Is Truett Cathy a "counterfeit" Baptist

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Is Truett Cathy a "counterfeit" Baptist

Postby fox » Mon Sep 18, 2006 3:29 pm

First, William, this could be the first chapter of that dissertation you have been waiting to see. :lol:
And I do post this with some fear and trembling but I think it passed time to ask the question, in the context of Chic Fil A's corporate attorney named in the Cecil STaton photo op in the http://www.ethicsdaily.com/article_detail.cfm?AID=7879 story.
Truett's Son in law is a former vicepresident of SBC IMB, now in BRazil as I understand.
Truett CAthy, whose namesake is George W Truett, I think is long overdue for a thorough exploration of exactly what kind of Baptist is he. How does he stack up by the plumbline Balmer has outlined in his chapter Where Have all the Baptist's Gone, and the several references to Ralph Reed and the Christian Coalition in Kimball's When Religion Becomes Evil.
Though Truett's son Dan is a trustee of Berry College, whose alums include Johnny Pierce, Editor of Baptists Today, the Chic Fil A empire has fingerprints all over Nelson Price's takeover of Shorter College; and the discussion of how Truett and the CFA ideology freighted with the world view of Francis Schaefer engages the recent emphasis of CBF on social justice issues.
Or to put it another way, if John Baugh millions are carrying what I consider a more honest legacy of George Truett at Baylor Div School, then what is Truett CAthy's legacy when compared not only to Baugh and the Sysco Millions, but to Georgia own Mercer University and the construct of authentic Baptist witness new president Underwood has outlined in Cecil STaton's backyard.
I hope to get the Underwood link from http://www.faithinpubliclife.org up for you soon.
In meantime, there is a chasm between the two, Baugh and Truett CAthy; the Baylor version and the Chic Fil A ideology if all the apparent idnicators are true.
Couple of disclaimers. I sat beside DAn CAthy, ironically enough, in Bob Crapps intro to religion the fall of 71 at Furman. My first cousin by marriage heads the CFA Scholarship program at Berry College, Bob Skelton.
He is a good man, a fine preacher. Dad's sister's daughter, Vicki, Bob's wife has been organist at Nelson Price's Ros Street in Marietta, and they have raised four outstanding children. My affection and respect for them runs deep and I hope they know that in their gut wherever this discussion leads.
But it does not take a rocket scientist to imagine CFA administration, could have enormous influence in squaring the circle on immigration reform. So far I have serious reservations with the people and kinds of politics they are playing in Georgia in particular. I have no indication they have versed themselves in Bob Moser's White Heat revelations in http://www.thenation.com nor the Eric Olsen report in the March http://www.sojo.net
Sources say Truett has roots in the Birch Society. I think he may have that some time ago, but there is evidence it still has some hold on him.
Dan is on the board of Lead LIke Jesus, to their credit, a display group at the recent CBF in Atlanta. I don't study the WinShape Program at Berry, but I have every reason to believe it has never crossed their mine to wield out counseling applicants based on their view of CBF, though like my cousins it does appear for the most part CFA folks are active in hard core SBC churches.
The Cathy's it is my impression would come down on the side of George Will's reservations about Tom Edsall's latest book from a syndicated column of Will over the weekend, where it appears CBF leadership would beg to differ and read the tea leaves of America's current political faultlines as it intersects justice work in a different way.
Here is Will's concern with Edsall. Hope to link that column soon as well and we will see what the end will be
Will quoting Edsall from Edsall latest book "Building Red America; The New Conservative Coalition and the Drive for Permanent Power."..."To social conservatives [recent developments] have signaled an irretrievable and tragic loss. Their reaction has fueled, on the right, a powerful traditionalist movement and a groundswell of support for the GOP. To modernists, these developments constitute, at worst the unfortunate costs of progress, and at best, they constitute a triumph over unconscionable obstacles to the liberation and self realization of much of the human race."
To that Will says in that paragraph, if you read again, is the real reason for the rise of the Red States.
For Truett Cathy, I could understand how his longing for in his mind a relatively bucolic Hapeville Georgia from his coming of age days in the 40's and 50's in the Southwest quadrant of ATlanta, could turn him toward the politics of Francis Schaefer and Richard Land. Even Nancy Ammerman appears to give him as much in her legitimization of the conservative bent of the politics of Creflo Dollar just east of Cathy;s stomping grounds.
But I think George Truett were he with us today, is more in the line of the Baptist church state politics of the legacy of LD Johnson and Marney and STewart Newman, and that true vine is groped for in the baptist witness of Baugh, the CBF and The Alliance of Baptists.
Let this conversation continue in earnest with Cecil Staton, Gov Perdue and others; and let's have an honest look especially at how this all plays in re immigration reform. Chic Fil A has a lot at stake in chicken politics in this election cycle.
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correction

