American Baptist Ministers on Gay Rights

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American Baptist Ministers on Gay Rights

Postby Big Daddy Weaver » Fri May 22, 2009 3:38 pm

That's the topic of my latest blog post - which includes the findings pertaining to American Baptists from a recent survey of mainline clergy on gay rights questions.
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Re: American Baptist Ministers on Gay Rights

Postby jerryl » Thu May 28, 2009 7:57 pm

Thank for the post, I've waited because I wanted to say something after more reflection, but I just haven't had time so far.

Generally, I'm not surprised, among the mainlines, ABC-USA is more or less the mainline-to-evangelical bridge. The data seems to confirm that. On the basic question, no surprises.

But there may be some interesting analysis to be done on the clergy's view of their denomination's position on LGBT issues. Lots of things I could say, but a quick read seems to make me think that both conservative ABC-USA clergy and I both seem to feel ABC-USA leadership has leaned toward a progressive views on LGBT issues, no matter what those leaders officially say and the official stand of the denomination. Again, that's a very broad and quick read; I really want to take the time read that section carefully, and see if I can pull some numbers out to crunch on this. I may be reading too much into this, though.

Again thanks for posting.

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Re: American Baptist Ministers on Gay Rights

Postby Big Daddy Weaver » Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:32 pm

Related to the UMC/ABC comparison, Hauro wrote over on my blog:

The surprising thing to me was how close the UMC pastors were to the ABC stats. Hereabouts (in Seattle, that is, not in St. Louis which is where I’m actually posting from) I would say the UMC seems on average much more liberated in their thinking on this point than the ABC, especially if you include the ABCNW folks and not just my own somewhat more enlightened Evergreen region. (And they’re more numerous than we are.)


I've never heard ABC described as a bridge between mainline and evangelical but - at least on this one issue - that's what the numbers do seem to reflect.
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Re: American Baptist Ministers on Gay Rights

Postby jerryl » Wed Jun 10, 2009 9:14 pm

Timothy Bonney wrote:
Big Daddy Weaver wrote:Related to the UMC/ABC comparison, Hauro wrote over on my blog:

When describing ourselves to others we often use that terminology. Maybe we just haven't shown enough of a presence in your kneck of the woods yet. :)

I think it is a pretty accurate description. We have common characteristics of both mainline and evangelical churches. For example ABC churches emphasize a personal relationship with Christ and evangelism but also emphasize ecumenical relationships and common ground.


Most ABC churches south of Mason-Dixon probably aren't going to be of the evangelical side of the ABC-USA house, they are probably ABC-USA because they aren't evangelical but want to stay Baptist.

And for Hauro, he needed to come a little farther South, here in Texas, in general UMCers are much more conservative. There's a lot of UMC folk here that are theology evangelical and wouldn't find the flip to a evangelical church a problem or much of a change at all.

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Re: American Baptist Ministers on Gay Rights

Postby Shawn Koester » Sun Jun 28, 2015 10:34 pm

As a pastor to be in both the Christian Church (Disciples) and the American Baptist Churches USA, I support LGBT rights in and outside the church. I respect the soul liberty of my brothers and sisters that hold on to more conservative views. We can agree to disagree in Christ like love without finding the opposing views or the people who hold them disagreeable. I hold to affirming views of the LGBT community for several reasons and primarily because of my commitment to follow Jesus as my Lord and Savior. If Jesus is our Lord, as we proclaim, than we must be faithful to him and him alone. If Jesus is our Savior, as we proclaim, than he saves us from our sin and aimlessness. Jesus said that the two greatest commandments that sum up the law, prophets and the whole of Scripture is "To Love the Lord our God with all our heart, all our soul and all of our might and the second likened to it is "we must love our neighbor as self". Jesus also said, "Whoever welcomes a child in my name, welcomes me and whoever welcomes me welcomes the Father who sent me" Jesus also said, "Suffer not the little children to come unto me and forbid them not for such people the kingdom belongs". As Christians we are to recognize the immortal light and love of God in each person and to see the face of our Lord on each person as if they were Jesus himself. I find that as a straight, engaged ally of the LGBT community and a Progressive Evangelical, I find that God's gay, lesbian, bi and transgender children are some of the most faithful disciples I know because they have been rejected at the hands of many in the church, they have suffered second class citizenship at the hands of our own government and through it all, they have remained faithful witnesses of our Lord. By dragging the Lord's name into hate we have essentially driven people away from the Lord and out of the church. In that light we say, Jesus, son of the living God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

By listen to each other and being constructive can we move forward in our efforts to work and pray for the kingdom of God.

