Computer shopping -- 1st day

[Chris]

As I have mentioned a couple of times, I need a new desk top. My Dell 4400 , bought in 2002, doesn't have a DVD drive which means I cant install my favorite software update.

I have vacation time for the next several days. My trip to Oklahoma for class reunion has been canceled due to the cost of gasoline. Instead I will take 4 days to shop for a new desktop.

Having been told MORE THAN ONCE by Dr. McCoy that I should buy a Mac, I drove today to the nearest Apple store (in Norfolk)(55 mile round trip). When I arrived, the "concierge" had me "sign in" on a Mac computer.

1. I made a mistake spelling my name, so I looked for the "backspace key". The pretty little white Mac keyboard doesn't have one. I was told to use "delete" (which to me, means delete info to the RIGHT of the cursor). Confusing. I asked if this is the optional keyboard, and was told it is the ONLY keyboard. Having learned to type 55 wpm on an IBM selectric (very similar to my Dell keyboard), I can not adjust to anything else. STRIKE ONE.

2. I told the salesman that the main reason I am shopping now is that I invested $42 for the 2008 version of my favorite piece of software -- Microsoft Streets & Trips. Thinking I was buying a CD, I got a DVD and my computer doesn't have DVD drive, so the software sits on the couch unused, until I get a new machine. The salesman told me that this particular piece of software is designed to run only with Microsoft windows and cannot be installed on a Mac, without an expensive "add-on" STRIKE TWO

3. Since I use Microsoft Word A LOT, I started asking questions about the word processor that comes with the Mac. Actually a word processor doesn't "come with" the Mac. One has to pay an extra $79 for it. That's $79 above the $1199 price of the basic unit. STEE RIKE THREE -- You're out, Mac! Sorry Wade. I went with an open mind, but my needs are apparently different from the typical Mac buyer!


I head back thru the tunnel to Newport News and went to my neighborhood CompUSA store. Parked my car and went to the door to find chains on it. The store appears to have gone out of business. Best Buy is just a few yards away, but an urge to use toilet sent me straight home. That happens when you get old! I'll hit Best Buy tomorrow bright and early. (well, after I read the paper, that is).

[Neil Heath]

Two comments:

1) You can add a DVD drive to a computer for a lot less than a new machine if your box has room for it.

2) I've seen some great deals recently on computers...esp. if you don't need a new monitor. Office Depot had one last week for $349 after $50 rebate, for example. Most I found were about $499 for one I would be willing to have. Don't go with the bottom of the line unit. And be sure you have enough RAM for Vista (2GB).

OK 3 comments...
3) you buy MS Office for the Mac just like you do for a PC. I wouldn't have it anyway, but it's available.

Neil

[Cathy]

Chris, the mac mini is just $599 and you can plug in your old keyboard, mouse, and display. Although the word processor is not included it is just $77 and includes an other office software components such as an excel type program. It is a good deal. If you buy the family pack it is only $20 more and can be loaded onto 5 computers. I think it is a hard to beat deal. The Excel like program is quite compatible with Office Excel. I have it set to open excel files and it does it every time at work.

[Chris]

Two comments:

1) You can add a DVD drive to a computer for a lot less than a new machine if your box has room for it.

The geek at Best Buy told me two months ago, I can put a DVD oin my present machine for $80. But had to agree that I don't want to invest $80 in a 6 yer old machine that is slow as molasses.

2) I've seen some great deals recently on computers...esp. if you don't need a new monitor. Don't go with the bottom of the line unit. And be sure you have enough RAM for Vista (2GB).

Funny you should mention monitor. I am still using the Sampo 19" (maybe 17) monitor that came with my 1997 Acer computer. It takes up a lot of desk space, but I've gotten so used to it, I wouldn't know what to do with that space if I had it. The monitor that came with my Dell 4400 in 2002 is a 15" or 17" (i.e. 2 in small than the one I'm using) and is still in the top of our coat closet -- never been used. After being used to the bigger screen I doubt I could be happy with that small screen and will probably never use it. I've learned, in many areas of shopping, NEVER buy the bottom-of-the-line. Especially cars!

OK 3 comments...
3) you buy MS Office for the Mac just like you do for a PC. I wouldn't have it anyway, but it's available.

Neil

I don't need Office. All I want is a word-processor, e.g. Word. I don't know or use Power Point, Excel, Access, Money, etc.

The Mac salesman wanted to charge me $79 for a add-on word processor. And when he tried to demonstrate it for me, I asked him to show me how it "highlights" a word or phrase. (i.e. like a yellow highlighter) He finally concluded that it doesn't have that feature. MS Word allows me to highlight in several colors in addition to yellow.