Postby fox » Mon Sep 18, 2006 3:31 pm

The ed story on Cecil Staton and CFA's corporate Attorney is
http://www.ethicsdaily.com/article_detail.cfm?AID=7896
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And here

Postby fox » Mon Sep 18, 2006 3:38 pm

is a link to a movement in Baptist life in America Truett Cathy and CFA shows no indication they will underwrite endorse, let alone engage.
For me, a person who got saved at Truett Memorial in Hayesville, North Carolina, here is the outline of a group of Baptists that are the true heirs of George Truett, something lacking in one of his namesakes, Truett Cathy if the politics of the Cecil Staton bent are an indicator.
http://www.faithinpubliclife.org/2006/0 ... strea.html
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and another correction

Postby fox » Mon Sep 18, 2006 3:40 pm

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Postby Big Daddy Weaver » Mon Sep 18, 2006 6:39 pm

I got a little bit lost in that converstaion.

Is Truett Cathy an "authentic Baptist"?? I do know that he seemed genuinely supportive of my decision to intern at the BJC a couple of years ago. Is he a racist as Fox seemed to imply (Birch comment)? No. Was he a typical Dixiecrat 50 years ago? Yea, most likely.

In addition to those tasty chicken biscuits, Truett has a strong passion raising troubled young men. He has adopted quite a few troubled boys as his own. Truett also supports many boys&girls "Youth Homes" throughout the country. He has a sincere commitment to Christ, period.

Does Truett Cathy have fundy friends? Yes. But, I do not believe Truett Cathy understands Baptist Life as it exists now. I do know that he is a "Purpose-Driven Life" kinda guy. My copy of the book came from him.
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Postby Cathy » Mon Sep 18, 2006 7:01 pm

Not to expose my age, but I believe that the John Birch Society was more anticommunist than racist. They were the holdovers from the McCarthy era.

Hootenanny had some great John Birch Society songs. One line I remember was "If your mommy is a commy then you got to turn her in".

Fortunately mine was not.
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Postby Big Daddy Weaver » Mon Sep 18, 2006 7:19 pm

That's true.

Since JBS opposed the Civil Rights Movement - I've just always seen it as a racist organization. I've heard someone call Truett a racist (not based on whether he was or was not involved with JBS) in the past as well. Not sure what Fox was implying now though.

Though from my past visits with Truett, I don't see him in the same light that Fox does...
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Postby Joshua Villines » Mon Sep 18, 2006 9:47 pm

I just wish he'd get his little fundamentalist training grounds the hell off my alma mater's campus (and rebuild the dairy he asked us to tear down).

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Postby Jonathan » Mon Sep 18, 2006 10:57 pm

Big Daddy Weaver wrote:That's true.

Since JBS opposed the Civil Rights Movement - I've just always seen it as a racist organization. I've heard someone call Truett a racist (not based on whether he was or was not involved with JBS) in the past as well. Not sure what Fox was implying now though.


JBS opposed communism...to such a degree that they also opposed any organization or movement seen as friendly or collaborative with communism. According to many at the time (not that I agree or disagree with this "many"), several leaders in the Civil Rights Movement fit the bill.

As for what Fox was implying...I doubt that even Fox knows.

The real question is: what did Cathy do to tick off the SFox?

BDW wrote:Though from my past visits with Truett, I don't see him in the same light that Fox does...


