meaning Christians become unwittingly drawn into such ideology under the false assumption that social justice equates to standing up for people’s rights and compassion, and Whereas social justice is based on Marxism and Postmodernism, and should be opposed because of its anti-biblical stance and worldview, and although Christians are attempting to blend social justice with Christianity, they must realize that to accept social justice ideology is to invite liberal theology and liberation theology into our churches, schools, and institutions,


Assumptions, all. True social justice is based on the principles of scripture, and a good chunk of the conservative Evangelical religious right wing of the Republican party has spent several decades attempting to impose their own interpretation of these values on society by advocating for legislating it that way.

Proposed Social Justice Resolution wrote:Whereas Southern Baptists ought to furthermore be warned by the example of the Methodist and Episcopal denominations that have already embraced the social justice movement, and instead of growing in number, these same denominations continue to lose membership at an alarmingly fast rate,


And so, how do you explain the example of the Southern Baptist Convention, that is now losing membership at a rate that is in the same general ball park as the Methodist and Episcopal denominations? Oh, you blame it on Russell Moore.

Rather than this kind of caustic negativity, it seems that the Southern Baptist Convention would be much better off, and much more consistent with its mission and purpose as a denomination, if it took the principles from the Bible that represent God's revelation of the way human beings should relate to each other, in love and concerned for injustice, and actually defined Biblical social justice in Judaeo-Christian terms, and demonstrated its practice by being obedient to the Spirit, and ministering to people in need of it, there might actually be a revival that occurs.
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Re: Resolution proposed against "social justice"

Postby William Thornton » Tue May 22, 2018 11:13 am

The guy named Glenn Beck in his original resolution, Sandy. You are on target here.
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Re: Resolution proposed against "social justice"

Postby Sandy » Tue May 22, 2018 12:35 pm

William Thornton wrote:The guy named Glenn Beck in his original resolution, Sandy. You are on target here.


They all talk the same language, define things the same way. I did see the reference.

The pastor who proposed this has pretty much already received what he went after, and that was a high profile for this information.

It's been a long time since I was at an SBC meeting. Is the resolutions committee made up of people who see what kind of damage this can do to the SBC, or do they report it out? If they're not inclined to report it, are the parliamentary control, business meeting rules and mic monitoring tight enough to keep it from being introduced from the floor?
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Re: Resolution proposed against "social justice"

Postby Dave Roberts » Tue May 22, 2018 12:45 pm

I am really fascinated by the combining of Marxism and Post-Modernism. From most of my reading, those two seem totally antithetical. How do you read them?
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Re: Resolution proposed against "social justice"

Postby KeithE » Tue May 22, 2018 3:47 pm

William Thornton wrote:Your concrete proposals deserve to be rejected but not for generalized reasons.


My feel is your rejection of my proposals is due to:
- the very concreteness of what I suggest (e.g. 100:1 pay ratio limit within a company that wants to receive government funding) is what you object to (if so let’s discuss the number) or
- the fact that my proposals involve the “gummint” (if so read Government Is Good) or
- the fact that it comes from a religious “mod/lib” (no suggestions, except to point out this is what Grady Arnold seems to be about).
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