ABC-USA Seminaries

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Re: ABC-USA Seminaries

Postby pastormikejordan » Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:24 am

hi Tim & Ed--Tim, just looked at your blog. Saw you were part of (or maybe becoming part of) the Order of St. Luke. I have a review of The Bible Made Impossible in an upcoming issue of Sacramental Life. (The editor was/is my predecessor in the position I have at Houghton.) Good organization, and we probably have quite a bit of connection to make, as I have been interested in all things liturgy for a while. Ed, good to hear from you too. The Wesleyan Church is interesting that way. There is definitely a "John Wesleyan" faction and a "holiness" faction (and probably a "megachurch" faction too), and sometimes it is an uneasy relationship to be sure. But I appreciate deeper connections here than I was able to make in ABC life. Blessings on you both.
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Re: ABC-USA Seminaries

Postby Tim Bonney » Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:18 am

Mike, yes I have been a member of the Order of Saint Luke since 1995. I was one of about four Baptists out of a membership of 400 mostly Methodist and Wesleyan denominational folks. I've appreciated the connection in the Order even more since becoming a United Methodist. I'll keep an eye out for the next issue of Sacramental Life!
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Re: ABC-USA Seminaries

Postby Cathy » Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:18 pm

Even this pew sitter occasional fill in pianist has thrown up her hands with Baptists. While still a CBFer at heart and a regular supporter of all things CBF, I'm checking out the ELCA, the downtown Christian church, and the Methodists. Even with a regional ABC guided search the church has chosen a Bible college graduate and apparently a sometimes student at a DTS clone. With this change there will be no local Baptist congregation with a CBF/ABC education.

I will continue in this life to send my monthly check to CBF (as my denominational home) and hope to find myself in a vicinity where those churches can be found before I die.
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Re: ABC-USA Seminaries

Postby TrudyU » Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:47 pm

Cathy wrote:Even this pew sitter occasional fill in pianist has thrown up her hands with Baptists. While still a CBFer at heart and a regular supporter of all things CBF, I'm checking out the ELCA, the downtown Christian church, and the Methodists. Even with a regional ABC guided search the church has chosen a Bible college graduate and apparently a sometimes student at a DTS clone. With this change there will be no local Baptist congregation with a CBF/ABC education.

I will continue in this life to send my monthly check to CBF (as my denominational home) and hope to find myself in a vicinity where those churches can be found before I die.


Ed: Cathy, have you heard this new pastor? While I am not a fan of DTS, In my early yeas I did attend a DTS 'want to be Bible college P/T for a year. While it was not my cup of tea (too Calvinistic and at that time,eRLY 1950'S, too anti SBC) there where students who would have fit in many of today's moderate Baptist Churches. In the ABC-USA we find many pastors with education from a much wider spectrum of schools than is true in the SBC.

I admit that I am perhaps hyper sensitive on this subject because I am convinced that my wife was not given serious consideration by some of the CBF affiliated churches where she submitted her resume simply because she had chosen to attend SOUTHERN Seminary in the midst of the takeover of that institution. It happes that most of her professors where tenured prior to the start of that takeover. Keep in mind Southern was the last of the six to fall.

In my present work with ABC churches seeking a new pastor I am more concerned with the finished product than what assembly plant they come out of. (please do not push that analogy too far) But example, we have some ABC churches that overlook some good prospects simply because the Institution from which they graduated is welcoming and affirming, and they do so, with out ever discussing the question with prospects.

I am also wondering how much this choice dictated by finances rather than theology? And btw, I am not suggesting that the two are always mutually exclusive.
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Re: ABC-USA Seminaries

Postby Cathy » Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:56 pm

I have. There are other hot button issues for me as well.

Previous church faith statement with the word inerrant and an all male elder board. The first sermon was pretty much...shame on anyone who doesn't believe in my potential. Plus it is my understanding that the church bylaws are getting a rewrite.

My daughter and I have to play Sunday. Then we'll start church shopping next week. Something I've never done before. I just went to the closest mainstream Baptist church. But extreme autonomy of individual Baptist churches has never been anything I have had a great appreciation for. I'd rather have denominational credentialing and as a minister's daughter I'd like to think the minister would have better job security. A favorite cousin was an ELCA pastor and my daughter has friends at a nearby ELCA church. So that's our first to check out.

Actually this young pastor will probably do well here as it is the most conservative county in the state. It isn't anything terribly personal from my perspective. It is simply a fairly objective decision about what I want to support.
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Re: ABC-USA Seminaries

Postby Tim Bonney » Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:39 am

Cathy wrote: I'd rather have denominational credentialing and as a minister's daughter I'd like to think the minister would have better job security. A favorite cousin was an ELCA pastor and my daughter has friends at a nearby ELCA church. So that's our first to check out.


