What's wrong with this handling of a clergy abuse case?

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What's wrong with this handling of a clergy abuse case?

Postby William Thornton » Thu Apr 01, 2010 9:30 am

Pastor pleads guilty to child sex crimes, is out of that church and attends another while his case is handled. His new church sends this letter to the judge before he is sentenced:

The Letter of Calvary Baptist Church officials

"Honorable Judge Loyd:

We, the staff and deacons of Calvary Baptist Church, Greenwood, Indiana, are writing regarding Daniel J. Moore, whom you have scheduled for sentencing April 8, 2010. Neither Dan nor his attorney is aware of this correspondence.

For the past ten months Dan has, at our invitation, worshipped among us. He has done this quietly, humbly and essentially anonymously as it is his desire to avoid drawing attention to himself and for his fear of embarrassment to the church.

Dan has been broken and is tearfully repentant, remorseful, regretful and ashamed. Daily, he has spent hours in Bible study, soul searching and spiritual regrowth.

We as staff and deacons stand ready and eager to help Dan in his continued healing and restoration in any way possible. We are writing to inform you of our availability as a support and accountability group for Dan both during and after his incarceration. If you desire or require any communication with us prior to your passing sentence we are certainly available for that also.

Our faith is about God’s forgiveness and restoration. It is certainly not about condoning the transgression but we are seeking to restore the person. If our responsibilities in helping Dan can in any way work hand in hand with your duties, it would be our privilege."


The letter is signed by staff and deacons of his new church.
What's the problem with this?
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Re: What's wrong with this handling of a clergy abuse case?

Postby Dave Roberts » Thu Apr 01, 2010 10:27 am

It is an interesting letter for mercy or clemency. The reality is that the church seems to confuse forgiveness with the legal responsibility to pay one's debt to society and to make restitution for the broken lives left in the wake. Forgiveness is critical, but so is cleaning up the mess left behind by the failure. The tone seems much like what the Catholic Church has taken in restoring priests with forgiveness while trying to lessen legal responsibilities.
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Re: What's wrong with this handling of a clergy abuse case?

Postby johnfariss » Thu Apr 01, 2010 11:01 am

I must admit I am not familiar with the details of Moore's offenses/accusations. That said, however, the letter sounds good and has some good points: that they will continue to work with the man both during and after incarceration, and be some sort of accountability partner with him. Too many Christians are ready to turn their back on someone who is found guilty of a crime, disown them, pretend they no longer exist, etc.; I have seen this happen. On the other hand, I see some potential problems. For one thing, the "accountability partnership" arrangement would seem to presuppose honesty, and as a former law-enforcement officer, I have doubts that a pedophile will or can be that honest. I mean really: what child molester is going to tell an accountability partner, "Oh, I slipped this week and had sex with a kid," or even, "I was really, REALLY tempted this week to have sex with a kid, although I didn't." A counselor or psychologist highly trained and specializing in pedophilia may can tell when a "client" is lying, as can a good interrogator/investigator, but the average pastor or deacon is out of his area of expertise to deal with such a person; in fact, I can envision a scenario in which a pedophile, lying about feelings/attractions in a religious setting, would be so pressured by the guilt (assuming they are not also psychopathic) as to commit more and possibly worse crimes, and covering it up better, possibly even by murder. And although theologically I want to believe that God can change one's life and attractions and everything else, pragmatically, I "know" that there is no cure for pedophilia (assuming that is the nature of this man's problem), and that a pedophile will inevitably strike again, given the right circumstances. Consequently, any leniency based on such an arrangement as suggested or implied in this letter would be an invitation for future offenses. That they welcome him to participate in worship is good; that they will befriend him and keep him in an environment of exposure to the gospel is good; but if they assume a major change will happen as a result, and that afterwards, he can be trusted around children is an invitation to disaster. I hate to be so cynical, but it is what experience has taught me.

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Re: What's wrong with this handling of a clergy abuse case?

