Biennial Statements of Concern

[Ed Pettibone]

[pastormikejordan]

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: Mike, I am not sure that I agree with you that the ABC-USA identity is "up for grabs", at least no more so than any other time in our history.
And I doubt that any document crafted today will escape future attempts at revision by special interest groups of one type or another.

Back up a ways in this thread Tim Bonney referred to a booklet titled We Are American Baptist For the life of me I can't locate the Hard copy of that which we received some time ago. But I have found what I belive is the same thing on line the url is http://www.abc-usa.org/identity/index.html

We Are American Baptists
A People of Faith~~A People in Mission
It seems to me to address exactly what we have been discussing here.

[jerryl]

Mike,

Here's my frustration with your argument Forgive me as I paraphrase (and feel free to correct me.)

Mike: We need to make sure that we're not funding heretics as missionaries in IM and NM.

Reply: We have heretics in IM and NM? Where?

Mike: No, but...

Mike: We need to make sure our denominational leaders are really Christians.

Reply: Some of our leaders aren't really Christians? Who...

Mike: Well, our leaders are Christians, but...

IMHO, you're either trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist or you're not being genuine in your concern about who's running and who's doing the legwork in ABC-USA.

You're asking for a really big change. ABC-USA has traditionally been purposefully non-creedal. To say, 'well we need a creed now', needs more evidence to make a convincing argument.

jerryl

[pastormikejordan]

Hi Jerryl,

I appreciate the format in which you put my arguments; it helped me to think it through a bit more.

I think my concern is less with outright heresy in the denomination than it is with providing a clear and compelling reason to continue to invest in ABCUSA. A couple thoughts:

1. The common assertion from the right that this is not about homosexuality but an inexorable move away from the Christian faith. To me, a logical response from a group of people accused in this way would be to say, "Hey! We are Christians! Look, this is what we believe." This document doesn't do that. In fact, it almost seems to intentionally avoid doing that. That makes me nervous.

2. The Philadelphia Eagles are taking a killing from local fans here for drafting a quarterback with their first draft pick, when the perfectly serviceable (and often excellent) Donovan McNabb remains young and has the potential to be dominant. The team's logic? We'd just as soon have a quarterback ready when the need becomes pressing rather than have to scramble around to find someone when McNabb is too old or too injured to play anymore. The team's logic is right.

That same logic is at work here. You've heard Joshua talk about what happened in the UCC when "diversity" replaced "Christianity" as the unifying force of a denomination. I would just as soon find a mechanism to put the brakes on before we go speeding by.

There are so many conservatives of good will who would like to stay in the ABC because they value its missionaries, its history, and darn it, they'd just like to stay. But most of those conservatives at some point have said or will say "Where does it stop?" No, "it" shouldn't stop at ordaining women, "it" shouldn't stop at allowing for diversity on the issue of sexuality, but "it" should stop somewhere. What a statement of faith does is clearly articulate "it stops here. It stops at these core doctrines." If you insist that "it doesn't stop anywhere" is at the root of what it means to be a Baptist, then be prepared for pushback when you articulate it.

If you protect the core of the faith, if you put minimal boundaries on this thing, those conservatives will have a reason to stay. If you don't, if you insist that being Baptist means it doesn't stop anywhere, they have no reason to stay. Some will from sheer inertia, but many will not.

Finally, I have consistently said for years that the Anglican communion issues have much in common with us. In years past, the Anglican communion survived despite huge cultural differences, far more divergent than ABCUSA, because there were certain unspoken "bonds of affection" whereby member churches respected each other and knew how to live together. In recent years, those bonds have frayed because of actions taken by the American & Canadian branches (the ordination of practicing homosexuals and the Global South branches (allowing Global South bishops to "set up shop" on American turf, violating traditional boundaries).

So what is the Anglican communion currently doing? Drafting a covenant that "makes explicit the bonds of affection." Wonderfully British language, huh? What was before unspoken now must be spoken for us to stay together in a changing world. No longer do the British and Nigerian churches operate largely in ignorance of each other--thanks to the Internet, everyone knows everything!

All the same elements as the ABC crisis are in play--charges of being un-orthodox, pleas for autonomy, sex, lies, and videotape, etc. etc.

In some way, ABCUSA must "make explicit the bonds of affection." We now need to put into words just what has been holding us together for these many years. Or else just as surely as the world gets smaller, and we continue to know each other better, we will find more reasons to split apart than stay together.

I think ABCUSA recognizes this need and thus we have this statement. It attempts to put words on what binds us together. But some of us wonder, "Is this really what holds us together? Our polity?" It just seems, well, a little thin--if this is all the bonds of affection really are, then why bother exactly?

It seems to me that the bonds of affection actually are much deeper than that, that they relate to broad shared beliefs that we share. Now, in a shrinking world, with American Baptists desperate for an identity, is the time to make explicit those bonds of affection.

Mike

[Ed Pettibone]

[pastormikejordan]

[Ed Pettibone]

[pastormikejordan]

[Haruo]

[pastormikejordan]

[Haruo]

[pastormikejordan]

[Ed Pettibone]

[Ed Pettibone]

[pastormikejordan]

[Ed Pettibone]

[Ed Pettibone]