ABCOTS, from the BF&P Forum

[Haruo]

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: Haruo I was refering to the shaded map that one sees when they follow you link to the ABCOTHS website, in the post where you said " Hey, there's a whole Region of ABC churches in the South. Part of the reason the Northern Baptist Convention changed its name, I think." Looking again I am not sure if their are three or four shades on that image. on My computer, Florida is not real distinctly different from the Texas centered area.

But the latter map that you posted with the colors probably are more indicative of the reality, and is much more definitive thanks.

And TIm when you say that you have heard that "the level of participation in ABCOTS was rather good"

What does "rather good" mean? I have understood it means a handful of folk are very active. Particularly one predominantly caucasian No. Carolina church. And no I do not have any good way to verify that. Other than I do know that in Denver their pastor was quite vocal about what they had been promised when they joined ABC-USA, a few years earlier .

[Haruo]

What had they been promised and by whom, may I ask? (Or rather, what did he say they had been...)

[Haruo]

[Haruo]

Sort of like this version I just did with Sepia in Picasa, then screensaved and copied to Paint to circumvent file protection (in other words, to violate, technically, ABCOTS' copyright, though not in a way that I think is either sinful or actionable):

[Ed Pettibone]

[Haruo]

Thanks, Ed.

Other little oddities about the ABCOTS map(s):

1) They show WV as part of an Area that also includes all of VA except the Eastern Shore;
2) The latter, plus apparently DE, are shown as part of "MD/DC" (yellow area in the full-color version);

which seems to me to tread on the turf of the ABC of PA and DE, and on that of WVBC, while not acknowledging even the existence of one of their Areas, Area VII, the "Brackett-Morell Association (Western Virginia, Eastern W. Virginia)", which probably overlaps or overlays both WVBC and ABCOTS Area II. It appears to me that the Brackett-Morell Association is a holdover from the merger in 1911 in which the Northern Baptist Convention received a large Free Will Baptist convention into sole alignment (probably an anachronistic term), and there may well be (probably are) non-Free Will American Baptist churches within its geographical area that are affiliated with the other entities rather than with the BMA.

[Ed Pettibone]

[Haruo]

I like to think that I'm far enough out of the citadels of power and prestige that your description of me as a "prominent member of Evergreen" was surely TIC. I hold no position in Evergreen other than lay membership in one of the associated churches, attendance as a lay individual at occasional Region functions, and self-appointment as region hymnal editor. We're a small enough Region that anybody who goes to several of the functions will be at least in a nodding acquaintanceship with the others who do so, and at least most of the pastors of Seattle-area Evergreen churches probably have at least heard of me, but that doesn't constitute "prominent member" status in my book. And I consider BL.com far enough from the center of Baptist gravity that my position here doesn't qualify me, either. Unless you meant "prominent member of BL.com and Evergreen", in which case I probably do qualify by default...

Anyhow, aside from the Utah and Idaho churches, and the now sadly, apparently, defunct Pullman church, I don't know of any churches we have taken in from outside our charter area (namely, the Seattle Baptist Union boundaries, which basically means King and southern Snohomish counties) that the Regions those churches were previously associated with wanted to keep--we haven't gone fishing for converts--heck, if you had an AWAB church in your region you'd probably be relieved if they decided to switch to Rochester/Genesee or Metro NYC, wouldn't you? One of our recent "acquisitions", in Tacoma, as I understand it, left ABCNW for Evergreen because the former was attempting to dictate whom they could hire as Music Minister. Do you think Regions should have that sort of dictatorial power, or should even want it, the way the SBC apparently wants to say whom Broadway can have on its committees? And ABCNW has churches within the SBU "turf", too, including some that we are in friendly relations with, including Chinese Baptist and Queen Anne Baptist (Fremont's nearest neighbor, as the crow flies). So the trespass is mutual. There is no reason I can see why Regions should have turfs; Regions should consist of churches that are ready to work together in their shared ministries and respect each other in their separate ministries. IMO.

[Haruo]

Personally, I'd rather see participation here by ordinary ABCOTS pastors and laity, not that an Exec Minister wouldn't be a nice addition. But Executive Ministers can be propagators of party lines (their own, their region leadership's, or Valley Forge's) or even if entirely open they can be perceived as such by outsiders. Not that ordinary pastors and laity don't have their own hobby horses and dull axes... But Timothy, I don't see either Ed's or my comments here as intended to critique ABCOTS. I think saying what we have heard, or looking at what the region's website shows or seems to show, is not by any means the same thing as gossip. We are doing the best we can with the data we have at hand.

Do you have any specific suggestions of people in ABCOTS (aside from the Exec Min) who might be invited to provide their views? You can PM me or Ed with them if you don't feel like inviting them yourself.

[Ed Pettibone]

[Haruo]

Well, David is louder than Timothy, Ed.

Both are more prominent in their Regions, I am sure, than I am in mine. (Absolute prominence, not per capita. )

[Ed Pettibone]

Haruo writes "Well, David is louder than Timothy, Ed."

Ed: Are you basing that phone conversations? I have never had a phone conversation with Tim. But I have had a few such with David and have never noticed him being loud. I have also had Personal conversations with each of them, have you. Davids live persona is somewhat different than what we see on these boards. And so is Tim's and probably mine, as is yours to a degree. FOX, is probably the most consistent here and in person as any I have met. William is more laid back in person.

