2010 Baptist General association of Virginia

[Chris]

I just returned from the 2010 meeting of the BGAV, which, this year was a mere 14 miles from my front door. I ran into Rob Marus of ABP, a forum member here.

The body passed the proposed 2011 budget ($13,350,000) which is smaller than last year $14 million and some change. Virginia churches can give to any of three "giving plans -- one leans toward SBC, one towards CBF, and one that's somewhat neutral.

The Resolutions Committee brought 4 resolution before the convention for vote. A fifth resolution arrived late, and was so complicated, the committee decided not to present it (good decision).
Resolution #1 was the obligatory thanks to the host city, to the state staff, the mission board, the executive director, ad nauseam. This is so time-consuming and worthless. I abstained.
Resolution #2 in a nutshell, called for more "support" for pastors and staff. I voted Yea.
Resolution #3 address the "crisis of immigration". It was so nebulous, I had to abstain. It addressed the lack of federal government enforcement of laws (Romans 13); being kind to people (Matthew chaps 7 and 13); treatment of foreigners (Deuteronomy 24).
Resolution #4 addressed the current governor's (Bob McDonnel, R-Va) desire to privatize state-owned liquor stores. The resolution opposed the idea because it will lead to more alcoholism. I voted in favor (retain state ownership).

All four resolutions passed.


The item that caused the most debate, was a "recommendation from the Religious Liberty Committee" regarding the Texas text book mess. It called for honoring the labors of Thomas Jefferson, George Mason, James Madison, and John Leland. It criticized the works of David Barton, W. Cleon Skousen, and re-constructionist authors . It called on Virginia Baptists "to be diligent in resisting any such mistaken version of our history." Amid the debate, an amendment was offered that would remove the references to Barton, Skousen, and the unnamed authors. The amendment was supported by the chairman of that committee, and the resolution passed, as amended.

Election of officers for 2011 was a mixed bag.

Only one person was nominated for President (the out-going First-Vice-President). The nomination speech was poetry -- literally. The nomination speech was the best entertainment of the day. Robert Bass (a Moderate) was elected President for 2011, without opposition.

There was only one nominee for 1st Vice-President. Dr. Mark Crosston, of Suffolk. He was elected. To my knowledge, he is the first African-American to be elected to this office. I don't know where he stands on denominational politics.

There were two nominees for 2nd-Vice-President (the starting gate for being President in 2013). Dr. Allen Jesse got 74.3% of the vote. Dr. Larry Coleman got 25.7% of the votes. Since a known-Moderate nominated Coleman, I presume Dr. Jesse is the more Conservative of the two.

The Affinity Committee gave its report, and I was surprised to learn that "we have a cluster of Georgia churches in BGAV." Welcome Georgians. We might even let William's church in.

The principle speaker at each worship event was Reggie McNeal, who is a motivational speaker out of Dallas. I believe I heard that he teaches at a seminary in California. I think it's the one Michael Westmoreland-White was at. (I think that be Fuller).


My "Evaluation".... As requested, I filled out a 4-page evaluation of the convention. I had counted, and discovered that the 4 resolutions reported out of committee, averaged 250 words. Do you know how long it takes to read 1000 words, debate 'em, and vote on 'em? I suggested that, in the future, resolutions be restricted to 150 words. Any worthwhile resolution can be stated in 150 words!

[Dave Roberts]

I wish I could have been there. Croston hasn't been much of a denominational politician. All resolutions need at least 25 "whereas" clauses .

[HowellS]

Chris,

While I no longer pastor in Virginia, I still keep up with the goings on of the BGAV from afar. I had the privilege of serving on the Religious Liberty Committee until I had to resign because of my move to NM. I represented one of the churches that gives through the SBC giving track and brought a more conservative voice to the committee. While I may not have seen eye-to-eye with everyone on the committee, they were all gracious and we never had any contentious meetings. I have followed the Religious Liberty Committee's resolution and will have a post up probably on Thursday interacting with it. I'm glad they took the specific names out.

As for Allen Jesse, you are correct that he is more conservative. Allen is the pastor of Community Heights BC in Claypool Hill, VA, in Tazewell County, in the far southwest part of Virginia. Allen and I were in the same association (New Lebanon Baptist Assoc.). Allen is a great guy, very soft-spoken and humble. Although he is in perhaps one of the most conservative associations in the BGAV, he is someone who can relate well to a good cross section of Virginia Baptists. Since the 2nd VP is more ceremonial, I think that Allen's election is a good thing overall. Glad you were able to make the convention this year. Thanks and God bless

[Stephen Fox]

I just put up a post at SBC Trends in the Jim Demint Thread on this matter. Hope some of you will check there.
Skousen's son Paul has responded at Howell Scott's blog and I have linked the New Yorker article on his father at Scott's Blog.
Could evolve into an interesting conversation indeed.
Would be super if Chris or Jim Somerville could have Rob James engage Paul Skousen at Howll Scott's blog; hoping all participants will read the New Yorker piece of October 13 about the influence of Father Skousen on the Tea Party.
Most worthy of questioning Frank Page on this matter as he has been implicated at Religion Dispatches.
Also hoping from Rob James to Mercer Prez Underwood, a close reading of Jill Lepore's The Whites of Their Eyes will inform this burgeoning conversation.

