American Exceptionalism and Trayvon Martin

[Stephen Fox]

see link above

Jack makes some interesting points, but Richard Land is playing his own slimey game. Richard Land's history on Race is suspect because in the 80's he never held Paul Pressler and Jesse Helms and Albert Lee Smith to the bar he now holds President Obama; and he has distorted President Obama's remarks in my view to fit the plan of his good friend Karl Rove to regain the White House.
Even Adrian Roger's son has voiced his distress over Land's use of CP dollars for secular political advantage.

That said Jesse Jackson and others did play Wallace style politics against Corey Booker in the Newark NJ Mayor's race; recorded in the Oscar nominated Docu Street Games.

OTOH, Land to my knowledge is not on record taking the Tea Party to task on the GUNLAW Stand Your Ground in Florida, cause Land has too many chips in the game to challenge the Bush Family.

So Land needs to resign from the SBC. He can have a radio show with Rush Limbaugh or join Gov Huckabee on Fox News.

But Land has too much dirt on his hands to continue, too slimey and smarmy by half. He picks his demagogues on the down payment plan with Karl Rove's tip sheet as his guide.
Looking forward to reading a Chuck Warnock column at Ethicsdaily.com on all this soon. Here is a shout out; contact Curtis Freeman to put you in touch with Tim Tyson before you definitively take Land to the woodshed on this matter; and to the woodshed Land must go

[Gene Scarborough]

New observations of Richard Land an this tragedy:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2012/04/04/seriously-richard-land-needs-to-be-fired/

Richard Land, “ethics” spokesman for the Southern Baptist Convention, is doubling-down on his claim that the Trayvon Martin case is being overplayed by “race hustlers.”

His phrase: “race hustlers.” Who says that? I mean, besides white racists, is there anyone who says that?

Why hasn't the SBC fired this man yet?

The Southern Baptist Convention needs to fire Richard Land. Yesterday. Or sooner.

The problem with his remarks about the killing of Trayvon Martin, a black child gunned down with impunity more than a month ago in Florida, is not with the particular words Land used. He didn’t “misspeak.” He didn’t blurt out a single offensive phrase or two.

The problem is that Land’s remarks show that he is steeped in a racist mythology. It’s not his words that are problematic, but his worldview. That worldview is based on a story — a story of America, a story of Christianity — that is fundamentally, intrinsically and pervasively shaped by racism. This is the story that Richard Land believes and it is the only story he knows how to tell.

[Stephen Fox]

on what he calls Land's rant

At www.ethicsdaily.com

[Stephen Fox]

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/ ... ident?lite

[Stephen Fox]

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012 ... tml?ref=us

[Stephen Fox]

http://loyalopposition.blogs.nytimes.co ... nd-use/?hp

[Mrs Haruo]

I'm not a "cradle Baptist". I don't know any of the places or people Steven Fox keeps quoting. All I know is that in the time I spent in Florida, in 1972-1973 I ran into a pervasive racist attitude that sickened me. A tension in the air that made my hackles raise every time I and my multi-racial collection of friends among the sailors I went to photo school with from NAS Pensacola ventured out off base together. Dad felt the same way about Ft. Benning GA during WWII. I have had no desire to return to the South. Too hot in too many ways
Too many times I would be greeted "So nice to have you vist our church! Y'all come back now! And as soon as I would turn my back some church ladies would be discussing how all them Navy gals are sluts. "We're so proud of yew for serving your country!" horse pucky

[Timothy Bonney]

I felt the same way in Louisville at times Mrs. Haruo. I found I got stared at if I was in a restaurant with a friend who wasn't anglo. And the stares were not always friendly.

Of course we have racism in the north too. It is just more subtle at times.