Postby Ed Pettibone » Thu Apr 01, 2010 11:05 am

Ed: William says "The letter is signed by staff and deacons of his new church.
What's the problem with this? "

My answer is; Only that it is being made public. I was acquainted with this church several years ago while doing a church planting praxis in the area, and was impressed, despite its SBC affiliation. Check out their web site. BTW, I do not know D.M

And Dave I do not hear the pastor and deacons asking for either mercy or clemency. They clearly say "We are writing to inform you of our availability as a support and accountability group for Dan both during and after his incarceration. Perhaps they should not assume "his incarceration"?
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Re: What's wrong with this handling of a clergy abuse case?

Postby Tim Dahl » Thu Apr 01, 2010 11:07 am

This is great, in that it doesn't ask that he not go to jail. Instead, it provides a willingness to participate in his restoration "during and after incarceration." Is there something wrong with their attempts of confidentiality? Should churches not offer themselves to be used by the courts in appropriate situations?

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Re: What's wrong with this handling of a clergy abuse case?

Postby Ed Pettibone » Thu Apr 01, 2010 12:22 pm

Ed: for John Fariss

3/10/10

FRANKLIN, Ind. -- A former central Indiana minister pleaded guilty Thursday to felony charges stemming from a sexual relationship he had with a 15-year-old church member.



Former New Whiteland Baptist Church pastor Daniel Moore, 50, pleaded guilty to felony child solicitation and sexual misconduct charges.

Court documents indicated that police began investigating Moore after the girl's parents suspected a sexual relationship.

The teen told investigators that between January and March 2009, she and Moore kissed or engaged in sex acts at least seven times.

"I believe a lot of it was uncovered by finding notes and text messages in the young girl's bedroom," Johnson County Prosecutor Brad Cooper said last year. "I think there was some resistance by the victim to start with to report this, but I believe the persistence of parents had the young girl making this report to the police."

Johnson County deputy prosecutor Doug Cummins said Moore will be sentenced to 10 years in prison if a judge accepts the plea agreement.

Under the agreement, Moore must register as a sex offender and seek treatment in prison. Sentencing is set for April 8.
-30-

Note John, by definition sex acts with a 15 year old are technically outside the realm of pedophilia.
Pedophilia has to do with attraction to and or acting on such attraction involving prepubescent children.
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Re: What's wrong with this handling of a clergy abuse case?

Postby Haruo » Thu Apr 01, 2010 12:28 pm

Without knowing (much, much) more about the sinner, the sin, the church, and what else the church may have done, I can't say. If this is all the church has done or is doing, then the lack of evidence of protection of its young people (and concern for same) is probably a major fault. I am not a trained psychologist, but I find it implausible (based on extrapolation from my experience as an alcoholic) that pedophilia is as monotone as johnfariss makes it out to be. I agree with Ed that the letter doesn't appear to be a plea for any special clemency on the court's part (justice should always be tempered with mercy, imo) and that in this forum it was probably a poor choice to break the church's and the sinner's anonymity. But in the absence of more data, these are merely comments on the comments, not responses to the question.

Not knowing more, I am favorably impressed but cautious.

I wrote the foregoing prior to the appearance of Ed's second post, which would modify my answers a bit but I don't have time to do it now...
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Re: What's wrong with this handling of a clergy abuse case?

