ABC Women in Ministry

[Ed Pettibone]

[Samuel]

Titus 1:6
If any be blameless, the HUSBAND OF ONE WIFE, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.

1 Timothy 3:2
A bishop then must be blameless, the HUSBAND OF ONE WIFE, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

I do not believe a woman can qualify for the office of Bishop. Does not scripture say they should not preach. They are not premitted according the the apostle Paul; or, so I beleive it says - does it not?

[Haruo]

No, Sam, it does not. Not necessarily, anyhow. My guess is that most on this forum will disagree with you on this bit of interpretation. I personally think "SPOUSE OF ONE SPOUSE" is just as good a rendering of the Greek there. I note that you are in an ABC church, and I wonder if your take on this is general in Tennessee ABC circles, or if it's local or personal. The first to preach Christ publicly, at least in John, was a woman, and it's Paul who wrote "In Christ there is neither male nor female", too. Paul doesn't write that women should not preach in church, but that they should not speak in church, as I recall, which is a much more stringent guideline if you think that's what it means.

I should add that I am also ABC, and that my present pastor is a woman.

[Samuel]

Certainly we know that Christians are the "elect" and there is neither male nor female, Jew nor Greek - think on that. Paul in his epistles states plainly and no need for me to explain what he explained very adequately. Why should I want to change it?

Christ Jesus sent the Apostles out by two's. He Holy Ghost was given to ~120 at a time and when they spoke - who spoke. My wife will quickly tell you and every woman I've asked on this subject will tell you the women should not preach.

I think the scripture is plain on this subject. I was born again 39 yrs ago and this topic has been discussed a lot by both male and female - and in every instance women have said ----------- women should not preach. What does the scriptures say on this subject; our opinion is _____________.

[Samuel]

IF a church has abandoned 'local' church concept of NT teaching and gone 'universal' or joining the WCC and universal movement; then, I'll have to move.

If a church abandons accepted texts and goes with rejected text (Roman and Alexanderian) such as the NIV and NASV, etc..... then I would rather not be associated with them.

God has kept His promises and preserved His word down through the generations and we have it today; why reject it for Romish texts? A & B are nothing but from Eusebius ~350 AD with their orgin from Egypt.

[Haruo]

How is it that you come to be in an ABC church? You sound like you'd fit better in an ABA one. Or at least GARBC.

[Samuel]

It's an 1854 Bible believing church comprising of Christians.

I am a Christian. As such I hold to Bible truths and teachings as a NT church. We are a LOCAL church and not universal in belief like the catholics.

[Haruo]

Yes, I understand, I just wonder why this church chooses to be in fellowship with ABC when such large parts of that group are WCC-friendly. Since the love of God is universal, I wonder why you have such antipathy to efforts of churches to emulate Him. John 3:16 and 17:21, if you'd care for texts. As I have read in Proverbs, "Think globally, Act locally".

What does the WCC ask of a local church that is ungodly?

[Ed Pettibone]

[Samuel]

All NT churches were "local" churches and the Apostles taught 'local' church doctrine.

The catholic concept of 'universal' where da papa runs the show is not scriptural.

You made a false statement tried to demonize me: why? I am really finding this strange.......... you said; " I wonder why you have such antipathy to efforts of churches to emulate Him. (Him as you referenced is God)" That is an outrageous falsehood and you knew it was at the time you wrote it. Why? I think you owe me an appology; wouldn;t you agree.

[Samuel]

Bro Ed,

I have my opinion and listed what I think. I am not the know all, see all nor your judge. It interfers in no way of how I would greet you; but, I sincerely disagree.

Your Brother in Christ Jesus,

Sam

[Ed Pettibone]

[Samuel]

In that he made false statements as I re-iterated and quoted in post 26 above. It was uncalled for but he has since made amends I think.

Bro Ed; what kind of Bible do you read? I cannot go with the Romish text versions or perversions that teach false doctrine.

I know of no church that accepts women as preachers - NONE. I do not know personally anyone that accepts women preachers. It is so strange to me.
I TIM 2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, [and] lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

1Cor 14:33 For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?

37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

ICor 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?


AT THE LAST TRUMP

[Bruce Gourley]

[Samuel]

OK; you're on. How much? Why talk of those you know nothing about?

Our pastor is a good person; but, that's not enough. His dad and grand-dad and great-grand-dad and great-great-grand-dad were pastors. He was saved at age 9. He is married w/2 children both saved and one in college. He is well respected by all I know of both in and out of church and by other churches not affilated with us. And we have evangelist from other type churches or SBC and no conflicts.

Stands on the Bible as being the inspired word of God and does teach also.

[Tim Bonney]

There is a right wing group called something like "American Baptist Association" or ABA. Maybe that is Samuel's church. If so he has no ABC affiliation.

[Samuel]

Nupe; nada................... seems I'm in an ABC - I shall have to bring this up even though we are a 'local' church.

I have never seen such as this. Baptist ashamed to be Baptist and wanting everything watered down and white-washed over. For I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ for it is the power of God unto salvation.