[Ed Pettibone]

I'm not a "cradle Baptist". I don't know any of the places or people Steven Fox keeps quoting. All I know is that in the time I spent in Florida, in 1972-1973 I ran into a pervasive racist attitude that sickened me. A tension in the air that made my hackles raise every time I and my multi-racial collection of friends among the sailors I went to photo school with from NAS Pensacola ventured out off base together. Dad felt the same way about Ft. Benning GA during WWII. I have had no desire to return to the South. Too hot in too many ways
Too many times I would be greeted "So nice to have you vist our church! Y'all come back now! And as soon as I would turn my back some church ladies would be discussing how all them Navy gals are sluts. "We're so proud of yew for serving your country!" horse pucky

Ed: So Mrs H. other than making it clear that you have no desire to return to the South what is you point as related to this thread. I have been to Seattle a few time I consider it an OK city but nothing special. I was back there in 1972 and saw the signs saying We welcome tourist to Washington but please do not stay. I was there again in 1998 on a mission trip. The first time I was there was when I shipped out for Korea from Ft. Lewis in 1954. Like most cities where there is one or more military facilities merchants where glad to have us spend money but otherwise something of a nuisance. Around the city there is some great scenery, much more so than Florida, IMHO. The weather was lousy .

But then If you are in some way trying to relate you experience in Pensacola to the Trevon Martian case. I would suggest that you consider first that the two are events are separated by at least 39 years, Second from 1980 to 2011 the population of Florida nearly doubled. Third Florida populations from one county to another are more different than most states. In most parts of the state, only one third of the current population are native Floridians and the majority of the others have come there from northern states.

Pensacola is on the Florida Panhandle Gulf coast just a few miles from the Alabama state line on the west. It is very different from Stanford near the Atlantic on East Coast. Close to 400 miles separate the two. In my experience living in, owning property in and traveling Florida 1985-1996, plus annual trips to visit from 75 till 85. I have found the Panhandle to be more redneck that the rest of the state. That is not to say their are not rednecks in other parts of the state including Stanford . However their are racist every where, including Seattle. But neither of us or any one one these boards, to the best of my knowledge are acquainted with the defendant in the Trevon Martian case, therefore while we can speculate we can not legitimately profess to know his motive. I am at this point expecting to see this brought out in court.

BTW, in my opinion Neighborhood watch people have no business carrying a weapon while acting in that capacity. I do not know what the Florida law is in that regard. I do know that when I worked as a paid security officer in gated communities in the Tampa area 94-95, my license did not permit me to carry a weapon while on the job. In fact not even those few working for our company who had the additional training and a weapons endorsement on their license where not permuted to carry a weapon while working a residential area.

[Timothy Bonney]

Ed: So Mrs H. other than making it clear that you have no desire to return to the South what is you point as related to this thread.

I thought she was pretty clear. Racism is alive and well in some parts in the south. Are you going to deny that? And why did you feel it necessary to come to the defense of the south by taking a pot shot at Seattle because Mrs. Hauro didn't like the area she was visiting?

[Mrs Haruo]

Sanford, Stanford, Fla? I must admit I heard the town mentioned but never knew where it was back when I was in "Lower Alabama" - otherwise known as Pensacola. When Ed was being shipped through Ft. Lewis to Korea, I was being shipped out of the maternity ward at Swedish Hospital in Seattle to a little farm across Lake Washington. My 9 year old brother wanted me shipped back cause he wanted a brother, not a sister, but my parents kept me anyway, Mom and Dad wanted a little girl so he was stuck with me. Gramma said I looked like a little Japanese baby, and Mom's roomate thought that was a terrible thing to say, but Mom and Dad had little tollerance for racists, so they ignored her. Besides, we had Nisei (second generaton immigrants from Japan ) all around our neighborhood, so I fit right in. 1972 I remember well. The Seattle area was grumpy about losing a major contract for the Boeing Super Sonic Transport and a lot of folks were out of work. The area around my parents farm was filling up with tract homes "Full of people from California" as my folks put it, and tourist harvesting was a major industry in the aftermath of the 1962 World's Fair. We really needed people to come and spend money, but not to stay.

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: So Mrs H. other than making it clear that you have no desire to return to the South what is you point as related to this thread.

Tim B.: I thought she was pretty clear. Racism is alive and well in some parts in the south. Are you going to deny that? And why did you feel it necessary to come to the defense of the south by taking a pot shot at Seattle because Mrs. Hauro didn't like the area she was visiting?

ED: And Tim I think I have been pretty clear in saying that the South is not the only area where racism is alive and well. And as Mrs. H indicates in the post below yours, Pensacola is not infrequently referred to as South Alabama. I have also heard it referred to as East Mobile. And note In the post I first replied to, she was talking about 1972 & 73. Overt racism in the south is also more subtle today than it was back then. She was also talking about her experience as a military person. Just as my first sour taste of Seattle was for me in 1954. Something I really don't expect you to understand.