Postby johnfariss » Thu Apr 01, 2010 12:59 pm

Ed is right, the 15 year old issue makes pedophilia more "iffy." Some 15 year olds look more like 20, and others more like 12. Now that does nothing to lessen the fact that regardless of appearances, it was still RAPE (since a 15 year old does not have the legal capacity to give consent to sex), and it was still a supposedly Christian man having sexual relations outside of marriage, when he knew better from a legal, moral, and spiritual perspective. Whether this is an isolated incident in the man's life based on a single moral lapse, or is just the tip of the iceburg, remains an open question. Pedophiles typically do not ask for a birth certificate to establish whether the victim is a child or a pre-puberescent teen, they go by the appearance of what excites them. If it turns out that the sexual attraction was based on the girl having the appearance of an older, young woman, pediophilia is probably not an issue, although that should not lessen any penalities, and I believe it should disqualify the man from any future pastoral ministry. Even then, it is important to ascertain whether this is an isolated event, or if the man had abused other young women, which would indicate the pattern of a sexual predator. Again the letter has good points, I am just concerned, first with the possibility that this church is approaching it from a position of what amounts to good-intentioned navivete, and second, even if they are not, what message it sends to other churches, equally well-intentioned but less-well equipped to deal such issues as including pedophilia and sexual predators.

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Re: What's wrong with this handling of a clergy abuse case?

Postby William Thornton » Thu Apr 01, 2010 5:46 pm

I got the case from Christa Brown's blog: Church letter of support for pastor-predator

The letter seems to strike the right notes in that it is not a plea for the judge to forego jail time nor does it say what a wonderful father, husband, and pastor this guy is and was. It expresses availability for whatever measures of accountability might be helpful. The expression of brokeness, repentance, regret, and remorse along with the hours of Bible study etc has to be ignored. Presumably, the man gets a chance to express his remorse in court.

But here is what Christa, who is nothing if not astute about these things, notes in her blog. The guy has been in his new church "essentially anonymously" for the past ten months, implying that most of the congregation was unaware of the serious charges against him. Uh oh.

In a case like this is it essential that the church be informed, or just staff and key leadership? I'm inclined to the position that the church should be informed of the charges, of the restrictions on the man's interaction in the church, and on the staff's goal of helping the man. I can't imagine a parent in the church not wanting to be informed that the man was among them.

Christa asks, " how do you imagine the victim and her family might feel when they see such a letter from other Southern Baptist church officials?" I would suppose that they may be unhappy that the man has any support at all but I don't see how the 'Southern Baptist' or other church should not at some stage try and help the guy. He should never pastor again. You can't judge from the information given what the man's previous church did with respect to the victims and I don't know that his present church can be blamed. Of course, it is Christa's position that the SBC in some fashion take responsibility for these crimes.
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Re: What's wrong with this handling of a clergy abuse case?

Postby Ed Pettibone » Thu Apr 01, 2010 10:05 pm

Timothy Bonney wrote:I had some concern also when I read that he had been attending the church anonymously with the staff's knowledge. If I had a child in that church how would I feel? I think I'd be upset.


Ed: Tim and William, in reality, how long could any person attend the churches you pastor and remain anonymous to many in the congregation?

And John F. I think in Indiana this might be statutory rape but that was not the charge reported in the new item that I found. I do agree that this fellow seems to be a "Christian man having sexual relations outside of marriage, when he knew better from a legal, moral, and spiritual perspective."
Is that the unpardonable sin? Not as I understand that term.

As for your question "what message it sends to other churches, equally well-intentioned but less-well equipped to deal such issues as including pedophilia and sexual predators" I would hope it sends a message that all churches need to prepare for the potential of such a sad happening occurring among their own. And how to deal redemptively with the issue. In the past 20 years there has been a ton of good materials developed to help churches with such preparation. I would suggest starting with a good Primer of the academic and legal language applied to sexual deviation. They need also to be aware that legal terms are not uniform as they apply to different Political & Economic areas. I would also suggest some classes to help parents of teens learn to retake control of said teens. What message(s) would you want them to get?
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Re: What's wrong with this handling of a clergy abuse case?

Postby Christa Brown » Fri Apr 02, 2010 12:30 am

Ed Pettibone said:
I would also suggest some classes to help parents of teens learn to retake control of said teens.

I would suggest that it doesn't have much of anything to do with teens who are out of control, and that such a statement reflects an ugly kid-blaming sort of attitude that is far too common. In reality, it typically has more to do with a teen who is TOO controlled, and too faith-filled, and too obedient, and too compliant, and too trusting of authority.
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Re: What's wrong with this handling of a clergy abuse case?