The word is Christian as like Peter and Paul laid down their life for. It is not a social group to play footsy.

Does anyone know what Christianity is? Fruits of the spirit. Power of the Holy Ghost. God's promise to preserve His word. I thought I was on a Baptist site.

In our church we have fellowship with Independants, SBC and all Christians. Christians are part of the family of God. Christians are brothers and sisteres in Christ Jesus. Christians love one another and have and show love for one another and defend the Bible.

The Catholics are not Christian and never have been and killed Christians and folks here support their work and bibles and gnosticism............. this is beyond my understanding. I stand with Jesus. I am not of this world. I have a home in Heaven and will stand by what says the Word of God - not some papal nut in Rome.

Surely this watered down version of Christianity can't be seriously calling themselves Christian. It all seems foreign. I'm sure new to this. Grant I am a consultant engineer and did not come from a bible cementary but give me some Bible believeing backboned Christians. I've only been saved 39 yrs and have not come across such non-belief in Bible and Christianity. Hopefully I'm seeing this wrongfully. But mention accepted by centuries of Christians and get attacked. WOW

[Samuel]

Hopefully this is a joke; OK, I'm just a country boy. Somebody's gotta be pulling my leg.

I've been around the world and across the USA five time and -------- when's somebody gonna jump and say surprise.

[Tim Bonney]

[Haruo]

[Ed Pettibone]

Samuel wrote Bro Ed; what kind of Bible do you read? I cannot go with the Romish text versions or perversions that teach false doctrine.

Ed: Sam I do not even own a bible with the pope's imprinteur. And I do not confine my self to one particular version. For study the RSV is my preferred text for personal devotions the NIV. I also find the NEV helpful . And if I am having a problem locating something that I do not have total recall of, I go to the KJV which is where I did my early memory work. Oh! I almost forgot occasionally I check Helen Barret Montgomery's NT. When Paul wrote his instructions for women I am of the opinion that he was addressing specific settings. But then as some one else has already reminded you he also wrote that "In Christ there is no male or female". Of course he anticipated the second coming in his life time so saw no need to mess with the social structure he had inherited. Nor did he seem to object to Priscilla taking the lead in the extended training for Apollos. Your take makes Paul seem a bit schizophrenic if not totally inconsistent.

And Sam, I am becoming convicted that I am spending to much time with you rehashing what those of us on this board have been through on more than a few occasions.

[Haruo]

Samuel, I am interested to know what sort of hymnody is sung in your church. Do you ever sing popish hymns like "Faith of our fathers" or "There's a wideness in God's mercy" (you did know Faber was a Roman Catholic priest, didn't you, and that "Faith of our fathers" was written as a prayer to Mary to help win England back to the Roman fold?)? Perhaps at Christmas you sing cryptocatholic songs like "O little town of Bethlehem" or Unitarian ones like "It came upon the midnight clear"? Maybe you sing closet Catholic songs like "A mighty fortress is our God", or Jewish ones like "The Lord's my Shepherd, I'll not want"? Or songs by women preachers like Fanny Crosby? (Oh, yeah, I remember, she didn't preach in church as a woman, she preached in church as a blind person, that's different.)

As for Bibles, more often than not I read the Esperanto "Londona Biblio" (with the Berveling deuterocanonicals, if I'm reading a recent copy). In English I read quite a variety, with the Revised English Bible probably my current favorite. The church I'm a member of has the NIV in the pews, but I'm not much of a fan of it. I prefer the NRSV or the ESV. The King James (of 1769, of course, even though it still says 1611 on the title page, so much for verbal inerrancy ) is a great one and I'm very fond of it; when I use the blueletterbible.org online version I usually opt for KJV. At that website I often access the Greek and Hebrew texts provided (which include both TR and WH versions, and the LXX) but I'll grant I don't read those languages fluently, and mostly just look at them for individual word studies. The Londona Biblio is probably most like an 1881-85 RV text with some bits of Moffatt grafted in, if you want an English analogy.

Incidentally, one of your posts (probably a cut-and-paste from some other author, but maybe it was your own assertion) said something about how easy it was to come up with first-century biblical manuscripts. Might I ask what you're talking about? As far as I know there is no first-century New Testament manuscript known to exist today, and the only known OT manuscripts from that century would be Dead-Sea-Scroll-type recent finds unrelated to the Textus Receptus line of descent, and would fall under the same general condemnation as (in your view) the Alexandrian texts do. So here's the challenge: show me one of the manuscripts you're saying are so easy to come by.

My apologies for the thread drift (though I think Fanny Crosby tied my post firmly back to the topic ) but I am indeed interested in your responses.

[Samuel]

[Ed Pettibone]

[Samuel]

I uphold the Christian's accepted text all throught the centuries ----------- you uphold Romish and Alexanderian corrupted that were never accepted by Christians.

Why lie?

God did preserve His word and we have His words ---- God did not lie! You stand in jeopardy of blasphemey. Know ye not that the Bible is by the Holy Ghost and is God's inspired Word.

You are in danger.