ABC Women in Ministry

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Re: ABC Women in Ministry

Postby Tim Bonney » Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:06 am

Samuel wrote:I uphold the Christian's accepted text all throught the centuries ----------- you uphold Romish and Alexanderian corrupted that were never accepted by Christians.

Why lie?

God did preserve His word and we have His words ---- God did not lie! You stand in jeopardy of blasphemey. Know ye not that the Bible is by the Holy Ghost and is God's inspired Word.

You are in danger.


Samuel,

Can I ask you a couple of questions?

1. Most Christians do not use the KJV of the Bible as their text of the Bible. Why do you suppose that is?
2. Why the KJV over other translations when the original Bible is in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek? What makes the KJV so special?
3. What scripture can you use to defend calling a fellow Christian a liar simply because he disagrees with your interpretation of scripture?
4. On what grounds can you accuse someone of blasphemy based on their opinion of a scripture translation? Are you suggesting the Bible is God?
5. Who decided what were the "accepted Christian texts" for the Bible? (You? Your local church? Your denomination? etc.)
Tim Bonney
 

Re: ABC Women in Ministry

Postby Samuel » Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:46 am

1. Most Christians do not use the KJV of the Bible as their text of the Bible. Why do you suppose that is? Uninformed and/or uneducated. Lack of reading or acknowledging history.[/b

]2. Why the KJV over other translations when the original Bible is in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek? What makes the KJV so special? [b]I read/write/speak English although I have the Greek.
The HOly Ghost identifies with Himself and dwells in me.

3. What scripture can you use to defend calling a fellow Christian a liar simply because he disagrees with your interpretation of scripture? Calling God a liar make one a liar rather than God. It is not simple interpretation as you elude to.

4. On what grounds can you accuse someone of blasphemy based on their opinion of a scripture translation? Are you suggesting the Bible is God? God promised to preserved His word. God moved upon men via the Holy Ghost and they penned God's words. So the Holy Ghost is part of the triune of God and blasphemey against the Holy Ghost is not forgiven.

5. Who decided what were the "accepted Christian texts" for the Bible? (You? Your local church? Your denomination? etc.) Christians.

I had written a long discourse on this and 'click' it disappeared. Please be honest. Gnostics of 2000 yrs of text and killing Christians by the millions did not produce credible text. Their product: NIV, RSV, NASV, etc............ Why go with known bad, corrupted, distorted false text? There is clear history for anyone wanting to read. Encylopedia Britannica is also a good source for info. May God bless and help you.
Samuel
 

Re: ABC Women in Ministry

Postby Tim Bonney » Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:57 am

Samuel wrote:1. Most Christians do not use the KJV of the Bible as their text of the Bible. Why do you suppose that is? Uninformed and/or uneducated. Lack of reading or acknowledging history.


I have a BA in Biblical Studies and a Master of Divinity and I seldom use the KJV as it is not as accurate as the NRSV, NIV, or several other modern translations. So "education" doesn't have a thing to do with it.

2. Why the KJV over other translations when the original Bible is in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek? What makes the KJV so special? I read/write/speak English although I have the Greek. The HOly Ghost identifies with Himself and dwells in me.


So you decided all on your own without the leadership of your church which translation is God's word?

3. What scripture can you use to defend calling a fellow Christian a liar simply because he disagrees with your interpretation of scripture? Calling God a liar make one a liar rather than God. It is not simple interpretation as you elude to.


I see no place where anyone called anyone else a liar here but you.

4. On what grounds can you accuse someone of blasphemy based on their opinion of a scripture translation? Are you suggesting the Bible is God? God promised to preserved His word. God moved upon men via the Holy Ghost and they penned God's words. So the Holy Ghost is part of the triune of God and blasphemey against the Holy Ghost is not forgiven.


Baloney. God did preserve his word. Just not necessarily in the King James Version of the Bible.

5. Who decided what were the "accepted Christian texts" for the Bible? (You? Your local church? Your denomination? etc.) Christians.