I know of several folks who have benefited greatly by working for Mr. Cathy...I'm fairly sure that TC's track record would stack up nicely compared to SF.
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Truett

Postby fox » Tue Sep 19, 2006 5:07 pm

First: I do not think Truett Cathy is a racist. He may--and this is pure speculation, I have no facts to go with--be concerned with the direction Atlanta has taken since civil rights days with decisions of black Mayors, but then again, Cynthia Tucker may share similar concerns with Truett.
I think Michelle Goldberg is on to something with her revelations the Pressler/Patterson driven takeover of the SBC had it roots in the Birch Society, that mentality, with many intersections and entanglements with Jesse Helms network. Both Ellen Rosenberg and Joe Ferguson were on to Helms and his Baptist Birch entanglements twenty years ago.
Cathy's freighted politics with Christian Coalition mind set folks in Georgia give me some concern, and my friend Big Daddy, and Jonathan need to read the ed.com story I linked.
I am not ticked off at Truett Cathy. I agree with all the fine things said about him so far in this discussion.
It is my understanding he was named after George Truett. And given my friend Randall Balmer has called Richard Land a counterfeit Baptist when you hold him up against the legacy of George, I am asking is there enough evidence to suspect Truett CAthy of being a counterfeit if you take his company's network as evidenced by the Cecil STaton photo opp as didactic.
It was news to me he supported BDAddy's internship withthe BJC. That tempers my remarks a few degrees; still he continues to have a free pass on what has happened in the SBC the last 25 years, has never been probed to my knowledge. I have no reason to doubt he supported the Nelson Price takeover of Shorter College.
Even saying that Joshua, I do not think he has a fundamentalist training camp at Berry. I part with you there, cause as I said you are talking about blood there, first cousins and their children and a niece. My Baptist politics may differ with the cousins, but I know one brother of a staffer there has served as a CBF missionary to China and another summer staffer is going there for a two year stint; I think she left about three weeks ago.
So while I may be on your side four out of five times when, say the discussion includes Jonathan or my friend John Killian, you crossed the line with me when you willy nilly say the Win Shape Center is a fundamentalist training camp.
Truett Cathy is well known supporter of Sonny Perdue. Looks like Perdue's base is being shored up in the fundamentalist right with the Cecil Staton photo opp. Several nuances to be resolved here. Just hoping this thread will open up the can of worms so we can all know Chic Fil A a little better come first tuesday in November.
Looks like almost all of the takers on this thread so far fail to recognize the significance of the George Will, Tom Edsall divide for contexting Truett Cathy. I hope to have a linkfor that up for you soon, or try a google, George Will on Tom Edsall.
More later.
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It gets better

Postby fox » Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:27 pm

I hope the administration of Chic Fil A, at the highest levels is aware of this discussion if for no other reason than this teachable moment I am about to provide them
They can read the george will review of Tom Edsall's latest book at http://www.townhall.com/columnists/georgewill the Sept 17 column on building Red America.
Then Edsall has a piece you can read in current http://www.tnr.com though it is available online to subscribers only which means you will have to go to a better library near you to read it.
For sure, Buddy Shurden and Gourley and Johnny Pierce should jump on the Edsall TNR piece tomorrow.
CFA has no excuses now. They cannot say, or they should not be able to say anylonger they don't know where their cooperative program dollars are going when their money goes to Richard land and his ERLC.
We haven't been in Kansas since 1979 and no more excuses for being naive about this stuff.
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Postby Joshua Villines » Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:08 pm

Fox,

I watched the videos of Bob Skelton's "sermons" back when he ran Winshape, and I saw the contracts they had to sign to live there. When I was at Berry, Winshape was a fundamentalist indoctrination center. Even if it isn't any more, there's no doubt in my mind that Bubba Cathy and his fundamentalist buddies on the board killed the gay student group at Berry (after the President approved it), and there's no question they tore down the Normandy Dairy to put a frickin' retreat center on our campus that's not meant to serve the students or alumni but rather the Chicken Employess.

Again I say, get that chicken the hell off our campus.