So what's the BIG DEAL with McIntosh? Why did I waste time taking a test ride?

[Timothy Bonney]

Chris,

I found that it took me less than two weeks of use to fully get used to a Mac keyboard. You very quickly get used to backspacing with the delete key and I had to think about what on earth you were talking about when you mentioned a "backspace key" Gee what on earth is that for?

New computers of any stripe come without a decent word processor. You'll end up buying word no matter what computer you buy.

If the criteria is that a piece of software called "Microsoft..." needs to run on your computer then you want a windows box. But, if any good mapping software is fine for you you can find such program for Mac with no problem.

Also, on the up side Macs don't have virus problems or spyware problems they very seldom crash or freeze up. You very seldom ever have to reboot or restart. So, if you want reliability you want a Mac. If you want to use the same keyboard you've used since the typewriter you may be stuck.

[Michael]

Two comments:

1) You can add a DVD drive to a computer for a lot less than a new machine if your box has room for it.

2) I've seen some great deals recently on computers...esp. if you don't need a new monitor. Office Depot had one last week for $349 after $50 rebate, for example. Most I found were about $499 for one I would be willing to have. Don't go with the bottom of the line unit. And be sure you have enough RAM for Vista (2GB).

OK 3 comments...
3) you buy MS Office for the Mac just like you do for a PC. I wouldn't have it anyway, but it's available.

Neil

Hey Neil,

First time I've seen your avatar. Thought you'd want to know that someone drew a beard on your photo. Oh, those tricky graphics programs.

Now back to "Baptist Computer Shopper."

[Jonathan]

Chris,

It sounds like you're interested in just getting a PC that is updated enough, at a low enough cost, to run the software that you've already learned. Good for you. I agree with the folks who suggest that you can get a very good PC in the $600 to $1000 range to meet your needs (and the needs you'll have for at least the next 5-6 years).

Concerning software, if you are related to someone who teaches in a public school system, they are allowed to purchase Office software (once per year) at very low price (last I checked, my sister could buy MS Office Premium for less than $70...shipped). My guess is that just Word would be $10 to $15 less.

[Chris]

Thanks, Jonathon. I think this is the route I will take. I've not had very many problems with crashes or viruses.
The only time my computer crashed was when I tried to install the CD for ServicePak 2.

$900 is my limit since that's all that's left of my tax refund. I have a two-month old printer, so I don't need that. I have a 11 year old monitor that works perfectly (yes, but for how long?), so I could do without that.

Thanks to everyone for the advice.

[Timothy Bonney]

Thanks, Jonathon. I think this is the route I will take. I've not had very many problems with crashes or viruses.
The only time my computer crashed was when I tried to install the CD for ServicePak 2.

$900 is my limit since that's all that's left of my tax refund. I have a two-month old printer, so I don't need that. I have a 11 year old monitor that works perfectly (yes, but for how long?), so I could do without that.

Thanks to everyone for the advice.

Personal opinion, I go closer to the $900 end then the $600. A $600 machine often will not have as much memory or HD space as you want and you'll latter end up shelling out more money for those items. So, unless you want to spend the $600 knowing you'll need to spend another $200 or $300 down the road to spread out your cost, I'd watch about getting the cheapest system you can buy. I personally try to shoot middle of the road in price and features when I buy a new computer.

[rickwright01]

You know I just had to chime in on such a thread.

1) I trust Chris knows I am not a Mac fanatic but... one could install Openoffice.org which is about 98% compatible/similar-to Microsoft Word. And there is a Mac build for it.

2) cathy points out nicely there are expensive Macs and there are less expensive Macs. Which leads to...

3) I agree with Timothy Bonney on price. I like to aim for the "sweet spot" which usually means something in the middle price range. "Sweet spot" means most bang for the buck - often the lowest example of the next higher level of quality. (I buy the slowest dual core model that is also has the next higher bus speed.) But here is the thing - what is Chris using this for? You can always upgrade the hard drive later (point still taken) and the video card (unless you are playing Age of Conan MMORPG or Uber Halo VI the integrated graphics will do the job) and even the memory (although friends don't let friend buy computers with less than 1Gb - there is a bare minimum - although 2Gb is always a good idea)* and even the optical drive (although it is unclear Chris is comfortable doing these upgrades himself without paying someone like BestBuy which leads to...)