Postby William Thornton » Fri Apr 02, 2010 7:18 am

Ed Pettibone wrote:I would also suggest some classes to help parents of teens learn to retake control of said teens. What message(s) would you want them to get?


Come on, Ed. Blame the victim here?
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Re: What's wrong with this handling of a clergy abuse case?

Postby Ed Pettibone » Fri Apr 02, 2010 9:54 am

Christa Brown wrote:
Ed Pettibone said:
I would also suggest some classes to help parents of teens learn to retake control of said teens.

I would suggest that it doesn't have much of anything to do with teens who are out of control, and that such a statement reflects an ugly kid-blaming sort of attitude that is far too common. In reality, it typically has more to do with a teen who is TOO controlled, and too faith-filled, and too obedient, and too compliant, and too trusting of authority.


Ed; And Christa, I am persuaded that it normal for the "typical" Teen age girl to flaunt her sexuality just as much as the authority figures around her will allow. And male authority figures are often their primary targets. At what age do you suddenly insist young people assume some responsibility for their actions. Are you familiar with the old expression it takes two to tango. You may have been TOO controlled, and too obedient, and too compliant, and too trusting of authority. But I do not believe you can not legitimately project that into every case or even most of the clergy sexual misconduct that some one turns you on to.

Indeed the issue needs to be addressed but as much so in the direction of preventing even the first encounter as in prosecuting / persecuting offending adult. And I am am convinced that teens need to be included in the discussion, rather than being treated as helpless victims. Thus I am back to the one line in my prior post which to which you chose to reply "I would also suggest some classes to help parents of teens learn to retake control of said teens." A properly designed class has in my experience included sessions on avoiding the excesses you seem to assume are inherent in my statement.

And William, my intent is not to blame anyone, I am much more interested in finding a solution. And having worked in public schools and other social services for many years I am persuaded that giving the kids a automatic pass in every case does not do that.
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Re: What's wrong with this handling of a clergy abuse case?

Postby Ed Pettibone » Fri Apr 02, 2010 10:15 am

Timothy Bonney wrote:
Ed Pettibone wrote:
Ed: Tim and William, in reality, how long could any person attend the churches you pastor and remain anonymous to many in the congregation?


Tim: In some very large Baptist churches, a long long time.

TIm , you answered a question other than the one I asked. :wink: Calvary in Greenwood, Indiana however is not "very" large, certainly not a mega church. I am curious, as to how their letter to the judge was made public, and why.

And Tim I have not suggested that Provocative dress or behavior that you acknowledge "does exist in the teen population" is an excuse for the abuse of power, and spiritual leadership by a pastor in having an inappropriate relationship with an underage person but is is a factor and until adequately addressed will continue to trigger such events. What I have suggested is that Preachers / pastors are human and have hormones like the rest of us. And I have suggested is that we need to focus on the problem, that includes all facets NOT just on who is to blame and what to do with them after the fact. So please get off of your Sanctimonious, Holier than thou high horse.
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Re: What's wrong with this handling of a clergy abuse case?

Postby johnfariss » Fri Apr 02, 2010 10:28 am

I have to agree with Timothy here. There are "Long Island Lolita's" in the world, but no amount of sexuality on the part of a 15 year old girl absolves the guilt/blame/responsibility on the part of an grown man, especially one 50+ years old. As someone said, it takes two to tango, and the adult has to take that responsibility even if the under-age person does not. To assume that this girl is out of control (sexually) presupposes a lot for which evidence, at least in this forum, is lacking.

I understand what forgiveness is, and I know that sexual relations outside marriage is NOT the unpardonable sin. I have never argued otherwise. But forgiveness is one thing, and accepting the consequences for one's sin is another, as Dave pointed out early in this conversation.

