Thanks to BT Editor -John Pierce

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Thanks to BT Editor -John Pierce

Postby Ed Pettibone » Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:46 am

Ed Pettibone: It was good to the smiling face of A Roy Medley on page 8 of the print edition of the June edition of Baptist Today. It was even better to read Dr. Medley's article on " What Makes Baptist Different " in the series "Street questions about Baptist" in celebration of the 400th Anniversary of Baptist.

In one place Dr. Medley speaking of our ancestors, writes "Baptist where inspired to emphasize the personal (not private) nature of faith as they read of God's promise of a new Covenant 'written on the heart' so that 'all know me from the least to the greatest' (Jer. 31:31-34), as they where moved by the profoundly Personal affirmations of faith in the Psalms 9e.g., Ps.139 as they were moved touched by the ministry of Jesus with individuals and as they were convicted by the testimony of the New Testament to the importance of faith that is personal. "

He gives several examples of how theis "Personal Faith" has played out in Baptist life over the centuries.

To me the parenthetical emphases when he writes "Baptist where inspired to emphasize the personal (not private) nature of faith..." was the most cogent of many great points.
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Re: Thanks to BT Editor -John Pierce

Postby David Flick » Tue Jun 02, 2009 9:40 pm

John continually writes the best editorials in the country. I appreciated Southern Baptists and eventual evangelism. I wish that my former SBC colleagues and friends in Oklahoma, including the Executive Director, would read this. But alas, most will never see it...
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Re: Thanks to BT Editor -John Pierce

Postby Big Daddy Weaver » Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:01 pm

Sandy didn't particularly care for Johnny's op-ed that you reference, David.

See: Two Steps Backward for Baptists Today

His blog post is built on a false dichotomy which is that moderate Baptists can't continue to create a new identity and cooperate with other Baptists as long as moderate Baptist publications are, on occasion, critical of SBCers and SBC endeavors.

I would argue that if Johnny ignored the SBC or only heaped false praise on the SBC, he'd be doing a lousy job as the editor of a Baptist publication. Those moderates who write about Baptists (books, newspapers, magazines, journals, blogs, etc.) can't ignore the SBC. In fact, I believe that it is often necessary for moderate Baptists to invoke Southern Baptists and the Southern Baptist Convention in the public arena in order to distinguish a centrist/progressive Baptist identity from a fundamentalist Baptist identity.

Sometimes the Southern Baptist Convention needs lambasting....
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Re: Thanks to BT Editor -John Pierce

Postby Ed Pettibone » Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:18 pm

Big Daddy Weaver wrote:Sandy didn't particularly care for Johnny's op-ed that you reference, David.

See: Two Steps Backward for Baptists Today

His blog post is built on a false dichotomy which is that moderate Baptists can't continue to create a new identity and cooperate with other Baptists as long as moderate Baptist publications are, on occasion, critical of SBCers and SBC endeavors.

I would argue that if Johnny ignored the SBC or only heaped false praise on the SBC, he'd be doing a lousy job as the editor of a Baptist publication. Those moderates who write about Baptists (books, newspapers, magazines, journals, blogs, etc.) can't ignore the SBC. In fact, I believe that it is often necessary for moderate Baptists to invoke Southern Baptists and the Southern Baptist Convention in the public arena in order to distinguish a centrist/progressive Baptist identity from a fundamentalist Baptist identity.

Sometimes the Southern Baptist Convention needs lambasting....


Ed: Please note this thread was started for the expressed purpose of Thanking John P. for inviting Dr. Medley General Secretary of the ABC-USA, the denomination of Baptist to whom this forum is primarily directed, to participate in the series "Street questions about Baptist" in celebration of the 400th Anniversary of Baptist, and to point others to Roy's fine article.

So Aron, why drag Lee/Sandy's opinion of John Pierce's editorial into it? Yes I know, Flick opened the door with his positive assessment of that editorial. But it had nothing to do with ABC-USA, other than Flick being an ABCer.

And as for your comments there are other Baptist who are able to find common ground with some Southern Baptist
The list of participating groups who supported the New Baptist Covenant meeting in Kansas City in April Started with ABC-USA and ended with Southern Baptist. And Wade Burleson a Southern Baptist Pastor is scheduled to be a featured Preacher at the NBC event coming up in Norman OK, an event btw, that Flick has promoted .