I had written a long discourse on this and 'click' it disappeared. Please be honest. Gnostics of 2000 yrs of text and killing Christians by the millions did not produce credible text. Their product: NIV, RSV, NASV, etc............ Why go with known bad, corrupted, distorted false text? There is clear history for anyone wanting to read. Encylopedia Britannica is also a good source for info. May God bless and help you.


Thanks, but I can find a few more authoritative sources than the encyclopedia britannica. LOL.
Tim Bonney
 

Re: ABC Women in Ministry

Postby Haruo » Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:36 am

Samuel is talking about the differences between the Textus Receptus (which he and many others believe to be the divinely protected words of the Bible, as opposed to the numerous other ancient witnesses that diverge from the TR in various ways. He is not saying (if I understand him correctly) that the KJV is the only Bible, but rather that it is the only one of the readily available English versions that is based on the TR and not contaminated by readings from the other witnesses. The notion that this is the point on which the distinction between "Christians" and non-"Christians" is to be drawn—rather than on grounds of love or trinitarian orthodoxy or profession of faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior (oops, Saviour—the Holy Ghost preserved the British spelling on that one!) is unusual in overall Christian terms, but is quite normal in not-quite-KJBO circles. I'd say it's analogous to the way some Eastern Orthodox have of asking first and foremost "where do you stand on filioque??" before deciding if fellowship should be pursued.
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Re: ABC Women in Ministry

Postby Tim Bonney » Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:41 am

Haruo wrote:Samuel is talking about the differences between the Textus Receptus (which he and many others believe to be the divinely protected words of the Bible, as opposed to the numerous other ancient witnesses that diverge from the TR in various ways. He is not saying (if I understand him correctly) that the KJV is the only Bible, but rather that it is the only one of the readily available English versions that is based on the TR and not contaminated by readings from the other witnesses. The notion that this is the point on which the distinction between "Christians" and non-"Christians" is to be drawn—rather than on grounds of love or trinitarian orthodoxy or profession of faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior (oops, Saviour—the Holy Ghost preserved the British spelling on that one!) is unusual in overall Christian terms, but is quite normal in not-quite-KJBO circles. I'd say it's analogous to the way some Eastern Orthodox have of asking first and foremost "where do you stand on filioque??" before deciding if fellowship should be pursued.


Yes Haruo but the Orthodox Church doesn't say you aren't a Christian if you don't agree with their stand on filioque.

And Samual, do you mind telling me what church you are a member of? I know of no American Baptist Church (and I served in the ABC for over 15 yeas) that teaches that the King James Bible is the only real English Bible. The American Baptist Churches is the most theologically progressive Baptist body in the US and one of the last places you'd find a Baptist that is King James only in theology.
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Re: ABC Women in Ministry

Postby Haruo » Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:54 am

ABC churches are locally autonomous, as you know, Timothy, and if one of them decides (or decided shortly before Samuel was born) to teach KJV-onlyism, perhaps as a corrective against the appearance of the RSV, there's nothing to stop them. The only question would be why they would remain in an ABC association, and the reasons for that could be quite similar to those that keep some churches in SBC associations when they would be happier elsewhere. "Supporting missions", "not upsetting our old folks who tithe", that sort of thing can work wonders. And I think it's likely, too, that if Samuel's church is in ABCUSA then his take on manuscript fidelity and the definition of "Christian" is likely quite far to the right of his church's and his saintly pastor's position on these things. Heck, his pastor, the umpteen dozenth generation of a line of saintly pastors going right back to John the Baptist ;-), may even secretly support Women in Ministry!!
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Re: ABC Women in Ministry

Postby Haruo » Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:54 am

Or maybe it's just Eastern Tennessee... ;-)
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Re: ABC Women in Ministry

