Will Kentucky Convention disqualify CBF churches?

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Will Kentucky Convention disqualify CBF churches?

Postby Rvaughn » Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:13 pm

Messengers to the Kentucky Baptist Convention voted Nov. 14 to authorize a standing committee to monitor moral and theological positions of the 1,800-church Fellowship and determine whether CBF congregations should be allowed to remain in good standing with the statewide affiliate of the Southern Baptist Convention.

State Baptist body weighs disqualifying CBF churches
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Re: Will Kentucky Convention disqualify CBF churches?

Postby Sandy » Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:37 pm

Just noticed this. Doesn't seem like its been that long ago that I served in a church in Kentucky, but I started there in 1992. It was an interesting experience for a Southwestern grad, to be in a state completely dominated by pastors who graduated from Southern during the Roy Honeycutt days. At the Southwestern Alumni dinner during my first state convention meeting there, I got elected as an officer. There were only 6 of us there.

It is surprising that CBF never attracted much of a following in a state where, in the 90's, the pastorates were dominated by Southern grads from the days before the resurgence gained control of their board. Comparatively, that's a small group, 45 churches out of over 2,400 statewide, and only a few of those are uniquely aligned.

This appears to be prompted by the fact that CBF is considering abandoning its restriction on hiring persons of homosexual orientation. The intricacies of Baptist polity will be interesting playing out in this, since there is the pesky issue of local church autonomy, and whether or not a Baptist body can tell a church that it can or can't cooperate based on its other, self-chosen affiliations. This isn't without precedent, either. Other state conventions have already restricted or eliminated churches which choose to affiliate with CBF, so this will just be another in what is becoming a trend.
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Re: Will Kentucky Convention disqualify CBF churches?

Postby Jon Estes » Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:18 am

Sandy wrote:Just noticed this. Doesn't seem like its been that long ago that I served in a church in Kentucky, but I started there in 1992. It was an interesting experience for a Southwestern grad, to be in a state completely dominated by pastors who graduated from Southern during the Roy Honeycutt days. At the Southwestern Alumni dinner during my first state convention meeting there, I got elected as an officer. There were only 6 of us there.

It is surprising that CBF never attracted much of a following in a state where, in the 90's, the pastorates were dominated by Southern grads from the days before the resurgence gained control of their board. Comparatively, that's a small group, 45 churches out of over 2,400 statewide, and only a few of those are uniquely aligned.

This appears to be prompted by the fact that CBF is considering abandoning its restriction on hiring persons of homosexual orientation. The intricacies of Baptist polity will be interesting playing out in this, since there is the pesky issue of local church autonomy, and whether or not a Baptist body can tell a church that it can or can't cooperate based on its other, self-chosen affiliations. This isn't without precedent, either. Other state conventions have already restricted or eliminated churches which choose to affiliate with CBF, so this will just be another in what is becoming a trend.


Isn't the Kentucky Baptist Convention an autonomous body also? Can't they, with their membership define who can and cannot be a part of that membership?

Yes - autonomy is pesky but it is not a local church banner alone.
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Re: Will Kentucky Convention disqualify CBF churches?

Postby William Thornton » Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:03 am

It may help the CBF if the KBC does this. Cuts out the fence-straddling.
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Re: Will Kentucky Convention disqualify CBF churches?