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Josh

Postby fox » Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:30 pm

Though I have differences with Bob Skelton on several fronts, I stand with him against you for the most part.
I cannot resolve the gay matter at Berry, but I can come down with Willimon's Christian Century article of a couple years ago when he deplored the Surfeit of Sexual politics, meaning he was tired of it.
The conflation of Sexual politics with civil rights in my view has driven a false dilemma in the culture wars. I think Edsall is shouting that in stark manner in his new book, one I challenge you like I have challenged CFA to engage immediately with the New Republic article as tease if you can stomach it.
There is a way to embrace the CBF's embrace of social justice planks, prophesy to Chic Fil A without throwing the baby out with the bath water.
but you and several other of my very close friends in the Progressive Baptist movement are making it extremely difficult, in realpolitik sensibilities.
My straight friend Russ Beene says it is a generational matter. I think Wallace biographer and Emory proff Dan Carter sees it that way as well.
So I do not see the sense in letting gay politics hijack every thing from immigrant justice issues to whether Shorter had a chance at staying Baptist to whether Texas mods can fellowship with East of the Mississippi mods.
I go to http://www.bcoc.net often if that answers any questions for you. But I would also like other churches who don't wear the gay thing on their sleeve like you do, cause again, I don't see it as comparable to King's letter from the Bham jail.
Bob Skelton took the Gainesville Red Raiders hoop boys all the way in 68 or so. That is good enough for me.
His son Rob was the only white boy on the basketball team at West Rome HS Class of 87. William Kent and Spencer Hammond got football scholarships to Alabama that year and you did not :lol: :lol: :arrow: :P
I wish Bob Skelton's church membership was some other place than West Rome, just like I wish Summerville CBF' pastor Roger Macdonald, a Republican, his father had moved his membership.
But it is home for both of them, and while I deplore the speech the punk from Eastside Marietta gave there in the heat of the charges against Mercer and Jack Harwell; Bob Skelton was present at my father's funeral, he had the main eulogy at my Grandmother Fox's funeral; my Dad went to his Dad's funeral and
Bob Skelton is my Brother in Christ Jesus.

Love you in the Lord, Joshua

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Postby Joshua Villines » Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:45 pm

Fox,

He can be a fine man and a good person and still be a fundamentalist. Remember that I count Roger Moran as my friend. However good a person Bob Skelton is, I didn't like the direction in which his theology led the Berry students who lived up there on the Chicken Farm. I also didn't like how the Chicken Farm became a college within the college with separate rules and a separate identity.

As for GLBT politics, the GLBT students didn't introduce the issue. Tom Carver did when he added a section to the Viking Code prohibiting same-sex relationships. The GLBT students and their allies were working to change a culture of institutionalized bigotry - a civil rights push if ever there was one.

Did I mention I want that place the hell off our campus?

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Re: It gets better

Postby Jonathan » Wed Sep 20, 2006 2:01 am

fox wrote:I hope the administration of Chic Fil A, at the highest levels is aware of this discussion if for no other reason than this teachable moment I am about to provide them
They can read the george will review of Tom Edsall's latest book at http://www.townhall.com/columnists/georgewill the Sept 17 column on building Red America.


If there ever was a short, concise deadly blow to the silliness of the "What's Wrong with Kansas" folks, it Will's piece on Edsall. The last several lines take the cake:

Will wrote:Edsall notes that one-third of American children -- and almost 70 percent of African-American children -- are born to unmarried mothers. Then, in an astonishing passage about this phenomenon, which is the cause of most social pathologies, from crime to schools that cannot teach, he explains how Americans differ concerning what he calls ``freedom from the need to maintain the marital or procreative bond.''

``To social conservatives,'' he writes, ``these developments have signaled an irretrievable and tragic loss. Their reaction has fueled, on the right, a powerful traditionalist movement and a groundswell of support for the Republican Party. To modernists, these developments constitute, at worst, the unfortunate costs of progress, and, at best -- and this is very much the view on the political left as well as of Democratic Party loyalists -- they constitute a triumph over unconscionable obstacles to the liberation and self-realization of much of the human race.''

Looking for the real reason for the rise of ``Red America''? Read that paragraph again.


According to Edsall, things like 1/3 of all American children born out of wedlock (70% of all black children) are part of the cost of progress? That Mr. Cathy seems bent on seeing such "costs" reversed, by using his own fortune, should qualify him for a medal.
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Postby William Thornton » Wed Sep 20, 2006 8:39 am

cjoshuav wrote:He can be a fine man and a good person and still be a fundamentalist. Remember that I count Roger Moran as my friend.