Postby Tim Bonney » Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:58 am

Haruo wrote:ABC churches are locally autonomous, as you know, Timothy, and if one of them decides (or decided shortly before Samuel was born) to teach KJV-onlyism, perhaps as a corrective against the appearance of the RSV, there's nothing to stop them. The only question would be why they would remain in an ABC association, and the reasons for that could be quite similar to those that keep some churches in SBC associations when they would be happier elsewhere. "Supporting missions", "not upsetting our old folks who tithe", that sort of thing can work wonders. And I think it's likely, too, that if Samuel's church is in ABCUSA then his take on manuscript fidelity and the definition of "Christian" is likely quite far to the right of his church's and his saintly pastor's position on these things. Heck, his pastor, the umpteen dozenth generation of a line of saintly pastors going right back to John the Baptist ;-), may even secretly support Women in Ministry!!


I know Haruo it is possible. But let me say that it is highly unlikely. I can't see an ABC region finding placement for a KJVO pastor. I can't see a KJVO church participating in the region (even in the ABCs most conservative regions.)

That's why I asked. It isn't impossible but it just isn't likely.
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Re: ABC Women in Ministry

Postby Samuel » Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:03 pm

If you folk want to stand with the Gnostics and Catholics and murders - have at it. God is your judge. You know a tree by its fruit and the catholics have produced murders and gnosticism - why use their text?

Chose ye whom you will serve - I chose to serve the Lord: not the pope.
Samuel
 

Re: ABC Women in Ministry

Postby Tim Bonney » Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:09 pm

Samuel wrote:If you folk want to stand with the Gnostics and Catholics and murders - have at it. God is your judge. You know a tree by its fruit and the catholics have produced murders and gnosticism - why use their text?

Chose ye whom you will serve - I chose to serve the Lord: not the pope.


So does that mean you are unwilling to tell me which church you are a member of? And let me suggest you'd not know a gnostic if he bit you.
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Re: ABC Women in Ministry

Postby Haruo » Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:42 pm

Samuel, no one here has proposed serving the pope. The gnostics were around long before 324 (I take it you date Catholicism to Nicaea). You are coming across as pathetically eager to find fault with us, and typically (for those who post in your fashion) unwilling to engage in dialogue, debate, or reasoning. You assert "facts" with little or no documentation, many of which seem to be arrant delusional inventions and other deliberate falsifications. There is an old song (not a hymn, really, but could be adapted) about you: "[S]he is more to be pitied than censured..." Speaking of which I'm still interested in your church's hymnody. Heck, I even like studying the Jehovah's Witnesses' hymnody, and that takes some doing.
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Re: ABC Women in Ministry

Postby Samuel » Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:07 pm

Tim; why would I want to compete with a Gnostic. The Gnostics came out of Eph and John's church and also labeled as antichrist. Read it in writings of John in the Bible. See their writing in Gnostic Koine Greek texts. I suspect you claim to be Gnostic as you rely on their texts and teachings.

Haruo, I try to avoid foolish conversations and vain babbelings from the uninitiated. We use standard Baptist hymns; same from every Baptist church I've ever been in regardless if in Saudi Arabia or GA, WV, TN, AZ, TX or where it matters not. No; you are not interested in Christianity or my church. You are attempting to ridicule and belittle. I feel sorry for you. Seek first the Kingdom of God.

Here's an old hymn that many sang as they were put to death even. May you come to know Jesus the Christ as Lord.
Jehovah Tsidkenu – The name of Christ our Lord

"The Lord Our Righteousness"
-The watchword of the Reformers-

I once was a stranger to grace and to God,
I knew not my danger, and felt not my load;
Though friends spoke in rapture of Christ on the tree,
Jehovah Tsidkenu was nothing to me.

I oft read with pleasure, to soothe or engage,
Isaiah's wild measure and John's simple page;
But e'en when they pictured the blood-sprinkled tree
Jehovah Tsidkenu seemed nothing to me.

Like tears from the daughters of Zion that roll,
I wept when the waters went over His soul;
Yet thought not that my sins had nailed to the tree
Jehovah Tsidkenu- 'twas nothing to me.