P.S. Enjoy Rome
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Re: Thanks to BT Editor -John Pierce

Postby Big Daddy Weaver » Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:26 pm

So, um, why ask the question of you already know the answer?

Don't waste your breath.

David brought Johnny's editorial up, I left a comment.

Yea, it's a thread drift. But I rarely if ever see you complain about thread drifts in other forums - pretty sure you participate in thread drifts as well....
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Re: Thanks to BT Editor -John Pierce

Postby Ed Pettibone » Thu Jun 04, 2009 5:26 pm

Big Daddy Weaver wrote:So, um, why ask the question of you already know the answer?

Don't waste your breath.

David brought Johnny's editorial up, I left a comment.

Yea, it's a thread drift. But I rarely if ever see you complain about thread drifts in other forums - pretty sure you participate in thread drifts as well....


Ed: Aaron where did I indicate that I knew why you chose to drag lee's blogged opinion into the discussion. Be careful of open doors, someone may slam one in your face.

Lee apparently knows little about the NBC. He and you should note that for the Kansas City event held on the Missouri side the planing organizations ran from ABC to SBC.

From the website of the host church
The Baptist Border Crossing Event was held April 2-4, 2009, at Pleasant Valley Baptist Church. The church is located at the corner of I-35 North and North 291 Highway in Liberty. The address is 1600 N. 291 Hwy., Liberty, Missouri 64068. Pleasant Valley Baptist Church is a family of faith seeking to fulfill our purpose of connecting people with God and others. Vernon Armitage has been the pastor for more than 35 years.

Baptist Groups Represented
in the Planning for this Event
American Baptist Churches, USA
Baptist Geneal Convention of Missouri
Cooperative Baptist Fellowship
General Association of General Baptists
National Baptist Convention of America
National Baptist Convention, USA
Progressive National Baptist Convention
Southern Baptist Convention


Now on that SBC thing, they may have meant the local Association of SBC churches. Does any one here have an Idea?

And as I am sure you know John Pierce and Baptist Today have been very supportive of the NBC, whereas the Southern Baptist Convention leadership and some want to be leaders, have avoided it except to be critical In BP and other Convention controlled venues along with individual blogs.
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Re: Thanks to BT Editor -John Pierce

Postby David Flick » Fri Jun 05, 2009 7:24 am

Ed Pettibone wrote: Yes I know, Flick opened the door with his positive assessment of that editorial. But it had nothing to do with ABC-USA, other than Flick being an ABCer.

I apologize for the thread drift. I should have made a comment about the article to which you referred. I thought Roy Medley's article was excellent. Of course, he was talking more about traditional Baptists than fundamentalist ones. IMO, Southern Baptists have strayed far from traditional Baptist orthodoxy.
Toward the end of his article, Medley wrote:... So Baptist life has emphasized loving neighbor in Good News-telling, justice-seeking, peace-making and mercy-doing.

As I view it, moderate Baptists (specifically American Baptist & Cooperative Baptists) do emphasized loving neighbor in Good News-telling, justice-seeking, peace-making and mercy-doing. From experience, I don't see Southern Baptists focusing on those issues. Rather, they focus on neighbor-judging, controversy-making, parameter-narrowing, fellowship-breaking, diversity-hating, and excluding those who don't totally agree with them. Southern Baptists don't love their neighbors. They don't even love their fellow Baptists of the world. If they honestly did what Medley wrote, they would never have left the BWA...

------------------------------------------

Incidentally, Ed, I believe that Johnny and Roy Medley grew up together in the same community. If I'm not mistaken (and I well could be), Johnny and Roy were childhood neighbors. Maybe Johnny will enter and correct me if I'm wrong about that...
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Re: Thanks to BT Editor -John Pierce

Postby David Flick » Fri Jun 05, 2009 7:58 am

Big Daddy Weaver wrote:Sandy didn't particularly care for Johnny's op-ed that you reference, David.

See: Two Steps Backward for Baptists Today

His blog post is built on a false dichotomy which is that moderate Baptists can't continue to create a new identity and cooperate with other Baptists as long as moderate Baptist publications are, on occasion, critical of SBCers and SBC endeavors.