[Big Daddy Weaver]

It is an interesting discussion over at

Cleon Skousen's son Paul is defending his father's name. The elder Skousen was a target of the BGAV resolution draft on religious liberty. I believe his name was removed before the resolution was passed. Paul Skousen is upset that his father is being characterized as a right-wing kook. If the younger Skousen is upset about that, I suspect he is in a constant state of being upset.

Cleon Skousen was an interesting man as his - a well known conspiracy theorist (New World Order/One World Government/Rockefellers and WallStreet conspired to elect Jimmy Carter, etc.), anti-communist crusader (John Birch Society) and a Mormon theologian (specialized in endtimes prophecy). Glenn Beck has claimed to be heavily influenced by Skousen's writings.

[Stephen Fox]

Hope you read it immediately, BDidd, and comment at Scott's blog and bring the best of Baylor delegation to this discussion

Could be seminal indeed.

[Chris]

[Stephen Fox]

took a look at all this, blogged and maybe engaged the discussion here after looking at the exchange between Paul Skousen and Howell Scott at From Law2Grace.

Would elevate this discussion considerably.

[HowellS]

[Big Daddy Weaver]

I'm not a big fan of throwing the baby out with the bathwater and that's basically what the BGAV would have been doing by dropping the phrase separation of church and state.

Thankfully they didn't go that route.

Sure, that phrase "separation of church state" is understood differently by different people. But the truth is, and I'm certainly not the first person to point this out, that very very few people throughout American history have understood the concept of separation in its absolute strongest form. When that phrase is used, especially by Baptists, it is rarely if ever meant to imply that there should be no interaction between the institutions of church and state, that religion and politics are to be completely separated.

And religious liberty by itself is not sufficient. Without separation, what can of religious liberty are we really talking about?

I don't want the abandon the phrase. It's an important part of American history and an important part of Baptist identity. But I would like to see future resolutions give that phrase more meaning, with future resolutions attempting to tackle specific, pressing church-state issues.

The BGAV was responding to the David Barton's and Cleon Skousen's of the world and their historical revisionism of the worst kind. Kudos to the BGAV.

[HowellS]

Aaron,

I think that you have perhaps unintentionally proved the point I was trying to make. While Baptists have a strong history of religious liberty in America, what you see as an essential phrase ("separation of church and state") I see as unnecessarily perjorative when it comes to dealing with free exercise and establishment issues that affect not only Baptists, but others as well. When "separation of church and state" is used, some conservative Baptists hear something negative. That may not be the intent behind the use of the phrase, but the perception and perhaps the reality is that the phrase can be used in a way that is anti-Christian. I don't think that it has to be used in that way or that people such as yourself or the BGAV use it in an anti-Christian way. On the contrary, you and the Religious Liberty Committee obviously believes the phrase to be such an integral part of how we view the First Amendment that to not use it, in your words, is to "throw the baby out with the bathwater."

I know that we will perhaps not agree on the use of the phrase, but I wanted to at least give you an opinion from one who served on that committee. In my experience, there was much more agreement than disagreement when it came to the major religious liberty issues affecting Virginia Baptists and the nation. Maybe because of my legal background, but I think that the resolution could have garnered even more support and been stronger with different language. I would have advocated for that in the committee, but would have supported the resolution that was presented. I do think that the specific individuals should not have been named, and the committee did in fact revise that paragraph to remove the named people. Thanks for your insight on this issue. God bless,

[Chris]

[Chris]

[Neil Heath]

[HowellS]

Chris and Neil,

I don't necessarily want to get bogged down in the debate about America's founding, although I do think that the whole issue of "separation of church and state" and "American was founded as a Christian nation" might well illustrate the point. As a conservative Christian, I would not consider the First Amendment as "anti-Christian" although the ACLU certainly has taken positions that I would find incompatible with my Christian beliefs. Was the United States of America founded as a "Christian nation?" No, I don't think so, but I also think that this is loaded language just as much as the separation language. Is there any doubt that Christianity and Judeo/Christian principles influenced the founders? We might argue about the extent of the influence, but the reality is that Wiccans or Muslims were not an influence during the formative years of our Republic.

That being said, is the principle of "separation of church and state" part of the hisorical record, going all the way back to Thomas Jefferson and others? Yes. But, that phrase has taken on a life of its own. It does mean different things to different people. Language can either bring people together or it can drive people apart. In the context of the BGAV's resolution from the Religious Liberty Committee, my opinion is that the resolution could have been stronger and garnered near unanimous support from most of the conservative pastors at the annual meeting if it would have refrained from using the separation language. Others have and will continue to disagree with my analysis and that is fine. I just think that there is much more agreement on some of these principles than either extreme would like to admit is possible. That is all. Thanks and God bless,

[Bruce Gourley]

[HowellS]

[Bruce Gourley]

[HowellS]

[Bruce Gourley]

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: Bruce would you be more definitive as to your remark which follows?

Quote Bruce "Historians also recognize that many Baptists of the past have not lived up to their own faith language, particularly in regards to attitudes toward Catholics in the 19th and 20th centuries, in terms of appropriating political processes to deny rights to Catholics."

[Bruce Gourley]

Christian Theocrat / Reconstructionist Gary DeMar has .

[Bruce Gourley]

[Haruo]

[Chris]

Is Virginia the only state convention that has met so far?

Are there reports from other states, or was I the only messenger this year?