Postby Jim » Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:08 pm

I attended the first clambake of the KBF in 1991 in Winchester, Ky., after falling out with the SBC because of its position on ordaining women. My church is sort of tied to both KBF and SBC, probably as much a generational thing as anything else. A seminary on the campus of Georgetown College (about 15 minutes away) is oriented to the CBF like the one at Richmond, Virginia. The latest concerted effort by the KBF is an almost frantic campaign to get churches to hire more women pastors, thus sort of demeaning them, both women and churches (using the slogan “breaking the stain-glass ceiling”). For this, the KBF partnered with the Baptist Alliance and held special sessions and church services led by women with the predictable hyphenated last names to make sure they are recognized for their individuality. The BA is biblical anathema. The KBF a few years ago joined the Kentucky Council of Churches (micro WCCC) and thus made that organization its spokesman on all matters, putting it in the position of the mainliners regarding marriage, homosexuality and all the rest. In other words, it has started down the slippery slope of the worship of the god Diversity. My prediction is that the CBF and its affiliates will go the way of the mainliners, denominations which are not stagnating but actually entering their death throes, making Christianity as heathen as the world of entertainment. The CBF/KBF should have established its own denomination in the 1990s but its churches were too invested in the SBC going back to the 1800s, again because of the people who actually carried the freight – old codgers now. Pastors are far too invested in their jobs to attempt what would be a virtual bloodletting if they tried that now anyway. Jimmy Carter probably envisioned his NBC in 2008 as a new denomination headed by him, of course. That didn't work out. He was already on the record as favoring legal same-sex unions then so he had an uphill battle on his hands, with his main colleague, Bill Clinton, no help. I'm a relatively poor pensioner with not much to give, but it goes to missions of both Lottie Moon and the CBF as well as to Samaritan's Purse, which in the long run is certainly of more worth than the CBF in pursuing the Great Commission. The inflexibility of the SBC vis-a-vis the unmistakable high principles outlined in scripture makes it more important than any other denomination in the country, though I do not subscribe to its Calvinism. The mainline denominations in the USA are imploding spiritually much as did ancient Greece and Rome and, more recently, Europe governmentally. This is happening as the church strives to become more of the world than in it. The nation is wallowing in decadence now and dragging the church with it...or is it the other way around?
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Re: Will Kentucky Convention disqualify CBF churches?

Postby Sandy » Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:09 pm

The SBC is in an accelerating attendance and membership decline that is actually steeper than that of many mainline denominations. It's various state conventions coming up with ways to remove remaining CBF affiliated churches won't stop that problem, and in fact, subtracting their membership and money will only add to it.

A Baptist body cannot affiliate with organizations or groups on behalf of its churches. I don't know that the CBF group in Kentucky has joined the Kentucky Council of Churches, or the WCC by proxy, but if it did, that doesn't mean any of its supporting congregations have joined it. And just because the national organization is having a discussion about its policy, which currently restricts employment of persons of homosexual orientation, doesn't mean any of its supporting congregations hold the same position.
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Re: Will Kentucky Convention disqualify CBF churches?

Postby Dave Roberts » Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:36 am

I see a lot of fear here voiced by one state exec a few years ago who said that half their churches were one pastor from changing their allegiance. If that is true, then states want to make changes harder to achieve.
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Re: Will Kentucky Convention disqualify CBF churches?

Postby William Thornton » Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:58 am

Sandy wrote:The SBC is in an accelerating attendance and membership decline that is actually steeper than that of many mainline denominations. It's various state conventions coming up with ways to remove remaining CBF affiliated churches won't stop that problem, and in fact, subtracting their membership and money will only add to it.

A Baptist body cannot affiliate with organizations or groups on behalf of its churches. I don't know that the CBF group in Kentucky has joined the Kentucky Council of Churches, or the WCC by proxy, but if it did, that doesn't mean any of its supporting congregations have joined it. And just because the national organization is having a discussion about its policy, which currently restricts employment of persons of homosexual orientation, doesn't mean any of its supporting congregations hold the same position.


I assume Dave is referring to change from CBF to exclusively SBC. I'd bet that the KBC has counted the cost of doing this and has reason to believe it will help more than hurt...but who knows?
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Re: Will Kentucky Convention disqualify CBF churches?

Postby Dave Roberts » Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:45 am

William Thornton wrote:
Sandy wrote:The SBC is in an accelerating attendance and membership decline that is actually steeper than that of many mainline denominations. It's various state conventions coming up with ways to remove remaining CBF affiliated churches won't stop that problem, and in fact, subtracting their membership and money will only add to it.

A Baptist body cannot affiliate with organizations or groups on behalf of its churches. I don't know that the CBF group in Kentucky has joined the Kentucky Council of Churches, or the WCC by proxy, but if it did, that doesn't mean any of its supporting congregations have joined it. And just because the national organization is having a discussion about its policy, which currently restricts employment of persons of homosexual orientation, doesn't mean any of its supporting congregations hold the same position.