I would argue that if Johnny ignored the SBC or only heaped false praise on the SBC, he'd be doing a lousy job as the editor of a Baptist publication. Those moderates who write about Baptists (books, newspapers, magazines, journals, blogs, etc.) can't ignore the SBC. In fact, I believe that it is often necessary for moderate Baptists to invoke Southern Baptists and the Southern Baptist Convention in the public arena in order to distinguish a centrist/progressive Baptist identity from a fundamentalist Baptist identity.

Sometimes the Southern Baptist Convention needs lambasting....

Aaron, I concur with your evaluation of Sandy's blog entry. Johnny's editorial was spot on. Southern Baptists are incapable of accepting moderate Baptists as equals in the Kingdom of God. I spent almost my entire ministry career as a Southern Baptist pastor (all in Oklahoma). I have seen and experienced first hand the venom and hate Southern Baptists displayed toward the Mainstream Oklahoma Baptists and the CBFOklahoma. You wouldn't believe the treatment we have received at the hands the BGCO. Well, maybe you would if you knew some of the things that Bruce Prescott and I have faced over the last decade. There is certainly no love lost toward moderate Oklahoma Baptist from the BGCO. For a good example of this, follow the comment stream in this blog.
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Re: Thanks to BT Editor -John Pierce

Postby Haruo » Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:53 pm

David Flick wrote:
Big Daddy Weaver wrote:Sandy didn't particularly care for Johnny's op-ed that you reference, David.

See: Two Steps Backward for Baptists Today

His blog post is built on a false dichotomy which is that moderate Baptists can't continue to create a new identity and cooperate with other Baptists as long as moderate Baptist publications are, on occasion, critical of SBCers and SBC endeavors.

I would argue that if Johnny ignored the SBC or only heaped false praise on the SBC, he'd be doing a lousy job as the editor of a Baptist publication. Those moderates who write about Baptists (books, newspapers, magazines, journals, blogs, etc.) can't ignore the SBC. In fact, I believe that it is often necessary for moderate Baptists to invoke Southern Baptists and the Southern Baptist Convention in the public arena in order to distinguish a centrist/progressive Baptist identity from a fundamentalist Baptist identity.

Sometimes the Southern Baptist Convention needs lambasting....

Aaron, I concur with your evaluation of Sandy's blog entry. Johnny's editorial was spot on. Southern Baptists are incapable of accepting moderate Baptists as equals in the Kingdom of God. I spent almost my entire ministry career as a Southern Baptist pastor (all in Oklahoma). I have seen and experienced first hand the venom and hate Southern Baptists displayed toward the Mainstream Oklahoma Baptists and the CBFOklahoma. You wouldn't believe the treatment we have received at the hands the BGCO. Well, maybe you would if you knew some of the things that Bruce Prescott and I have faced over the last decade. There is certainly no love lost toward moderate Oklahoma Baptist from the BGCO. For a good example of this, follow the comment stream in this blog.

Well, there's a lot of the broad brush Picasso in this exchange. In particular, "Southern Baptists are incapable of accepting moderate Baptists as equals in the Kingdom of God" strikes me as overly broad, apparently because of the...is it metonymy or synecdoche?...of typing "Southern Baptists" when one means "the vast majority of the last few decades' SBC entity leaders" or something. I have no doubt that there are plenty of Southern Baptists (even SBC-affiliated Southern Baptists) who do not have the incapability mentioned; indeed, as Ed points out, it appears some such were involved in the KC NBC meeting's planning. Whether this was done with their state convention's blessing I don't know. Whether they will be censured by the SBC, their state convention, BP, or whomever remains to be seen. But they are still Southern Baptists, and the fact that they were willing to participate in NBC planning or actual meetings (as Wade B apparently is) is strong evidence that they are not suffering from the Mark 10:40 syndrome that, surely, many of the Convention's encyclicals bespeak.
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Re: Thanks to BT Editor -John Pierce

Postby David Flick » Sat Jun 06, 2009 7:21 am

Haruo wrote:
David Flick wrote:
Big Daddy Weaver wrote:Sandy didn't particularly care for Johnny's op-ed that you reference, David.

