ABC-USA Seminaries

[Blake]

As one who has no familiarity with ABC structure and history I wanted to ask those who are in that denomination what the reputations of your various seminaries are? I would think that a Baptist denomination that's as theologically diverse as the ABC seems would have seminaries that have reputations for being more conservative or liberal in their theology or for churning out pastors of particular persuasions and in/capabilities.

[Haruo]

I'm more familiar with what I'd guess are the more liberal ones, particularly ABSW (Berkeley) and Andover-Newton.

[Blake]

What are the enrollment figures for the different seminaries? Which ones are getting the most use by American Baptists? Does the common American Baptist desire to go to their denomination's seminaries, go elsewhere or go some place close to home?

[Haruo]

Here in the Evergreen Region our new ordinands are a mix of, for the most part, ABSW, Fuller, and Seattle University (which is an ecumenical seminary in a Jesuit university). And speaking of what Timothy just mentioned, just as many ABC churches are dually (or multiply) aligned, so are our seminaries. I think ABSW (that's American Baptist Seminary of the West; when my dad got his BD there in the forties, it was BBDS: Berkeley Baptist Divinity School) is closely affiliated with the Progressive National Baptist Convention as well as ABC, and of course it is also part of the GTU, so it has ties to everybody from the Unitarians to the Episcopalians to the Catholics to the Methodists (the Seattle University outfit is a sort of attempt to produce a small local GTU; I think there are seven or eight denominations, including even the Community of Christ [Reorganized LDS to us oldsters], that are involved in it, and [through UCC] it has a strong MCC contingent, too). The Catholics, at least locally, don't seem to mind.

[Ed Pettibone]

Northern Baptist Theological in the Chicago area has a conservative reputation as does Palmer in Pennsylvania. As Hauro has mentioned, Rochester, Andover Newton, and Berkley are considered more liberal. Central is pretty middle of the road by reputation.

Ed: However one of the most conservative ABC-USA pastors with whom I am acquainted is a graduate of Rochester. And the one sermon that I heard 2 years ago by a female student in their chapel was simply good Biblical exegesis. Campolo is all over the spectrum and he is an Eastern (now Palmer) grad from the mid 1950's. Central in Kansas city would be on the left end of the moderate classification. I am a bit surprised that Tim did not mention that many ABC-USA pastors did not attend any Baptist seminary and many like himself and my wife who started their careers in Ohio, Indiana and many in Illinois attended The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville. By the way unlike most of the other schools mentioned here ABSW at Berkly's student body is primarily black 72%. However most of the school mentioned do have significant numbers of black students. I have a notion that Berkly's "reputation" come from their location and a strong emphasis on "Liberation Theology" which in my estimation some times gets a bum rap due in part to some of it proponents rather than its content. There are a couple more predominantly Black seminaries affiliated with ABC that sadly I am not familiar with Also many of our Cooperative Baptist Fellowship (aka CBF) leaders have elected to do additional grad work at Andover Newton when on Sabbaticals.

[Big Daddy Weaver]

I've visited Graduate Theological Union a few times in recent years. A good friend - who is an Associate Pastor at an ABC-USA congregation the Bay area - just finished her PhD at GTU and taught classes at ABSW.

ABSW itself is a pretty small school with only 50-60 FTE. Of the nine seminaries that comprise GTU, ABSW *may* be the smallest - not sure. GTU has a total of 1300 students. Nice place; large LGBT student population and significant emphasis on queer and womanist theology.

[Haruo]

I am a bit surprised that Tim did not mention that many ABC-USA pastors did not attend any Baptist seminary {1} […] By the way unlike most of the other schools mentioned here ABSW at Berkly's student body is primarily black 72%. {2} However most of the school mentioned do have significant numbers of black students. I have a notion that Berkly's "reputation" come from their location and a strong emphasis on "Liberation Theology" which in my estimation some times gets a bum rap due in part to some of it proponents {3} rather than its content.