Cathy, most certainly the ELCA and the UMC have denominational credentialing. The ABC has a good system for credentials but it only works if the local church voluntarily follows it, many don't.
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Re: ABC-USA Seminaries

Postby Haruo » Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:12 am

Cathy, by all means check out all the available options. Are you in Bozeman or someplace?
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Re: ABC-USA Seminaries

Postby Cathy » Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:00 am

Well in an odd turn of events the candidate declined the position. We will likely visit a few other churches from time to time as we should have two years ago but have some hope of a pastor with more typical denominational experience and education coming to the church.
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Re: ABC-USA Seminaries

Postby Haruo » Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:22 am

Maybe he heard there was an opening in Rome... ;-)
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Re: ABC-USA Seminaries

Postby TrudyU » Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:08 am

Ed: Cathy, given the wide diversity among ABC-USA related Seminaries do you have a preference, and from which you believe the church shold select a pastor? Or perhaps I am asking what do you consider a more typical denominational experience and education?
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Re: ABC-USA Seminaries

Postby Cathy » Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:55 am

Well to start with an education from an institution affiliated with Four Square Gospel, Open Bible, and Assembly of God is not a Baptist education. And coming from a church that has an all male elder board is not exactly what I consider a good match with a church that is happy with and supportive of women in ministry. I asked the moderator yesterday if any women had been considered and he suggested that no women's names had been sent from the regional office.

I'm sorry you seem offended by my desire that this church remain the only progressive Baptist church in the county.
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Re: ABC-USA Seminaries

Postby Haruo » Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:45 pm

Cathy wrote:Well to start with an education from an institution affiliated with Four Square Gospel, Open Bible, and Assembly of God is not a Baptist education. And coming from a church that has an all male elder board is not exactly what I consider a good match with a church that is happy with and supportive of women in ministry. I asked the moderator yesterday if any women had been considered and he suggested that no women's names had been sent from the regional office.

I'm sorry you seem offended by my desire that this church remain the only progressive Baptist church in the county.

I don't know this for sure, but my strong impression is that the ABCNW regional organization has become less than welcoming of women in ministry; I know there are some prominent churches in it in Western Washington that have all-male elder boards, etc., and I think they took the exodus of the Evergreen churches as an opportunity to become more directive of regional matters than they could while Seattle was in the mix.
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Re: ABC-USA Seminaries

Postby TrudyU » Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:34 am

Haruo wrote:
Cathy wrote:Well to start with an education from an institution affiliated with Four Square Gospel, Open Bible, and Assembly of God is not a Baptist education. And coming from a church that has an all male elder board is not exactly what I consider a good match with a church that is happy with and supportive of women in ministry. I asked the moderator yesterday if any women had been considered and he suggested that no women's names had been sent from the regional office.

I'm sorry you seem offended by my desire that this church remain the only progressive Baptist church in the county.


I don't know this for sure, but my strong impression is that the ABCNW regional organization has become less than welcoming of women in ministry; I know there are some prominent churches in it in Western Washington that have all-male elder boards, etc., and I think they took the exodus of the Evergreen churches as an opportunity to become more directive of regional matters than they could while Seattle was in the mix.


Ed: And Cathy what have I said that makes you think what I am offended that your church wants to remain progressive ? That is not in fact my concern. But I do hope that if it is the only the "only" progressive church in the county that they will find a pastor that has discernment about what is and is not progressive. Hiring a woman is not an immediate guarantee of that. I have also suggested that the the educational institution that a given individual attends does not of necessity define that individuals thinking and practice.

And Haruo, It could simply be be that the Regional office has no names of women whose profiles match the profile of Linda's Church. I am working with a great Church that simply can not meet the financial needs of available pastors who meet their needs and wants. And then for some there is that long time problem problem of wanting a young pastor with a PhD (No, D.Min.) who has new ideas, and 25 years of experience in at least 3 churches exactly like theirs. :brick:
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Re: ABC-USA Seminaries

Postby Tim Bonney » Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:14 am

Ed are you aware that you are using your wife's account?
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Re: ABC-USA Seminaries

Postby TrudyU » Wed Mar 06, 2013 7:30 am

Tim Bonney wrote:Ed are you aware that you are using your wife's account?


Ed: Yes Tim. I do know what I am doing. in fact, as I identified in each of my post for at least a week, I am using her computer. (which I very much dislike) I do not have my BL.C password stored on this machine and mine needs to go to the shop .
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Re: ABC-USA Seminaries

Postby Tim Bonney » Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:30 am

OK Ed. If you are able to check your email it is possible to get your password sent to you by the system.
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Re: ABC-USA Seminaries

Postby Haruo » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:08 pm

Yeah, or any of us moderators can send it to you (or change it, at your request, to something you can remember), Ed.
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Re: ABC-USA Seminaries

Postby Haruo » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:09 pm

Tim Bonney wrote:OK Ed. If you are able to check your email it is possible to get your password sent to you by the system.