I wish we could get some ABCOTS folk on here. I jerryl ABCOTS in Tx, I have never been quite sure. Shoot I wish we could get some from each region.

Not sure I understand your term absolute prominence?

[Haruo]

Last I knew both jerryl's personal church affiliation and the alignment of City Church, the one he had/has? been a member of, I think, were both up in the air. I think there was some question whether he would stay with them, and also some question whether they were still ABC, or maybe (going on hazy memory) Alliance or Alliance/UCC... Not sure. Luckily, Jerry has been around some of late, so he may see this and put our speculations to bed.

[David Flick]

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed; As I have said on more than one occasion I highly dislike the format of these boards for trying to carry on a conversation.

At this point I have no more to say about the ABCOTS per se , however In looking back over this thread I find several points to quibble with.

In Haruos first post of the thread he says "In a thread focusing on the future of the CBF over at the Baptist Faith and Practice Forum, Ed brought up the issue of the southernness of CBF, generally speaking, and I countered with the existence of ABCOTS, and it went from there."

A. Now I would like to know where Haruo heard me/saw me bring up an "issue of the "southerness of CBF" in that thread?

B. He denies his prominence in the Evergreen Association.

Ed: I will admit I have no real knowledge of that.

C. He writes "Anyhow, aside from the Utah and Idaho churches, and the now sadly, apparently, defunct Pullman church, I don't know of any churches we have taken in from outside our charter area (namely, the Seattle Baptist Union boundaries, which basically means King and southern Snohomish counties) that the Regions those churches were previously associated with wanted to keep--we haven't gone fishing for converts--

Ed: But then the Evergreen website list not only Utah and Idaho out side of the Greater Seattle/ Washington State area but also California and Alaska also.

D. Hauro then poses a question to me " if you had an AWAB church in your region you'd probably be relieved if they decided to switch to Rochester/Genesee or Metro NYC, wouldn't you?

Ed: We do in fact have some (note the plural. I am not sure how many). Nor do I know exactly how any of them define their AWBA position. If in fact they claim that homosexuality is normal and that Gays and Lesbians are welcome into full membership, I would say as I said from the platform in Denver. " I would prefer to see them re-examine their position and bring it more in line with the majority of ABC Churches OR leave the ABC-USA and become insependents, join some other group or, start their own Baptist denomination. Their switching to Rochester/Genesee or Metro NYC, would be in my opinion more legitimate that what evergreen and R/G have done. I say that because in my understanding even before sexual orientation became an issue ABC regions accepted churches from contiguous geographic regions on a regular basis. Both METRO NYC and Rochester/Genesee are contiguous to our region which is ABCNYS .

E1. Haruo goes on " One of our recent "acquisitions", in Tacoma, as I understand it, left ABCNW for Evergreen because the former was attempting to dictate whom they could hire as Music Minister. Do you think Regions should have that sort of dictatorial power, or should even want it, the way the SBC apparently wants to say whom Broadway can have on its committees?

Ed: Haruo as you should know by now I believe the reasons any Baptist entity wants to disassociate from some part, needs to be judged on a case by case basis. And while I freely give opinions on what the SBC and SBC churches do based on my 40 plus year affiliation with them, I see no parallel in what the SBC does and what an ABC region does. If you want to discuss what an SBC State convention does as compared directly to an ABC-USA Region I may give it a shot. And I will not comment directly to your question as it relates to ABCNW and the church in Tacoma with out more information such as, exactly what you mean by "attempting to dictate whom they could hire".


F. And ABCNW has churches within the SBU "turf", too, including some that we are in friendly relations with, including Chinese Baptist and Queen Anne Baptist (Fremont's nearest neighbor, as the crow flies). So the trespass is mutual. There is no reason I can see why Regions should have turfs; Regions should consist of churches that are ready to work together in their shared ministries and respect each other in their separate ministries. IMO.

Ed: I have no idea what the SBU tuff refers to.

And by definition region has to do with turffs ; Wiki; Region is a geographical term.

[Haruo]

[Haruo]

[Haruo]

[Haruo]

[Ed Pettibone]

Haruo to Ed: So your point in quibbling over this is??

Ed: I am persuaded that "turf protection" as you refer to it, is a valid objective of Associations and Regions of the ABC-USA.
To a great degree a common ideology is a foundational component needed for such organizations to function effectively. Note, great degree and common ideology, are each retaliative terms, and that is as precise as I care to be at this time.

[Ed Pettibone]

Haruo writes; "My guess is that most of the Seattle churches that stayed with ABCNW would have gone with Evergreen if they had not fallen prey to the lie that joining Evergreen would mean they would have to become W&A. Some of them are still probably going to join us one of these days, quicker if ABCNW pulls the same kind of regulatory nonsense on them that it did on the Tacoma Graces."

Ed; So what kind of "regulatory nonsense" did ABCNW pull on Tacoma Graces.

[Haruo]

[Haruo]

[Haruo]

Ed will probably say it had not effect on the local church's autonomy. And in a technical sense of course it doesn't. But the thing is, it would if it could. It's the spirit of the thing that rankles so. I know it's traditional for brethren to fall out and fight civil wars and whatnot, but it's really not necessary and it's hurtful to boot.