I recommend some reading particularly God and the Gay Christian by Matthew Vines, Stranger at the Gate: To be Gay and Christian in America by Mel White, Does Jesus Really Love Me?: A Gay Christian's Search for God in America by Jeff Chu.
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Re: American Baptist Ministers on Gay Rights

Postby Tim Bonney » Sun Jun 28, 2015 10:52 pm

I'm enjoying your writing Shawn. Glad you are hear!
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Re: American Baptist Ministers on Gay Rights

Postby KeithE » Mon Jun 29, 2015 4:39 pm

Timothy Bonney wrote:I'm enjoying your writing Shawn. Glad you are hear!

And I’m glad you are here to be heard!
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Re: American Baptist Ministers on Gay Rights

Postby Ed Pettibone » Thu Jul 02, 2015 3:42 pm

KeithE wrote:
Timothy Bonney wrote:I'm enjoying your writing Shawn. Glad you are hear!

And I’m glad you are here to be heard!


Ed; Please note the study reported in the first post of this thread was done in 2009. I question its validity for today.
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Re: American Baptist Ministers on Gay Rights

Postby KeithE » Fri Jul 03, 2015 7:29 am

Ed Pettibone wrote:
KeithE wrote:
Timothy Bonney wrote:I'm enjoying your writing Shawn. Glad you are hear!

And I’m glad you are here to be heard!


Ed; Please note the study reported in the first post of this thread was done in 2009. I question its validity for today.

Good point and I betcha a survey taken today of ABC clergy would be more liberal than it was in 2009. Do you agree?
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Re: American Baptist Ministers on Gay Rights

Postby Ed Pettibone » Fri Jul 03, 2015 9:54 am

Ed; Please note the study reported in the first post of this thread was done in 2009. I question its validity for today.[/quote]

KeithE: Good point and I betcha a survey taken today of ABC clergy would be more liberal than it was in 2009. Do you agree?[/quote]

Ed: Yes, But the degree would depend on what group did the survey. Although I say yes, the number of post SBC takeover SBC pastors, coming into ABC churches may affect that. Also what definition of liberal one uses.

Were the same group who did the original to do another, I would guess perhaps a 4% up-tic in liberality, due primarily to the Death and Retirement of many of the more conservative long term pastors. The impact of new socially liberal young pastors is negated somewhat by rising numbers of more conservative bi-vocational pastors filling the pulpits of declining churches.
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Re: American Baptist Ministers on Gay Rights

Postby pastorpete » Thu Aug 27, 2015 6:46 am

jerryl wrote:Lots of things I could say, but a quick read seems to make me think that both conservative ABC-USA clergy and I both seem to feel ABC-USA leadership has leaned toward a progressive views on LGBT issues


I think "progressive" is probably a poor term to use. Progress would indicate advancement in the mind of some. It would seem that taking a stand or leading a congregation in a direction contrary to scripture would be better labelled as "un-biblical."
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Re: American Baptist Ministers on Gay Rights

Postby Tim Bonney » Thu Aug 27, 2015 11:44 am

pastorpete wrote:I think "progressive" is probably a poor term to use. Progress would indicate advancement in the mind of some. It would seem that taking a stand or leading a congregation in a direction contrary to scripture would be better labelled as "un-biblical."


That's convenient to label the side you disagree with as "un-biblical." Then you just need two theological catagories "my viewpoint" and "un-biblical." :wink:
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Re: American Baptist Ministers on Gay Rights

Postby Ed Pettibone » Thu Aug 27, 2015 9:48 pm

Timothy Bonney wrote:
pastorpete wrote:I think "progressive" is probably a poor term to use. Progress would indicate advancement in the mind of some. It would seem that taking a stand or leading a congregation in a direction contrary to scripture would be better labelled as "un-biblical."