4) I despise BestBuy. I hate them with visceral hatred. (Gosh Rick that is not a very Christian thing to say is it?) They prey upon the ignorance of the average computer non-expert with their GeekSquad that charges $150 for something I could do in 5 minutes and a semi-conscious orangutang. (Not to diss people who work for BestBuy. In fact I pity them.) I admit I occasionally buy things from BestBuy because I am a fool and a wimp... and CompUSA is gone here too. But I recognize the utility of buying where you can talk to a person in front of you and actually handle the computer in question.

5) Which is why I strongly fanatically recommend a direct purchase such as DELL. But see #3. DELL has great deals on "base systems". But they are evil when it comes to add-ons and upgrades. ($100 for another stick of memory?!? Wth?!? My mom could do it for $50!)

6) Alas Poor Chris! Besieged with so many different and conflicting opinions! Remember - I am not a Mac fanatic... by no means... but if you want to go that way... I will still respect you in the morning.

7) Especially since the drive toward Microsoft Vista suddenly magically makes Macs... palatable. (When Windows 98 was the norm - I came mighty close to buying a Mac. And if Windows XP had not come next... I would have.)

It sounds like all of the above is unnecessary because you already have a wise and well considered game plan.

*Often just adding memory will make a computer seem new. I run Win XP Pro very comfortably on old machines (like 5-9 years old) as long as they have 512Mb or more. I have seen computers struggle... add an extra gig of memory... and the performance problems vanish.

[Timothy Bonney]

Rick has given some very sound advise. And a lot of what you should buy does depend on what you are wanting.

I'm a die hard Mac user having switched almost 5 years ago I'd never look back. But, if your goal is to continue to run all of your current Windows software rather than change the kind of computing you do then you should go with a windows machine and, if at all possible, get Windows XP or XP Pro rather than Vista.

I agree with the sweet spot metaphor. It is why I run a Macbook rather than a Macbook Pro. Yes, on the high end you get more processor power etc. but, most people don't need that.

Also, I didn't see if you wanted a desktop or laptop. That makes a huge difference as well.

[Jerry_B]

What it sounds like you need is a cheap box with a large hard drive and a DVD drive. Ability to get on the internet and you want to type a few letters here and there. What you need my friend is Ubuntu! I has all the items you request, runs like a champ, looks great and comes with OpenOffice Suite. The best part...it's free! 100% free! In fact I am using it right now have been for several years I love it! You will save yourself big money and be able to get a greater, faster, neato computer.

Note: I also have a Mac Book which is also great and would recommend you get one but you seem to want to save a few bucks and that type of great comes with a price tag, which by the way is not anymore then a windows machine by the time you buy all the stuff that doesn't come with windows. I just purchased a Eee PC which runs a version of Xandros and has been fantastic, love not having to carry around a "heavy' laptop. For the record I am not a computer geek, that's my wife, I usually get my the hand-me-downs from her, although trying Ubuntu was my idea initially.

[Haruo]

You very quickly get used to backspacing with the delete key and I had to think about what on earth you were talking about when you mentioned a "backspace key" Gee what on earth is that for?

I occasionally use a Mac and have learned when doing so to "delete" when I want to "backspace". But a question: what if I want to "delete" (in the IBM sense)? Does the Mac simply not support that function, or is it called something and located somewhere else? (E.g. I could imagine "hold down the apple and then delete"...)

Another question: If Chris gets the Mac mini Cathy touted and hooks up his current keyboard to it, will "Del" function the same as it used to, or will it duplicate "Bkspc" or will it simply be a dead key?

Another question: Does OpenOffice software run on Macs? I find OO Writer less different from MS Word than there is difference between different versions of Word itself. If it works on Macs I would suggest it as a free alternative to either MS Word aka Office or the Mac Store add-on.

Haruo

[Haruo]

Oh, I see Rick answered the OpenOffice question, and in the affirmative. Good to know.

Haruo

[Timothy Bonney]

There is no delete function in which the cursor moves forward as you delete. You need to put the cursor (using arrow keys or mouse) at the end of the word your want to delete and then hit the delete key backing over the word.

Tim

[Jonathan]

I feel Chris' pain on this one. I recently purchases a new PC to replace my last new PC (purchased in Feb. 1999). I had upgraded the software, the optical drive, the harddrive, memory, power supply (mostly from scavenged machines), and was looking buying a newer motherboard, graphics, and sound card when it became obvious that just purchasing a new machine would be more cost effective. I really, really wanted to start from scratch and build a frankenputer but DELL had a better deal. Plus, I want to pass my new machine down to my kids in about 6 months (with plans to purchase a similar level machine so they can both have one).