And by the way: statutory rape IS still rape. We may not regard it as heinous as having sexual relations with a child of 10 or 12 or under, but is not that our human depravity speaking, and not the law, or perhaps not even the Bible?

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Re: What's wrong with this handling of a clergy abuse case?

Postby William Thornton » Fri Apr 02, 2010 11:36 am

Ed, the guy was 49 and the girl 15. He was her pastor. You want to blame the girl's parents? Blame her?

You are out to lunch on this one. See what your wife or grown daughters (if you have some) think of this.
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Re: What's wrong with this handling of a clergy abuse case?

Postby Ed Pettibone » Fri Apr 02, 2010 11:53 am

johnfariss wrote:I have to agree with Timothy here. There are "Long Island Lolita's" in the world, but no amount of sexuality on the part of a 15 year old girl absolves the guilt/blame/responsibility on the part of an grown man, especially one 50+ years old. As someone said, it takes two to tango, and the adult has to take that responsibility even if the under-age person does not. To assume that this girl is out of control (sexually) presupposes a lot for which evidence, at least in this forum, is lacking.

I understand what forgiveness is, and I know that sexual relations outside marriage is NOT the unpardonable sin. I have never argued otherwise. But forgiveness is one thing, and accepting the consequences for one's sin is another, as Dave pointed out early in this conversation.

And by the way: statutory rape IS still rape. We may not regard it as heinous as having sexual relations with a child of 10 or 12 or under, but is not that our human depravity speaking, and not the law, or perhaps not even the Bible?

John


Ed: And William, Trudy pretty much sees the discussions on these board as a waste of time, be cause folk tend to talk past one another rather that having true engagement.

And John, who here has suggested that the former pastor who's actions engendered this thread has not or should not accept the consequences for his sin. And need i remind you he was not charged with either rape or statutory rape, under Indiana law. I agree that the subjects actions where reprehensible, however I believe from the information at hand that Calvary Baptist Church of Greenwood Indiana. Has taken a good approach to the situation there, with the possible exception of the letter being made public..

No where did I or any one else any thing about "this girl" being "out of control (sexually), In my comment about a class to help parents regain control of their teens I think the context will show that I had moved from the specifics of this case to possible ways to address the broader issue in a positive manner. My secondary point is and has been that by absolving all victims every where and at all times of all responsibility we compound the problem.
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Re: What's wrong with this handling of a clergy abuse case?

Postby johnfariss » Fri Apr 02, 2010 2:59 pm

Ed, you are right in that according to the article you cited, statutory rape was not mentioned. According to it, the minister plead guilt to "felony child solicitation" and "sexual misconduct charges." As a former law enforcement officer, I tend to read articles like this between the lines. Note (1) he "plead" guilty, not he was "found" guilty. That suggests that he did not go to trial, but rather entered a plea bargain arrangement; (2) note that plea bargains are exactly that: the result of a "bargaining session," and in those, a district attorney (or states attorney, circuit solicitor, whatever the title in in the particular state) begins with the harshest charge that the evidence supports, while the defense attorney looks to lessor included offences, and the two bargain, trying to balance justice, the uncertainty of a trial, sometimes the emotional state, cooperation, and reliability of witnesses and victims, and frankly of costs--dollars and cents--in order to serve "justice" in some manner. I may be guilty of assuming the worst, but it is an informed opinion based on my own experiences; if I were a betting man (and I wasn't, even before I became a Christian), I would bet there was rape/statutory rape involved, especially as the article states, "The teen told investigators that between January and March 2009, she and Moore kissed or engaged in sex acts at least seven times."

You also said, "No where did I or any one else any thing about 'this girl' being 'out of control (sexually)'." In my comment about a class to help parents regain control of their teens I think the context will show that I had moved from the specifics of this case to possible ways to address the broader issue in a positive manner. My secondary point is and has been that by absolving all victims every where and at all times of all responsibility we compound the problem." OK, if that is what you meant. It is, however, not the way I took it based on your wording and the juxaposition of your statement, "I would also suggest some classes to help parents of teens learn to retake control of said teens" with the content of your 10:05 PM entry on 04/01. Others seemed to take it the same way too. But we all sometimes mis-speak, I ccertainly do. And in the print medium, there is not the availability to immediately clarify a statement as there is in face-to-face conversations.