That's convenient to label the side you disagree with as "un-biblical." Then you just need two theological catagories "my viewpoint" and "un-biblical." :wink:


Ed: Uh! Tim, note Pastor Peat said It would seem that taking a stand or leading a congregation in a direction contrary to scripture would be better labelled as un-biblical." It is rather clear that he disagrees with you view of Homosexuality, and you disagree with his. Do we really want to go through that again? I might suggest, I find your stance regressive. Since Pastor Peat is a relatively newbie on Bl.c, having only posted 5 times total since signing up 3 years ago. What is it have you been saying the last few days about welcoming the stranger? :roll:
Last edited by Ed Pettibone on Thu Aug 27, 2015 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: American Baptist Ministers on Gay Rights

Postby Tim Bonney » Thu Aug 27, 2015 9:59 pm

I'm not sure I want to go through it again. But it certainly appears there are plenty of people who do Ed.

As to being "welcoming to a stranger" how does that apply to a discussion board? Do I throw him softballs for a few weeks or months? Do I pretend we agree and then surprise him in a few months by pointing out our differences?

It seems to me that the way to welcome someone to discussion forum is to share honestly our agreements and differences.
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Re: American Baptist Ministers on Gay Rights

Postby Ed Pettibone » Thu Aug 27, 2015 10:07 pm

Timothy Bonney wrote:I'm not sure I want to go through it again. But it certainly appears there are plenty of people who do Ed.

As to being "welcoming to a stranger" how does that apply to a discussion board? Do I throw him softballs for a few weeks or months? Do I pretend we agree and then surprise him in a few months by pointing out our differences?

It seems to me that the way to welcome someone to discussion forum is to share honestly our agreements and differences.


Ed: You could at least attempt to discuss the issue with him rather than your slap down response.

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Re: American Baptist Ministers on Gay Rights

Postby Tim Bonney » Thu Aug 27, 2015 10:24 pm

Ed Pettibone wrote:Ed: You could at least attempt to discuss the issue with him rather than your slap down response.


Just responding in kind Ed. I could have probably said it in a nicer way. But, those of us who are progressives who believe we are supporting LGBT people exactly because we believe it is Biblical get tired of conservatives acting like they hold the sole right to Biblical interpretation. So at times it makes us a bit snappy when the next accusation comes along.
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Re: American Baptist Ministers on Gay Rights

Postby Sandy » Fri Aug 28, 2015 12:50 pm

Timothy Bonney wrote:
pastorpete wrote:I think "progressive" is probably a poor term to use. Progress would indicate advancement in the mind of some. It would seem that taking a stand or leading a congregation in a direction contrary to scripture would be better labelled as "un-biblical."


That's convenient to label the side you disagree with as "un-biblical." Then you just need two theological catagories "my viewpoint" and "un-biblical." :wink:


I see the wink. But you should understand, for those of us who hold to a strong belief in Biblical authority, it gets a little confusing when we see you argue that you don't believe the Bible is without error, but you want to use it to make your point. How do you know that what you are citing is biblical or not?
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Re: American Baptist Ministers on Gay Rights

Postby Tim Bonney » Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:01 pm

Sandy wrote:I see the wink. But you should understand, for those of us who hold to a strong belief in Biblical authority, it gets a little confusing when we see you argue that you don't believe the Bible is without error, but you want to use it to make your point. How do you know that what you are citing is biblical or not?


That's ok Sandy. It gets confusing to those of us who hold older historical views about Biblical inspiration when folks who believe in inerrancy act as if they aren't supporting a newbie theory created in the 19th century that is used to filter the meaning of the Bible in a completely scientific and modernist way that wouldn't be recognized by the founders of any of our denominations or the Apostles for that matter.

And you call us liberals?? LOL
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Re: American Baptist Ministers on Gay Rights

Postby Ed Pettibone » Sun Sep 13, 2015 3:44 pm

Timothy Bonney wrote:
Sandy wrote:I see the wink. But you should understand, for those of us who hold to a strong belief in Biblical authority, it gets a little confusing when we see you argue that you don't believe the Bible is without error, but you want to use it to make your point. How do you know that what you are citing is biblical or not?


That's ok Sandy. It gets confusing to those of us who hold older historical views about Biblical inspiration when folks who believe in inerrancy act as if they aren't supporting a newbie theory created in the 19th century that is used to filter the meaning of the Bible in a completely scientific and modernist way that wouldn't be recognized by the founders of any of our denominations or the Apostles for that matter.

And you call us liberals?? LOL


Ed: Tim I don't think you answered Sandy's question? :roll:
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