{1}Tim didn't, but I did. Neither Fuller (I assume people knew this) nor Seattle U (I explained its nature and location) is ABC, or Baptist of any stripe. Okay... now this is TIC ...maybe the way we work it in Evergreen is the Euros go to Fuller, the Blacks to Berkeley, and the Asians to Seattle U.
{2} Perhaps I should have mentioned that the PNBC is a predominantly Black denominational grouping, and generally to the left of the other Black NBCs
{3} Such as Jeremiah Wright? I didn't make it down to MLK's revival, and am awaiting word on how it went.

[Ed Pettibone]

Actually I believe I did say so Ed. I said that people tend to go to the seminary they care closest too. That isn't necessarily or even usually an ABC church. I also mentioned that ABC folks are most interested in a mainline seminary. The ABC is just one of the seven sister of the mainline.

Ed: Tim you and Haruo did both say so some time after your first post which I was the only one I had read when I started my reply. I was doing several other task this morning Breakfast Laundry Meds, googling for information ect. With Trudy off on a TIM retreat and a fellow coming to hang new custom drapes at noon and getting ready to go out this evening with John and Anna Hershey who are members of our church. John is the author of Cryptography Demystified http://www.mhprofessional.com/product.p ... 0071406387 which is the book I asked KeithE & Jonathan about (Has to do with engineering. No slight intended just attempting to provide added information for Blake, to the one post in the thread that I had seen. And TIm I mentioned you specifically because you have made that point in other threads that is why I was surprised that you had not mentioned it in your first post. Gee you guys are touchy today.

[Mike Stidham]

Northern Baptist Theological in the Chicago area has a conservative reputation as does Palmer in Pennsylvania. As Hauro has mentioned, Rochester, Andover Newton, and Berkley are considered more liberal. Central is pretty middle of the road by reputation.

Any more, Central is a joint ABC/CBF seminary under Dr. Marshall's stewardship.

My pastors (we have a married couple serving) are from Palmer and are very conservative, so I can speak for those two. As for the others, I am new to the ABCUSA and am not sure about the rest.

[Ed Pettibone]

Northern Baptist Theological in the Chicago area has a conservative reputation as does Palmer in Pennsylvania. As Hauro has mentioned, Rochester, Andover Newton, and Berkley are considered more liberal. Central is pretty middle of the road by reputation.

Any more, Central is a joint ABC/CBF seminary under Dr. Marshall's stewardship.

My pastors (we have a married couple serving) are from Palmer and are very conservative, so I can speak for those two. As for the others, I am new to the ABCUSA and am not sure about the rest.

Ed: And Mike where would you place Molly on the Liberal, Moderate, Conservative, Fundamentalist Spectrum. Trudy and I used to occasionally visit the Sunday school class that she taught at Deer Park in Louisville. You may know that central was at one time Northern Bapt (ABC) and Southern Baptist prior to the creation of The SBC's Midwestern Seminary in KC in 1957.

I will also point out that most of the So. Bapt. with whom I am acquainted would challenge the idea that a couple sharing a pastorate could be "very" conservative.

[Mike Stidham]

Ed: And Mike where would you place Molly on the Liberal, Moderate, Conservative, Fundamentalist Spectrum. Trudy and I used to occasionally visit the Sunday school class that she taught at Deer Park in Louisville. You may know that central was at one time Northern Bapt (ABC) and Southern Baptist prior to the creation of The SBC's Midwestern Seminary in KC in 1957.

I will also point out that most of the So. Bapt. with whom I am acquainted would challenge the idea that a couple sharing a pastorate could be "very" conservative.

Not knowing much about Molly personally, I'm hesitant to place her on the spectrum. I know her only by the character assassination performed upon her as she was leaving Louisville.
And yes, my SBC brethren would have a cow at a married couple co-pastoring for sure. The wife told me that in seminary, they were always trying to get her to read feminist theology to "turn" her. She said, "But all I wanted to do was preach!"

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: And Mike where would you place Molly on the Liberal, Moderate, Conservative, Fundamentalist Spectrum. Trudy and I used to occasionally visit the Sunday school class that she taught at Deer Park in Louisville. You may know that central was at one time Northern Bapt (ABC) and Southern Baptist prior to the creation of The SBC's Midwestern Seminary in KC in 1957.