Rick is right (is he ever not?) that they get you in the upgrades. With the death of CompUSA (liked the inventory, hated the service - got cheated twice, shame on me the 2nd time), Newegg and similar websites will have to do but I really like talking to geeks..err..experts in a store to get a second opinion to my own.

For my gaming addiction, perhaps I'll just use hotel points to just buy an xbox 360 or PSIII (I want to play Call of Duty 3).

[Chris]

... or HD space a

What is that?

[Chris]

All of you have been very helpful. I am going to print this entire thread, and highlight all the important stuff and take it with me to whatever store.

One thing you (pl.) aren't picking up on --- I don't ever use my computer for playing games, nor do I ever expect to. So maybe I don't need some of the "cards".

I love to listen to baseball and football games that aren't telecast or broadcast in my market, and will likely upgrade to MLB's TV service (although, unlike their radio service, many games are blacked out on MLB-TV to protect contracts with regional teams.)(example: if the Orioles game is on one of my local cable channels, I may be prevented from using MLB-TV to watch the Seattle Mariners, because MLB wants me to be loyal to the Orioles, our regional "team.". They DON't black out any radio broadcasts, which is why I enjoy that so much.)

So I want an audio and video capability that will allow me to watch live sports but not play complicated games.


BTW, I use the "delete to the right" key a LOT while replying to BaptistLife posts.

[Timothy Bonney]

... or HD space a

What is that?

HD = Hard Drive. The bigger the better. They are pretty cheap right now.

[Neil Heath]

My earlier post was based on a survey I did less than 2 weeks ago for someone needing to replace a sick machine locally. When I said you could get a machine for $399, I wasn't referring to a bottom of the line unit. I wouldn't buy low end either. This would do what he needs easily.

[Geek speak on]: It was an Acer box with a dual-core chip running at 2.2 Ghz, 2 GB of RAM, a 320 GB HD, lots of ports (I think there were 8 USB), and a gigabit ethernet card, running Vista Home Premium. Monitor extra. [Geek speak off]

The week before it had a $50 rebate on it, meaning I could have bought it for $349. I found several others similarly equipped for under $500. No need to look for a machine costing more in his case. I also use the free OpenOffice and have no need of MS Office any more.

I agree on Best Buy. Seldom has the best prices. And Circuit City has gotten rid of their experienced staff in favor of cheaper young kids. Last time I was in there I answered his questions and he gave me wrong information. There's also some real value in buying locally from a place that is knowledgeable and can service what they sell at a reasonable rate.

Neil

[jerryl]

I might disagree a bit with the appropriate price point. I would agree with going with Dell.

I priced out this machine:

Dell Inspiron 530s:
Intel® Pentium® dual-core processor E2180 (1MB, 2.00GHz, 800FSB)
Genuine Windows® XP Home Edition
No Monitor
2GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz- 2DIMMs
250GB Serial ATA Hard Drive (7200RPM) w/DataBurst Cache™
16X DVD+/-RW Drive
Integrated Intel Graphics Media Accelerator 3100
Integrated 7.1 Channel Audio
Dell USB Multimedia Keyboard and Dell Optical USB Mouse
No Floppy Drive Included
No Modem Option
My Software & Accessories
No speakers (Speakers are required to hear audio from your system)
McAfee SecurityCenter with anti-virus, anti-spyware, firewall, 30-Days
Microsoft Works 9.0
My Service
1Yr In-Home Service, Parts + Labor, 24x7 Phone Support
Included 3 GB DataSafe Online Backup for 1Yr
Also Includes
Mouse included with Keyboard purchase
Adobe® Acrobat® Reader 8.1
Integrated 10/100 Ethernet
Windows XP™
No Entertainment software pre-installed

Price $414

Not exactly the complete bottom of the line, but the next processor up. I have added RAM memory up to 2gig, and added the Dell Multimedia USB keyboard...(the best keyboard layout available on the market right now, I have one at work and bought one for a non-Dell PC at home.)

IMHO, much more processor is complete overkill for someone browsing the web (even playing multimedia apps on the web), doing word processing, and running some other non-game apps. Anything faster is for photo/movie/audio editing, or gaming.

And I totally agree about OpenOffice. In fact IMHO, Office 2007 is the Vista of office apps. OpenOffice Writer will feel more like the Microsoft Word most people are used to than Word 2007. My partner uses OpenOffice for a few college classes he is taking. I just set OpenOffice to save documents in Microsoft formats as the default, nobody knows he's not using Word.

jerryl

[Chris]

I took the Plunge. Did something very similar to what "jerryl" suggested -- bought it on line directly from Dell. I got the bells and whistles I wanted (including, belive it or not, a floppy drive) and eliminated what didn't need.