Yes, but only if you have access to your email, which he perhaps hasn't.
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Re: ABC-USA Seminaries

Postby Tim Bonney » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:15 pm

Haruo wrote:
Tim Bonney wrote:OK Ed. If you are able to check your email it is possible to get your password sent to you by the system.

Yes, but only if you have access to your email, which he perhaps hasn't.


Yes, that is a possibility. It is one of the reasons I like web mail accounts. You can check them at any computer. (If you remember your email password of course as well.)
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Re: ABC-USA Seminaries

Postby TrudyU » Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:39 pm

Ed: Are you fellows having fun with you off topic conversation about passwords. But no I do not have my e-mail on this machine. Trudy and I do use The same Gmail account. I do not however wishh to change my Bl.C password until I am back on my machine.

And Tim, since you nor I, are moderators on this site any longer why get your bowels set over process.

I hope Cathy is still here. and will pardon the interruptions :)
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Re: ABC-USA Seminaries

Postby Tim Bonney » Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:49 pm

TrudyU wrote:Ed: Are you fellows having fun with you off topic conversation about passwords. But no I do not have my e-mail on this machine. Trudy and I do use The same Gmail account. I do not however wishh to change my Bl.C password until I am back on my machine.

And Tim, since you nor I, are moderators on this site any longer why get your bowels set over process.

I hope Cathy is still here. and will pardon the interruptions :)


I was trying to be helpful and thought you might really want to use your own account. Excuse me. I'll not do it again.
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Re: ABC-USA Seminaries

Postby Neil Heath » Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:13 pm

I attempted to remove the last 3 posts from Cathy, Haruo and Timothy because they appeared twice. Since they were duplicates I deleted them, which I have done before, but both copies disappeared. My apologies to the posters involved.

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Re: ABC-USA Seminaries

Postby Tim Bonney » Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:22 pm

Neil Heath wrote:I attempted to remove the last 3 posts from Cathy, Haruo and Timothy because they appeared twice. Since they were duplicates I deleted them, which I have done before, but both copies disappeared. My apologies to the posters involved.

Neil


Not a problem for me Neal. :D
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Re: ABC-USA Seminaries

Postby Cathy » Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:59 pm

Haruo wrote:Maybe he heard there was an opening in Rome... ;-)


I think it was in a nearby college town rather than across the sea. Or did you mean Rome, GA? I believe the candidate will likely be the new pastor of a larger ABCNW church where he was speaking today.

Harou, I have spoken to several people since your suggestion that ABCNW has leaned in a more conservative direction since the separation from Evergreen and it clearly seems that is the case. There is a balance that has been lost.

One could wonder if this part of the country is generally more conservative (not more conservative than Texas in my experience). If there are five ELCA churches, and other liberal denominations doing well in this county there must be a niche for a progressive Baptist church. If you look at Baptists in our area you find several KJV only churches that are specific about what KJ version. You have Chuck Baldwin of the Oathkeepers and his "Fellowship" not to mention several other decidedly fundamentalist churches with specific Fundamentalist affiliations proudly advertised. I think to the extent that branding matters and if filling a specific "niche" is healthy for a Baptist church one would do well to fill the progressive niche here in this place and this time.

So in my mind if a young minister presently studying in an institution that is distinctly conservative or fundamentalist has chosen that institution when other more progressive options were locally available one can assume they are not the best choice to pastor a progressive Baptist church.

No problem with the deletion of the previous posts. It is with some concern that I am speaking of these local issues in such an open forum. I certainly do not wish to alienate myself from friends or do harm to a fellowship of christians. May I say our service today was quite miraculous. There was no where else that I would have wanted to be. It wasn't so much for the sermon (though it was ably delivered by a woman) as the body of believers and the reflections on the struggles and triumphs of the last year. No one seemed to regret that someone called by unanimous vote had declined the invitation to pastor this church.

Certainly my intrusion into this thread is probably not entirely appropriate. Although it has some bearing on the original topic. There are some who feel an education in an institution with denominational affiliation is of value. Maybe of equal value is an education from an institution with recognized academic integrity that educates ministers of many denominations. At the same time I appreciate that ministers may travel many paths on the way to a mature theology that could differ greatly from the institution from which they received their degree. In which case I think they would be able to explain the road they have taken to their present understanding.
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Re: ABC-USA Seminaries

Postby Haruo » Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:33 am

Evergreen has fairly significant relationships, one way or another, with three quite different seminaries: ABSW in Berkeley, Fuller in Seattle (extension of the one in Pasadena), and Seattle University (Jesuit-led, multidenominational). Most of our new ordinands come from one or another of these three.
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