I will also point out that most of the So. Bapt. with whom I am acquainted would challenge the idea that a couple sharing a pastorate could be "very" conservative.

Not knowing much about Molly personally, I'm hesitant to place her on the spectrum. I know her only by the character assassination performed upon her as she was leaving Louisville.
And yes, my SBC brethren would have a cow at a married couple co-pastoring for sure. The wife told me that in seminary, they were always trying to get her to read feminist theology to "turn" her. She said, "But all I wanted to do was preach!"

Ed: Mike when she says "they were always trying to get her to read feminist theology to 'turn' her". Keeping in mind that she was at Palmer what do you understand to be the meaning of, to "turn her" ?

Note; it is a struggle for me not to attempt to answer my own question. What I will say, is that I see Dr. Marshall as a very astute Theologian, who happens to be female but she is not mad about either status. She does when appropriate, display what I see as righteous indignation over how she was treated by those who participated in the "character assassination" that you reference above.

[Mike Stidham]

Ed: And Mike where would you place Molly on the Liberal, Moderate, Conservative, Fundamentalist Spectrum. Trudy and I used to occasionally visit the Sunday school class that she taught at Deer Park in Louisville. You may know that central was at one time Northern Bapt (ABC) and Southern Baptist prior to the creation of The SBC's Midwestern Seminary in KC in 1957.

I will also point out that most of the So. Bapt. with whom I am acquainted would challenge the idea that a couple sharing a pastorate could be "very" conservative.

Not knowing much about Molly personally, I'm hesitant to place her on the spectrum. I know her only by the character assassination performed upon her as she was leaving Louisville.
And yes, my SBC brethren would have a cow at a married couple co-pastoring for sure. The wife told me that in seminary, they were always trying to get her to read feminist theology to "turn" her. She said, "But all I wanted to do was preach!"

Ed: Mike when she says "they were always trying to get her to read feminist theology to 'turn' her". Keeping in mind that she was at Palmer what do you understand to be the meaning of, to "turn her" ?

Note; it is a struggle for me not to attempt to answer my own question. What I will say, is that I see Dr. Marshall as a very astute Theologian, who happens to be female but she is not mad about either status. She does when appropriate, display what I see as righteous indignation over how she was treated by those who participated in the "character assassination" that you reference above.

In the context of the conversation, I would say she said it to mean that she had no interest in feminist theology or the assumption that as a woman seminarian, she was presumed to already be a feminist. We were talking about the very liberal theology of the seminary I attend, which is connected with the UCC.

As for Marshall, the way they treated her in Louisville, I wouldn't blame her for any indignation she displays, righteous or otherwise. It was a crying shame what many in the SBC Conservative Resurgence did to people they deemed in the opposition. I appreciate the "attempt to answer your own question" in this case, since it gives me far more context than I had. There were a lot of good, solid people of both genders who suffered at the hands of the CR.

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: Mike when she says "they were always trying to get her to read feminist theology to 'turn' her". Keeping in mind that she was at Palmer what do you understand to be the meaning of, to "turn her" ?

Note; it is a struggle for me not to attempt to answer my own question. What I will say, is that I see Dr. Marshall as a very astute Theologian, who happens to be female but she is not mad about either status. She does when appropriate, display what I see as righteous indignation over how she was treated by those who participated in the "character assassination" that you reference above.

Mike

In the context of the conversation, I would say she said it to mean that she had no interest in feminist theology or the assumption that as a woman seminarian, she was presumed to already be a feminist. We were talking about the very liberal theology of the seminary I attend, which is connected with the UCC.

As for Marshall, the way they treated her in Louisville, I wouldn't blame her for any indignation she displays, righteous or otherwise. It was a crying shame what many in the SBC Conservative Resurgence did to people they deemed in the opposition. I appreciate the "attempt to answer your own question" in this case, since it gives me far more context than I had. There were a lot of good, solid people of both genders who suffered at the hands of the CR.