I assume Dave is referring to change from CBF to exclusively SBC. I'd bet that the KBC has counted the cost of doing this and has reason to believe it will help more than hurt...but who knows?


Being in a two-convention state, he was also encompassing moving from one state body to the other, a two-way flow in recent years.
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Re: Will Kentucky Convention disqualify CBF churches?

Postby Rvaughn » Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:06 pm

Sandy wrote:The intricacies of Baptist polity will be interesting playing out in this, since there is the pesky issue of local church autonomy, and whether or not a Baptist body can tell a church that it can or can't cooperate based on its other, self-chosen affiliations. This isn't without precedent, either. Other state conventions have already restricted or eliminated churches which choose to affiliate with CBF, so this will just be another in what is becoming a trend.
I don't see anything inherently wrong with a church affiliating with two groups if they so choose, but I also don't see anything inherently wrong with a convention or association limiting their membership in a manner to exclude those who are dually-affiliated. [I say this generically, without the consideration of whether it is biblical to form such autonomous auxiliary bodies in the first place.]
Sandy wrote:A Baptist body cannot affiliate with organizations or groups on behalf of its churches. I don't know that the CBF group in Kentucky has joined the Kentucky Council of Churches, or the WCC by proxy, but if it did, that doesn't mean any of its supporting congregations have joined it. And just because the national organization is having a discussion about its policy, which currently restricts employment of persons of homosexual orientation, doesn't mean any of its supporting congregations hold the same position.
This is correct theoretically -- supporting churches do not have to hold the same position as an organization's leadership -- but practically it is unlikely that there are no churches that hold such a position, since the leaders are chosen from the supporting congregations.
Dave Roberts wrote:I see a lot of fear here voiced by one state exec a few years ago who said that half their churches were one pastor from changing their allegiance. If that is true, then states want to make changes harder to achieve.
In my personal experience (which is quite limited) I have found that many folks at the local level aren't all that interested in their national allegiance and often go along with the preference of their pastor. (But I know some who are definitely loyal to only one group and couldn't be wedged away from them without violent force.)
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Re: Will Kentucky Convention disqualify CBF churches?

Postby Tim Bonney » Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:41 pm

William Thornton wrote:It may help the CBF if the KBC does this. Cuts out the fence-straddling.


It sounds like they will have more money to give to the CBF too. In this case getting kicked out could be a win/win. :wink:
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Re: Will Kentucky Convention disqualify CBF churches?

Postby Jim » Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:03 pm

Jim wrote:I attended the first clambake of the KBF in 1991 in Winchester, Ky., after falling out with the SBC because of its position on ordaining women. My church is sort of tied to both KBF and SBC, probably as much a generational thing as anything else. A seminary on the campus of Georgetown College (about 15 minutes away) is oriented to the CBF like the one at Richmond, Virginia. The latest concerted effort by the KBF is an almost frantic campaign to get churches to hire more women pastors, thus sort of demeaning them, both women and churches (using the slogan “breaking the stain-glass ceiling”). For this, the KBF partnered with the Baptist Alliance and held special sessions and church services led by women with the predictable hyphenated last names to make sure they are recognized for their individuality. The BA is biblical anathema. The KBF a few years ago joined the Kentucky Council of Churches (micro WCCC) and thus made that organization its spokesman on all matters, putting it in the position of the mainliners regarding marriage, homosexuality and all the rest. In other words, it has started down the slippery slope of the worship of the god Diversity. My prediction is that the CBF and its affiliates will go the way of the mainliners, denominations which are not stagnating but actually entering their death throes, making Christianity as heathen as the world of entertainment. The CBF/KBF should have established its own denomination in the 1990s but its churches were too invested in the SBC going back to the 1800s, again because of the people who actually carried the freight – old codgers now. Pastors are far too invested in their jobs to attempt what would be a virtual bloodletting if they tried that now anyway. Jimmy Carter probably envisioned his NBC in 2008 as a new denomination headed by him, of course. That didn't work out. He was already on the record as favoring legal same-sex unions then so he had an uphill battle on his hands, with his main colleague, Bill Clinton, no help. I'm a relatively poor pensioner with not much to give, but it goes to missions of both Lottie Moon and the CBF as well as to Samaritan's Purse, which in the long run is certainly of more worth than the CBF in pursuing the Great Commission. The inflexibility of the SBC vis-a-vis the unmistakable high principles outlined in scripture makes it more important than any other denomination in the country, though I do not subscribe to its Calvinism. The mainline denominations in the USA are imploding spiritually much as did ancient Greece and Rome and, more recently, Europe governmentally. This is happening as the church strives to become more of the world than in it. The nation is wallowing in decadence now and dragging the church with it...or is it the other way around?