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Re: What's wrong with this handling of a clergy abuse case?

Postby Ed Pettibone » Fri Apr 02, 2010 8:41 pm

johnfariss wrote:Ed, you are right in that according to the article you cited, statutory rape was not mentioned. According to it, the minister plead guilt to "felony child solicitation" and "sexual misconduct charges." As a former law enforcement officer, I tend to read articles like this between the lines. Note (1) he "plead" guilty, not he was "found" guilty. That suggests that he did not go to trial, but rather entered a plea bargain arrangement; (2) note that plea bargains are exactly that: the result of a "bargaining session," and in those, a district attorney (or states attorney, circuit solicitor, whatever the title in in the particular state) begins with the harshest charge that the evidence supports, while the defense attorney looks to lessor included offences, and the two bargain, trying to balance justice, the uncertainty of a trial, sometimes the emotional state, cooperation, and reliability of witnesses and victims, and frankly of costs--dollars and cents--in order to serve "justice" in some manner. I may be guilty of assuming the worst, but it is an informed opinion based on my own experiences; if I were a betting man (and I wasn't, even before I became a Christian), I would bet there was rape/statutory rape involved, especially as the article states, "The teen told investigators that between January and March 2009, she and Moore kissed or engaged in sex acts at least seven times."

You also said, "No where did I or any one else any thing about 'this girl' being 'out of control (sexually)'." In my comment about a class to help parents regain control of their teens I think the context will show that I had moved from the specifics of this case to possible ways to address the broader issue in a positive manner. My secondary point is and has been that by absolving all victims every where and at all times of all responsibility we compound the problem." OK, if that is what you meant. It is, however, not the way I took it based on your wording and the juxaposition of your statement, "I would also suggest some classes to help parents of teens learn to retake control of said teens" with the content of your 10:05 PM entry on 04/01. Others seemed to take it the same way too. But we all sometimes mis-speak, I ccertainly do. And in the print medium, there is not the availability to immediately clarify a statement as there is in face-to-face conversations.

John


Ed; And John If I where a betting man and I am not. I could be interested in your wager. How ever with neither of us being gamblers that tact seems to be moot. But I would refer you to; http://www.in.gov/legislative/ic/code/t ... 2/ch4.html
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Re: What's wrong with this handling of a clergy abuse case?

Postby Ed Pettibone » Fri Apr 02, 2010 9:08 pm

johnfariss wrote:Ed, you are right in that according to the article you cited, statutory rape was not mentioned. According to it, the minister plead guilt to "felony child solicitation" and "sexual misconduct charges." As a former law enforcement officer, I tend to read articles like this between the lines. Note (1) he "plead" guilty, not he was "found" guilty. That suggests that he did not go to trial, but rather entered a plea bargain arrangement; (2) note that plea bargains are exactly that: the result of a "bargaining session," and in those, a district attorney (or states attorney, circuit solicitor, whatever the title in in the particular state) begins with the harshest charge that the evidence supports, while the defense attorney looks to lessor included offences, and the two bargain, trying to balance justice, the uncertainty of a trial, sometimes the emotional state, cooperation, and reliability of witnesses and victims, and frankly of costs--dollars and cents--in order to serve "justice" in some manner. I may be guilty of assuming the worst, but it is an informed opinion based on my own experiences; if I were a betting man (and I wasn't, even before I became a Christian), I would bet there was rape/statutory rape involved, especially as the article states, "The teen told investigators that between January and March 2009, she and Moore kissed or engaged in sex acts at least seven times."