Dell Inspiron 530s; Conroe dual core processor E2200, 1MB 2.2 GHz; Windows XP Home (I passed on VISTA per the consensus of opinion here.) I could add it later if I must.
Memory: 2GB dual channel DDR2 SDRAM 667MHz
Dell keyboard (which is what I type fastest on) and optical mouse
19 inch widescreen flat monitor with TrueLife (whatever that is)
Video: Intel graphics media accelerator 3100

Hard drive: 250GB (7200RPM) w/databurst cache (not sure what that does, but it was free)
3.5 in. floppy drive.....YES! ! !
No modem (my cable and ISP sold me that a couple of years ago)
Adobe reader 8.1 (could have gotten this free off internet)
No speakers (the ones I have work fine)
Optical drive 16X DVD+/-RW Drive OOPS, does this mean I'm not getting a CD drive? I assumed that CD drive was standard.

Integrated 7.1 channel audio
Microsoft Works 9.0 pre-installed
McAfee Security Center, free for 30 days. I will let that expire, since I prefer AVAST.

Warranty : 1 yr in-home service, part & labor, 24-7 phone support (did NOT opt for a expensive extension)
No entertainment software pre-installed
3 GB DataSafe online backup for one year

Shipping was FREE if I chose the slowest option (I did).
Promotional discount = $50


Grand total == $660.44 delivered!

I hope there are no surprises.


Thanks again for all the good advice.

[rickwright01]

I took the Plunge. Did something very similar to what "jerryl" suggested -- bought it on line directly from Dell. I got the bells and whistles I wanted (including, belive it or not, a floppy drive) and eliminated what didn't need.

Dell Inspiron 530s; Conroe dual core processor E2200, 1MB 2.2 GHz; Windows XP Home (I passed on VISTA per the consensus of opinion here.) I could add it later if I must.
Memory: 2GB dual channel DDR2 SDRAM 667MHz
Dell keyboard (which is what I type fastest on) and optical mouse
19 inch widescreen flat monitor with TrueLife (whatever that is)
Video: Intel graphics media accelerator 3100

Hard drive: 250GB (7200RPM) w/databurst cache (not sure what that does, but it was free)
3.5 in. floppy drive.....YES! ! !
No modem (my cable and ISP sold me that a couple of years ago)
Adobe reader 8.1 (could have gotten this free off internet)
No speakers (the ones I have work fine)
Optical drive 16X DVD+/-RW Drive OOPS, does this mean I'm not getting a CD drive? I assumed that CD drive was standard.

Let me assure you that a DVD writer/reader can handle CDs just fine. I prefer Windows XP Pro but (a) that is personal preference and (b) your needs are different. Should work great. I happen to install floppy drives myself - "just in case" (typically when messing with Linux and alternate boot configs). I think by "modem" they meant an good old dial-up modem not the cable modem your ISP provides. No biggie - if you have cable you do not need a dial-up modem.

McAfee Security Center, free for 30 days. I will let that expire, since I prefer AVAST.

Good move. McAfee s^cks. In fact I delete it and not just let it expire. Although - and I truly despise this part - I have to "activate it" in order to uninstall it. I am not making that up.

Warranty : 1 yr in-home service, part & labor, 24-7 phone support (did NOT opt for a expensive extension)

Tough call. For a laptop? I would flog you for not going with 3+ years. For a desktop? Nowhere near as big a deal. Desktop repairs are generally much cheaper. You should be okay.

Wow. I am impressed. Took some guts but I think you did an awesome job. jerryl deserves kudos also for pointing you in a good direction. And a great price for everything you got!

[Chris]

Good move. McAfee s^cks. In fact I delete it and not just let it expire. Although - and I truly despise this part - I have to "activate it" in order to uninstall it. I am not making that up.

I'm glad you alerted me to this!

I saved my "user log in" and "password" from when I had McAfee two years ago. I wonder if it is still good. Or will I get a window saying "That user log in has already been used, pick something else.

[Chris]

Although I chose the "slowest" of the three shipping options, the computer arrived on the fifth day (third business day) after I placed the order!

The only disappointment is that the Microsoft Works Word Processor doesn't have as many features as Microsoft Word had on my previous computer. I am considering downloading Open Office to see if it has a better word processor.

Also, after I downloaded Mozilla Thunderbird (my email program of choice), I find that when I "reply" to an email, the cursor goes to the bottom of the email rather than the top. There must be an adjustment for this, but I can't find it.

Thanks for all the good advice. I think I made a good choice for less than $700.