See: Two Steps Backward for Baptists Today

His blog post is built on a false dichotomy which is that moderate Baptists can't continue to create a new identity and cooperate with other Baptists as long as moderate Baptist publications are, on occasion, critical of SBCers and SBC endeavors.

I would argue that if Johnny ignored the SBC or only heaped false praise on the SBC, he'd be doing a lousy job as the editor of a Baptist publication. Those moderates who write about Baptists (books, newspapers, magazines, journals, blogs, etc.) can't ignore the SBC. In fact, I believe that it is often necessary for moderate Baptists to invoke Southern Baptists and the Southern Baptist Convention in the public arena in order to distinguish a centrist/progressive Baptist identity from a fundamentalist Baptist identity.

Sometimes the Southern Baptist Convention needs lambasting....

Aaron, I concur with your evaluation of Sandy's blog entry. Johnny's editorial was spot on. Southern Baptists are incapable of accepting moderate Baptists as equals in the Kingdom of God. I spent almost my entire ministry career as a Southern Baptist pastor (all in Oklahoma). I have seen and experienced first hand the venom and hate Southern Baptists displayed toward the Mainstream Oklahoma Baptists and the CBFOklahoma. You wouldn't believe the treatment we have received at the hands the BGCO. Well, maybe you would if you knew some of the things that Bruce Prescott and I have faced over the last decade. There is certainly no love lost toward moderate Oklahoma Baptist from the BGCO. For a good example of this, follow the comment stream in this blog.

Well, there's a lot of the broad brush Picasso in this exchange. In particular, "Southern Baptists are incapable of accepting moderate Baptists as equals in the Kingdom of God" strikes me as overly broad, apparently because of the...is it metonymy or synecdoche?...of typing "Southern Baptists" when one means "the vast majority of the last few decades' SBC entity leaders" or something. I have no doubt that there are plenty of Southern Baptists (even SBC-affiliated Southern Baptists) who do not have the incapability mentioned; indeed, as Ed points out, it appears some such were involved in the KC NBC meeting's planning. Whether this was done with their state convention's blessing I don't know. Whether they will be censured by the SBC, their state convention, BP, or whomever remains to be seen. But they are still Southern Baptists, and the fact that they were willing to participate in NBC planning or actual meetings (as Wade B apparently is) is strong evidence that they are not suffering from the Mark 10:40 syndrome that, surely, many of the Convention's encyclicals bespeak.

To the contrary, Haruo. My comment isn't broad-brush Picasso. Broad-brush Picasso is a genre (of art) that does not need to literally represent reality. My comment about Southern Baptists being incapable of accepting moderate Baptists as equals in the Kingdom of God is reality. If you have no doubt that there are plenty of Southern Baptists (leaders, movers, and shakers), I'd like to hear about them. Other than Wade Burleson, who will be participating in the NBC here in Oklahoma next August, I know of no Southern Baptist leaders who are willing to fellowship with moderate Baptists, much less attend the NBC assembly. My comment possesses more of a Norman Rockwell brush, depicticting reality rather than distorted unreality... :D
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Re: Thanks to BT Editor -John Pierce

Postby Haruo » Sat Jun 06, 2009 11:48 am

Well, David, I think given what Ed pointed to, maybe your characterization is, if not too broad, too localised. But I still think the problem is breadth. "Most Southern Baptist leaders" I would accept; "Nearly all Southern Baptist leaders" I would consider. But "Southern Baptists" where a reasonable inference might be "All Southern Baptists from housewives to IMB chairs", that strikes me as crying out for qualification.
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Re: Thanks to BT Editor -John Pierce

Postby Ed Pettibone » Sat Jun 06, 2009 11:56 am

Flick:
Aaron, I concur with your evaluation of Sandy's blog entry. Johnny's editorial was spot on. Southern Baptists are incapable of accepting moderate Baptists as equals in the Kingdom of God. I spent almost my entire ministry career as a Southern Baptist pastor (all in Oklahoma). I have seen and experienced first hand the venom and hate Southern Baptists displayed toward the Mainstream Oklahoma Baptists and the CBFOklahoma. You wouldn't believe the treatment we have received at the hands the BGCO. Well, maybe you would if you knew some of the things that Bruce Prescott and I have faced over the last decade. There is certainly no love lost toward moderate Oklahoma Baptist from the BGCO. For a good example of this, follow the comment stream in this blog.