You also said, "No where did I or any one else any thing about 'this girl' being 'out of control (sexually)'." In my comment about a class to help parents regain control of their teens I think the context will show that I had moved from the specifics of this case to possible ways to address the broader issue in a positive manner. My secondary point is and has been that by absolving all victims every where and at all times of all responsibility we compound the problem." OK, if that is what you meant. It is, however, not the way I took it based on your wording and the juxaposition of your statement, "I would also suggest some classes to help parents of teens learn to retake control of said teens" with the content of your 10:05 PM entry on 04/01. Others seemed to take it the same way too. But we all sometimes mis-speak, I ccertainly do. And in the print medium, there is not the availability to immediately clarify a statement as there is in face-to-face conversations.

John


Ed; And John If I where a betting man and I am not. I could be interested in your wager. How ever with neither of us being gamblers that tact seems to be moot. But I would refer you to; http://www.in.gov/legislative/ic/code/t ... 2/ch4.html

Note! Rape, by statute in Indiana must include intercourse. Do you have any evidence of there having been intercourse involved? I have seen no such statement form any authoritative source. You may assume the comment about sexual acts includes intercourse, but such an assumption can is not acceptable in legal proceedings. As the Clinton - Lewinsky case adequately demonstrated sexual acts may or may not include intercourse.

Whatever we are agreed that the former pastor in this case acted inappropriately. The leadership of the church he has attended in recent history has elected to be redemptively supportive. Who here has any authority to be critical of their decision based solely on assumptions?
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Re: What's wrong with this handling of a clergy abuse case?

Postby Ed Pettibone » Fri Apr 02, 2010 10:02 pm

Ed: Christa brown writes in her Blog
Christa Brown wrote: "Update 4/2/10: Check out Ed Pettibone's victim-blaming, "two to tango" comments about this case on the BaptistLife forum. Tragically, we have seen similar comments from Ed Pettibone over the course of several years, and his ignorant mind-set is far from unusual in Baptist life.


I do hope many folk who read Christa's blog will Come to these boards and read my comments in context. I will not honor what I see as the sensationalism that Christa uses in her blog by engaging her on her own ground, where she had the capability of controlling the content. I have long agreed that Clergy sexual abuse is is serious problem. However it has also long been my opinion that Christa's methodology runs counter to her stated purpose. Apparently the individual who made me aware of her 4/2/10 "update" cut and pasted above, shares this opinion.

She seems to object to the former pastor of a church in Indiana having attended another church there anonymously while awaiting trial and sentencing in a child molestation case, but I note a significant number of folk posting on her blog as anonymous. :roll:
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Re: What's wrong with this handling of a clergy abuse case?

Postby William Thornton » Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:21 am

Ed Pettibone wrote:Ed: Christa brown writes in her Blog
Christa Brown wrote: "Update 4/2/10: Check out Ed Pettibone's victim-blaming, "two to tango" comments about this case on the BaptistLife forum. Tragically, we have seen similar comments from Ed Pettibone over the course of several years, and his ignorant mind-set is far from unusual in Baptist life.


I do hope many folk who read Christa's blog will Come to these boards and read my comments in context. I will not honor what I see as the sensationalism that Christa uses in her blog by engaging her on her own ground, where she had the capability of controlling the content.


You offered an easy target Ed. It's your own fault. In a discussion about a case where a 49 year old pastor abused a 15 year old girl in his church, you foolishly said this:

Ed Pettibone wrote: I would also suggest some classes to help parents of teens learn to retake control of said teens.


The clear implication is that you see the 15 year-old girl as part of the problem. I can only hope that you don't think that the girl is part victim, part perpetrator but I fear that you do. The idea that out of "control" teens somehow invite 49 year old authority figures to abuse them is abhorrent.

You certainly have control of your own posts here. You could have edited out that line if you don't believe it has relevance here. If you believe that it does then I may agree with Christa that you have an "ignorant mind-set."
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Re: What's wrong with this handling of a clergy abuse case?