[KeithE]

Sanford, Stanford, Fla? I must admit I heard the town mentioned but never knew where it was back when I was in "Lower Alabama" - otherwise known as Pensacola. When Ed was being shipped through Ft. Lewis to Korea, I was being shipped out of the maternity ward at Swedish Hospital in Seattle to a little farm across Lake Washington. My 9 year old brother wanted me shipped back cause he wanted a brother, not a sister, but my parents kept me anyway, Mom and Dad wanted a little girl so he was stuck with me. Gramma said I looked like a little Japanese baby, and Mom's roomate thought that was a terrible thing to say, but Mom and Dad had little tollerance for racists, so they ignored her. Besides, we had Nisei (second generaton immigrants from Japan ) all around our neighborhood, so I fit right in. 1972 I remember well. The Seattle area was grumpy about losing a major contract for the Boeing Super Sonic Transport and a lot of folks were out of work. The area around my parents farm was filling up with tract homes "Full of people from California" as my folks put it, and tourist harvesting was a major industry in the aftermath of the 1962 World's Fair. We really needed people to come and spend money, but not to stay.

Brings back memories.
0) 4 episodes in Swedish Hospital with pulmonary emboli
1) I do remember 1972 in Seattle. I was just graduating in march from UW engineering school and it was near impossible to get an engineering job in Seattle with all the laid off Boeing engineers. SST stood for Seatlle Stands Tall as wel as Super Sonic Transport. Seattle was fallen at that time prior to Microsft.
2) fast forward to 1977 and I was married and living in Orlando. Sanford was a sleepy town north of Orlando where we occasionally went to the Dog Track at. It was clearly outside Orlando suburbia and looked like a blue collar town w/o gated communities.

[KeithE]

I am glad that charges are brought forward and that the Trayvon-Zimmerman incident will be tried in court with evidence not by our preset prejudices. Yes the south has racial prejudices and backlash against that as well. But it isn't limited to just the South

[Chris]

The Florida law is an exercise in thoughtless stupidity.

Amen. This morning, I saw a Florida defense lawyer interviewed on CBS. This lawyer has defended approximately two dozen people using the "Stand your ground" law. He has won acquittal for all but 2. I predict Zimmerman will walk free, and Florida will be plagued with race riots.

[Chris]

Had Z followed training there would have been no incident.

Is there any evidence that Zimmerman actually had any training at all? In my city, I don't think Neighborhood Watch participants get any training.

[Mrs Haruo]

We have Neighborhood watch organizations in our area, and the ONLY training is to "Call 911 if you observe anything out of the ordinary, and get to know your neighbors so you know what IS normal"

[Ed Pettibone]

We have Neighborhood watch organizations in our area, and the ONLY training is to "Call 911 if you observe anything out of the ordinary, and get to know your neighbors so you know what IS normal"

Ed: Mrs H. That is a good summary of the info found at this site http://www.city.cleveland.oh.us/clnd_im ... aining.pdf And if this advice had been drilled into Zimmerman's head we would not be discussing the events there.

The police need to have accurate information as quickly as possible about a suspicious activity or crime in
progress. When observing a suspicious person, vehicle or activity, or crime in progress, immediately call the
police to report the activity and also alert your neighbors to the crime.
You should never attempt to apprehend a suspect. This is the law enforcement officer’s job.

[Gene Scarborough]

Anyone here ever read William Faulkner?

I used to think it was fiction---until I lived in a number of small southern towns and met the characters face-to-face!

[Stephen Fox]

Once again I trump Scarborough with a book I will list soon

But the point of this note is to send the conversation to Baptist History thread and the latest on Richard Land and Baptist History.

As for Southern Intellectuals.....

I own this book, and I doubt Scarborough has ever heard of it. Good closing line about the Point and the Dance.

http://books.google.com/books/about/Ret ... FXqWr5r4QC

The question remains: What has Scarborough read in the last five years?

[Stephen Fox]

http://www.sitemason.com/files/cPB6r6/S ... Martin.pdf

[Gene Scarborough]

Wow, Stephen---I am so distressed with your disrespect----for all others except yourself