Ed Mike I agree 100% that "There were a lot of good, solid people of both genders who suffered at the hands of the CR."

And I will say my wife has felt something of the same type of pressure from some fellow students while at SBTS when it was undergoing the purge brought about by the Take Over, aka, the CR .

However I found it strange when you wrote of Palmer as being very conservative and then told us about this Female pastor who while a student there, felt that she had been pressured to accept feminist theology, which is generally not considered to be conservative. Or did I misunderstand something?

[Mike Stidham]

Ed: Mike when she says "they were always trying to get her to read feminist theology to 'turn' her". Keeping in mind that she was at Palmer what do you understand to be the meaning of, to "turn her" ?

However I found it strange when you wrote of Palmer as being very conservative and then told us about this Female pastor who while a student there, felt that she had been pressured to accept feminist theology, which is generally not considered to be conservative. Or did I misunderstand something?

Perhaps then my pastors are conservative in SPITE of Palmer!

[Tim Bonney]

The situation as I saw it with Dr. Marshall was that she committed two "sins" fundamentalists can't overlook. She was a smart woman Christian leader and she was right.

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: Mike when she says "they were always trying to get her to read feminist theology to 'turn' her". Keeping in mind that she was at Palmer what do you understand to be the meaning of, to "turn her" ?

However I found it strange when you wrote of Palmer as being very conservative and then told us about this Female pastor who while a student there, felt that she had been pressured to accept feminist theology, which is generally not considered to be conservative. Or did I misunderstand something?

Perhaps then my pastors are conservative in SPITE of Palmer!

Ed: Mike,I do believe Palmer and Northern are more Moderate than say Andover Newton and Rochester. Yet I know some pastors who are alumni of all four institutions who do not reflect the schools reputations for Theological positioning. Therefore I can not speak to the positioning your pastors based on a single issue. I know a graduate of Rochester who is the most conservative (close to fundamentalist) ABC pastor with whom I am acquainted. I have known graduates of Northern I consider to be rather Liberal.

Personally I do not consider an aversion to "Feminist Theology" in itself to be "Very conservative" nor do I consider Feminist Theology to be all Liberal, as do some of my conservative friends. When it comes women in ministry I consider my self to be an egalitarian, which many folk do consider liberal, to me that is their problem, unless and until they attempt to force it on me or mine.

[Mike Stidham]

Ed: Mike when she says "they were always trying to get her to read feminist theology to 'turn' her". Keeping in mind that she was at Palmer what do you understand to be the meaning of, to "turn her" ?

However I found it strange when you wrote of Palmer as being very conservative and then told us about this Female pastor who while a student there, felt that she had been pressured to accept feminist theology, which is generally not considered to be conservative. Or did I misunderstand something?

Perhaps then my pastors are conservative in SPITE of Palmer!

Ed: Mike,I do believe Palmer and Northern are more Moderate than say Andover Newton and Rochester. Yet I know some pastors who are alumni of all four institutions who do not reflect the schools reputations for Theological positioning. Therefore I can not speak to the positioning your pastors based on a single issue. I know a graduate of Rochester who is the most conservative (close to fundamentalist) ABC pastor with whom I am acquainted. I have known graduates of Northern I consider to be rather Liberal.

Personally I do not consider an aversion to "Feminist Theology" in itself to be "Very conservative" nor do I consider Feminist Theology to be all Liberal, as do some of my conservative friends. When it comes women in ministry I consider my self to be an egalitarian, which many folk do consider liberal, to me that is their problem, unless and until they attempt to force it on me or mine.

Well, I'd probably say there's a difference between "egalitarian" (which I have no problems with) and "feminist". Were it not for women pastors, I wouldn't be in seminary today. It's the feminists I've run into here at seminary, who want to place all the ills of the world on the backs of men, that I have trouble with.

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed from previous post: Mike when she (your Female Co-pastor) says "they were always trying to get her to read feminist theology to 'turn' her". Keeping in mind that she was at Palmer what do you understand to be the meaning of, to "turn her" ?