Postby Ed Pettibone » Sat Apr 03, 2010 1:11 pm

Ed: I do hope many folk who read Christa's blog will Come to these boards and read my comments in context. I will not honor what I see as the sensationalism that Christa uses in her blog by engaging her on her own ground, where she had the capability of controlling the content.

Wm: You offered an easy target Ed. It's your own fault. In a discussion about a case where a 49 year old pastor abused a 15 year old girl in his church, you foolishly said this:

Ed Pettibone wrote:" I would also suggest some classes to help parents of teens learn to retake control of said teens."


The clear implication is that you see the 15 year-old girl as part of the problem. I can only hope that you don't think that the girl is part victim, part perpetrator but I fear that you do. The idea that out of "control" teens somehow invite 49 year old authority figures to abuse them is abhorrent.

You certainly have control of your own posts here. You could have edited out that line if you don't believe it has relevance here. If you believe that it does then I may agree with Christa that you have an "ignorant mind-set.


Ed: I offered an easy target for what? And what is my fault. That Christa takes offence to One line from one of my post in an ongoing thread? And William exactly what is the ignorant about my mind set?

William You may imply what ever but I stand by that line as one part of how I am persuaded that Churches may to do more to address the issue of Clergy sexual abuse. Note I said nothing about any particular girl, and I wrote of parents in rather generic terms. Would you suggest that in general there is not a problem with the sexual attitudes of a majority of today's teens, both in and out of church?. If indeed there is such a problem who better to be trained to attack it than the parents of said teens?

I am pretty sure that Christa will continue her crusade and i know that I will continue to see further down the road toward redemption of those involved in such cases. And I salute Calvary Baptist in Greenwood, IN for at least working in that direction.
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Re: What's wrong with this handling of a clergy abuse case?

Postby Hal Eaton » Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:31 pm

It's too bad that the expression of opinions on both sides of this issue end up with reprimands, accusations, and name-calling on both sides.

Fact #1: There are middle-aged (and younger) (and older) men who might attempt to overcome their incapacities and inadequacies by seeking the admiration (and much else) from younger ladies (women)(girls).

Fact #2: There is an ample supply of teen-age girls whose up-bringing has neglected to give them a sense of well-being concerning themselves and their relationships. They are often referred to as boy-crazy; but many will offer themselves to older "targets" in their search for self-fulfillment.

Fact #3: There are middle-aged (and younger) (and older) women who will seek assurance of their femininity and attractiveness by seeking younger men (boys) for their own satisfactions. (Check out the plethora of "Cougar" news reports and TV plots . . .)

Fact #4: The "Cougars" don't have to look too far to find willing accomplices for their gratification.
Teen-age boys finding themselves hunted (and found) by older ladies seldom cry "Rape." In fact, they seldom cry at all.

So please don't acccuse me for being on any one side of this dispute. Rather than blaming any group referred to above, I can see the psychological pressures that result in conjoint ventures; I really feel little need to assess moral shortcomings to any participants. Many are more victims than perps. The negative results may well be greater for some than for others. Most generalities are false -- including this one.

I can't wait to hear someone say, "What if it is your daughter? granddaughter? sister? mother? wife?"
Or, from the distaff side, "What if it is your son? grandson? brother? father? husband?"
It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry. -- Thomas Paine
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Re: What's wrong with this handling of a clergy abuse case?

Postby William Thornton » Sun Apr 04, 2010 6:57 am

Ed and Hal are both ignorant here. The facts of the case don't lend themselves to your conclusion. Both of you foolishly blame the victim.

Ed is just more pointed in doing so: "I stand by that line as one part of how I am persuaded that Churches may to do more to address the issue of Clergy sexual abuse"

That "one part" of what churches could do to address the issue of clergy child sex abuse could be described like this: Teach girls not to try and seduce their middle aged ministers.

Ignorant.

Both of you might read Christa's book about her case.

Ignorant.

Timothy, I don't think the letter of the man's present church is an example of protecting the perp. Why do you think it is?
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