Hope everyone and families are having a HAPPY THANKSGIVING! Here's a Psalm-based hymn for the occasion: http://www.clarkscorner.org/hymn114.pdf.
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Re: Will Kentucky Convention disqualify CBF churches?

Postby Sandy » Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:47 pm

Rvaughn wrote:I don't see anything inherently wrong with a church affiliating with two groups if they so choose, but I also don't see anything inherently wrong with a convention or association limiting their membership in a manner to exclude those who are dually-affiliated. I say this generically, without the consideration of whether it is biblical to form such autonomous auxiliary bodies in the first place.


I agree, though it is much more complicated for a convention or association, since they have to develop a way to keep track of those affiliations. In many cases, the bylaws would have to be changed to restrict church affiliations, and those generally require two thirds or three fourths majorities to approve. And on what basis does a convention or association make that choice? CBF is always a target simply because it represents a group of churches that were opposed to the direction the Southern Baptist Convention turned in 1979. The leadership has been dominated by a group of more progressive pastors and denominational leaders that were being excluded by the SBC at the time. But only a small group of CBF-affiliated churches, less than 200 our of a claimed 1,800 that at one point or another sent financial support, ever actually severed ties with the SBC, and the issues that the leadership has tried to use to distinguish itself, mainly ordination of women and calling female pastors, and a much more moderate position on GLBT leadership, have gained little traction in the churches. Most CBF churches, probably 80% of them, are "affiliated" only because they allow some members to contribute to their general fund through the church budget, so I wonder, if their state convention affiliation is on the line, how many of those Kentucky churches will simply stop allowing the pass through.

Rvaughn wrote:In my personal experience (which is quite limited) I have found that many folks at the local level aren't all that interested in their national allegiance and often go along with the preference of their pastor. (But I know some who are definitely loyal to only one group and couldn't be wedged away from them without violent force.)


That probably depends on the previous leadership of the church, and its origins. Growing up in a small town in Arizona where there were two Baptist churches, it did make a difference. A group of southerners, mostly El Paso Natural Gas Company employees from Texas and Lousiana, and some folks from Tennessee and Virginia, formed an SBC congregation in town in the mid 1950's because the First Baptist Church was ABC-USA and there were enough differences to prompt the new church start. In the early 60's, the First Baptist Church switched to the Conservative Baptist Convention. We were 20 miles from a military base, so church growth in our SBC congregation was due mainly to military personnel or civil service employees relocating to the area from Virginia and Texas when the Department of the Army moved divisions frm military bases there to Ft Huachuca. We doubled in size, and increased to over 100 in attendance when an electrical equipment manufacturing company relocated to town from Jackson, Mississippi.

Having said that, the only CBF congregation I've ever been in would be one that I would call intensely loyal to that particular organization, largely because it had pastors who were leaders of the moderate movement in the SBC and actively involved in the opposition to the conservative resurgence. Currently, I can identify twelve members of that church who are in CBF leadership positions at the national level. On the other hand, pastoral transitions leading to churches stopping their CBF contributions seems to be a problem for them in many places.
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Re: Will Kentucky Convention disqualify CBF churches?

Postby Rvaughn » Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:54 am

Jim wrote:Hope everyone and families are having a HAPPY THANKSGIVING! Here's a Psalm-based hymn for the occasion: http://www.clarkscorner.org/hymn114.pdf.
Thanks, Jim. I enjoyed the holiday. Hope you all did as well?
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