HARUO: IWell, there's a lot of the broad brush Picasso in this exchange. In particular, "Southern Baptists are incapable of accepting moderate Baptists as equals in the Kingdom of God" strikes me as overly broad, apparently because of the...is it metonymy or synecdoche?...of typing "Southern Baptists" when one means "the vast majority of the last few decades' SBC entity leaders" or something. I have no doubt that there are plenty of Southern Baptists (even SBC-affiliated Southern Baptists) who do not have the incapability mentioned; indeed, as Ed points out, it appears some such were involved in the KC NBC meeting's planning. Whether this was done with their state convention's blessing I don't know. Whether they will be censured by the SBC, their state convention, BP, or whomever remains to be seen. But they are still Southern Baptists, and the fact that they were willing to participate in NBC planning or actual meetings (as Wade B apparently is) is strong evidence that they are not suffering from the Mark 10:40 syndrome that, surely, many of the Convention's encyclicals bespeak.[/quote]

To the contrary, Haruo. My comment isn't broad-brush Picasso. Broad-brush Picasso is a genre (of art) that does not need to literally represent reality. My comment about Southern Baptists being incapable of accepting moderate Baptists as equals in the Kingdom of God is reality. If you have no doubt that there are plenty of Southern Baptists (leaders, movers, and shakers), I'd like to hear about them. Other than Wade Burleson, who will be participating in the NBC here in Oklahoma next August, I know of no Southern Baptist leaders who are willing to fellowship with moderate Baptists, much less attend the NBC assembly. My comment possesses more of a Norman Rockwell brush, depicticting reality rather than distorted unreality... :D[/quote]

Ed: David I am not sure that either you or Haruo know much about Picasso. You may want to look at this site: http://www.art.com/gallery/id--a16/pabl ... 59DDE734B6

Much of his work presents a fine line, also there are often sharp angles and much of it looks as if it where drawn with a straight edge instrument. And By the way I have found no reference to a Genre of art called Broad Brush Picasso. I suspect that Haruo was employed a bit of hyperbole when he added the name of Picasso to the rather common term meaning 1. not specific; general a broad-brush view 2. sweeping; indiscriminate broad-brush criticism. 3. overstated

If you had said some "Southern Baptists are incapable of accepting moderate Baptists as equals in the Kingdom of God" that would have been a true statement. I would also suggest that the folk you are talking about most often sneer at the term moderate, and as you well know, they use phrases such as "so call moderates" and "liberal" or worse to describe us. I maintain that their thousands of Baptist in SBC related churches who are conservative but tolerant of many of us to their left. A couple times a year when traveling in the south on a Sunday we stop at the nearest baptist church only once has it turned out to be a CBF church but we have always been welcomed. Although as of yet when they have discovered that Trudy is a pastor, she has not been invited to participate in the service. :wink: But then just week in a phone interview with a pastoral search committee of an ABC church she was asked to "justify", how a woman can fill the role of a "regular" Pastor. That church now has a woman as interim. Also she has had contacts from churches the Identify primarily as SBC, and the contacts have been initiated by the CBF office in Atlanta. I will hasten to say that those contacts have been for ministry positions other than "Senior" pastor, and preaching even occasionally has been a a deal breaker for at least two. Every year at the CBF assembly I talk to folk who are in "SBC/CBF" churches, some say their church is just waiting "till some of the old people are gone " to drop the SBC designation. Others are happy to leave it as is.

So David, leaving Picasso out of the mix I would say your statement was overly broad. I am persuaded that if we want others to be honest about CBF, Main Stream, ABC, BWA, ect, we must also be more exacting in any negative comments about them.
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Re: Thanks to BT Editor -John Pierce

Postby Haruo » Sat Jun 06, 2009 6:36 pm

To be sure, Ed, I agree with the gist of your critique of David's posts in this thread, and you're right, when I wrote "Picasso" I wasn't referring to Pablo.
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