I found it strange when you wrote of Palmer as being very conservative and then told us about this Female pastor who while a student there, felt that she had been pressured to accept feminist theology, which is generally not considered to be conservative. Or did I misunderstand something?

Mike

Perhaps then my pastors are conservative in SPITE of Palmer!

Ed: Mike,I do believe Palmer and Northern are more Moderate than say Andover Newton and Rochester. Yet I know some pastors who are alumni of all four institutions who do not reflect the schools reputations for Theological positioning. Therefore I can not speak to the positioning your pastors based on a single issue. I know a graduate of Rochester who is the most conservative (close to fundamentalist) ABC pastor with whom I am acquainted. I have known graduates of Northern I consider to be rather Liberal.

Personally I do not consider an aversion to "Feminist Theology" in itself to be "Very conservative" nor do I consider Feminist Theology to be all Liberal, as do some of my conservative friends. When it comes women in ministry I consider my self to be an egalitarian, which many folk do consider liberal, to me that is their problem, unless and until they attempt to force it on me or mine.[/quote]

Mike

Well, I'd probably say there's a difference between "egalitarian" (which I have no problems with) and "feminist". Were it not for women pastors, I wouldn't be in seminary today. It's the feminists I've run into here at seminary, who want to place all the ills of the world on the backs of men, that I have trouble with.

Ed: I know Mike, I have also run into that type of Feminist seminarians and pastors, they are the ones I was thinking of when I described what in my view Molly Marshall is and is not by saying "I see Dr. Marshall as a very astute Theologian, who happens to be female but she is not mad about either status". Yet in my experience
not all feminist, nor do all feminist Theologians play the males are to blame for all the ills of the world game.

[Mike Stidham]

Mike

It's the feminists I've run into here at seminary, who want to place all the ills of the world on the backs of men, that I have trouble with.

Ed: I know Mike, I have also run into that type of Feminist seminarians and pastors, they are the ones I was thinking of when I described what in my view Molly Marshall is and is not by saying "I see Dr. Marshall as a very astute Theologian, who happens to be female but she is not mad about either status". Yet in my experience
not all feminist, nor do all feminist Theologians play the males are to blame for all the ills of the world game.

Note the phrase "here at seminary". The ones we have here are the radical variety, who hammer us about our "male privilege". They're mad about everything.

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: I think we are saying essentially the same thing, there are radical feminist and rational feminist.

[Mike Stidham]

Ed: I think we are saying essentially the same thing, there are radical feminist and rational feminist.

Bingo.

[pastormikejordan]

hey--been forever since I've been on. Like Tim, I sort of lost patience with complete church autonomy and am in process of transferring my ordination to a more connectional Arminian denomination--in my case, the Wesleyan Church which is big in western NY where we live now. Still check in occasionally here.

Reason for posting here was that I'm a Palmer grad (back when it was still Eastern BTS, in 2002). Surprised that it has a reputation as a conservative seminary, though of course it depends on one's vantage point. It is more conservative than ANTS, CRCDS or ABSW, but I think to the left of Northern. It always has had a strong justice bent, due to folks like Ron Sider and ESA, but those folks are taken to task by both left and right these days. It has an extension in WV, and I know students there tended to be far more conservative than those of us on the main campus, so maybe I'm just surprised the school as a whole is thought of as conservative.

[Tim Bonney]

Mike,

Nice to hear from you! As you say, where a seminary is on the theological spectrum depends on where you on standing but also sometimes what programs and emphases you are looking at.

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: Hi Mike, it is good to hear from you, sorry ABC -USA is loosing you but if you have to go some where the Wesleyans church isn't a bad way to go. Despite the name , don't know if you have seen me chide TB about his "venation" of J.W.. For a few years I attended the Singles group at the Wesleyan Church in Marion, Indiana when their denominational HQ was still there. During that time I never heard the Name John Wesley from any or all of them as much as I have heard from Tim since his move. Have to get to Associational advisory board meeting.