When free grace awoke me, by light from on high,
Then legal fears shook me, I trembled to die;
No refuge, no safety in self could I see-
Jehovah Tsidkenu my Savior must be.

My terrors all vanished before the sweet name;
My guilty fears banished, with boldness I came
To drink at the fountain, life-giving and free-
Jehovah Tsidkenu is all things to me.

Jehovah Tsidkenu! my treasure and boast,"
Jehovah Tsidkenu! I ne'er can be lost;
In thee I shall conquer by flood and by field-
My cable, my anchor, my breastplate and shield!

Even treading the valley, the shadow of death,
This "watchword" shall rally my faltering breath;
For while from life's journey my God sets me free,
Jehovah Tsidkenu my death-song shall be.
Samuel
 

Re: ABC Women in Ministry

Postby Haruo » Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:27 pm

Samuel wrote:Here's an old hymn that many sang as they were put to death even. May you come to know Jesus the Christ as Lord.

Jehovah Tsidkenu – The name of Christ our Lord

"The Lord Our Righteousness"
-The watchword of the Reformers-

I once was a stranger to grace and to God,
I knew not my danger, and felt not my load;
Though friends spoke in rapture of Christ on the tree,
Jehovah Tsidkenu was nothing to me.
So a hymn written in English in 1837 has been sung by many as they were put to death? Again, the historical documentation is wanting. But it's a good hymn. And if I have any righteousness, Jehovah Tsidki it is indeed.

I do apologize for my tendency to make fun of you. I frankly think you ask for it, and indeed I think you are probably in the habit of seeking out forums where you can repeat the experience, telling yourself that those who make fun of you are not Christians and you are etc. etc. I don't doubt you're a Christian, but I have serious doubts about your qualifications as a student of history and scripture. I look forward to meeting you in heaven, where we'll both be ultimately sanctified and renewed by the free grace and the pricey blood of our Lord, where our respective and complementary sinful addictions will be toast and we can praise God together. See you there.
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Re: ABC Women in Ministry

Postby Samuel » Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:54 pm

Basically; I'm new to forums. It is not a good experience. I was in hopes of good fellowship and sharing while increasing in knowledge. I have traveled a lot and been on-the-go too much. I joined a KJVO forum but didn't fit in there and was shut-out (like here I guess). Plus one that was liberal and was attacked as being a KJVO. I believe God has kept all His promises and that He has preserved His word to every generation just as scripture says. I believe the GEN account. The canonized Bible is 66 books and the books of study like I & II Mac or Jashar or may be a read as well as other history books but that does not make them canonized scripture. I find it strange that Tim thinks differently as saying more than the 66 books were canonical scripture. Some people read comics.

I accepted Christ Jesus on Jan 5, 1972 and have attempted to read and study. Started manuscript evidence in 1979. I think the song goes back much further than that.

If one checks now on Christianity on a world scale; you'll see Christians being killed daily and the problem is now on this soil. There is a great falling away; fathers betraying children and children betraying parents and friends betraying friends. ~600+ earthquakes/da now. New volcanoes erupting. The sun has departed its natural 11 yr cycle first time in known history. The earth is moving on its axis or rather its axis is moving toward Moscow at a rate of acceleration progressively each year.

One may expect to hear the last trump (1Cor 15:52 ---- REV 11:15). I do not think pre-trib rapture BTW and can find no scripture to support it. I believe we're on the threshold of the rapature.

I hope you don't harbor ill feelings. I'll bid you good bye. May God bless.
Samuel
 

Re: ABC Women in Ministry

Postby Haruo » Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:32 pm

Godspeed.
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Re: ABC Women in Ministry

Postby Haruo » Sat Feb 12, 2011 5:00 pm

Just for the record, Samuel's account has been deactivated. Further conversation (?) with (?) him should be carried on by email, as he will not be able to post replies here.
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