How do you know Roger Moran?
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Postby BobK » Wed Sep 20, 2006 10:39 am

Fox said:
Though I have differences with Bob Skelton on several fronts, I stand with him against you for the most part.
I cannot resolve the gay matter at Berry, but I can come down with Willimon's Christian Century article of a couple years ago when he deplored the Surfeit of Sexual politics, meaning he was tired of it.
The conflation of Sexual politics with civil rights in my view has driven a false dilemma in the culture wars.

Finally, a rational and well thought out response from Fox.
Way to go Stephen! :)
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Postby Big Daddy Weaver » Wed Sep 20, 2006 2:23 pm

William Thornton wrote:
cjoshuav wrote:He can be a fine man and a good person and still be a fundamentalist. Remember that I count Roger Moran as my friend.


How do you know Roger Moran?


Mr. Thornton,

You don't remember this letter from the Rev. Villines to Roger Moran about 5 years back?

http://www.mbla.org/JVLetter.htm

No love for Roger over my way. The master of "guilt-by-association", he is. I wrote about ole Roger just the other week.
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ItWould be interesting to have

Postby fox » Wed Sep 20, 2006 2:39 pm

http://www.chic-fil-a.com join Miguel De La Torre and have a photo opp with Staton and morannishly by association the CFA empire as their former corporate attorney, the Douglasville Sunday School Teacher Perry Mcguire, come down unequivocably with Miguel deploring the Bama 3rd district US Congressman and Senator Santorum spun mendacity of http://www.ethicsdaily.com/article_detail.cfm?AID=7917
Thanks BobK. Would be interesting to see if Marney meant anything to Prentice after all and he was worthy of his Snyder Memorial membership and weighed in here. Same for Roger MacDonald, former regent of Baylor while pastor of for his day an SBC megachurch in Arlington.
Jonathan: Read Edsall's escerpt in the current New Republic. buy his book and pick up with us often in the next few months as we analyze the proper Baptist Christian prophetic witness to this mid term. I think Miguel has the high road on Richard Land, hands down.
There is something smelly, Jonathan, about your cooperative program gifts.
Finally, would be interesting for ABP and BP to do a compare/contrast of CFA's McQuire and FBC Montgomery's Troy King, current Atty Gen of Bama to see how they stand on BWA, and if or not they are card carrying endorsers of BFM 2000
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WWW

Postby fox » Wed Sep 20, 2006 2:57 pm

http://www.perrymcguire.com

Interesting that today's promo photo opp is with Cecil Staton; so I guess there is a sense in which your church purchase of Smyth and Helwys lit helps fund Perry's Campaign.
I think it incumbent of Perry to get a copy of Carl Kell's Exiled, and Randall Balmer's Thy Kingdom Come and Read his Chapter Where Have All the Baptists Gone this weekend. Invite Truett's family, especially the missionaries in Brazil to read the chapter, and compare and contrast the world view of Charles Kimball and Miquel DeLa Torre with that of Richard Land.
Let the devotees of Marney, say so :!: :!: :!: :!:
And if Marney and George Washington Truett would find Truett Cathy lacking, then by all means make way to Sunday School in Douglasville and let Perry know.
Where is the Center for Baptist Studies at Mercer in all this :?: :?: :?:
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And here

Postby fox » Wed Sep 20, 2006 3:14 pm

just in time for the discussion contexted by George Will and Tom Edsall, with specific reference for the Atty Gen races in Georgia and Alabama is Richard Land endorsement by FRank Page, who endorsed the Cooperative Program dollars that support Richard Land.
Can anyone get Gary Fenton and Jay Wolfe to explain anywhere how in good conscience they can promote this crap, not to mention Rick Lance who resists signing BFM 2000 as does Bob Terry resist it; yet they continue to promote Cooperative Program and an agency that raped the legacy of John Leland when it gave this year's award in Leland's Name to President Bush.
Why not name Karl Rove, the Baptist Marney/George Truett statesman of the year. Why the Hell Not? You could count on Rick Lance and Bob Terry to do the banner raising banquet presentation God Bless America Prayer; with Peace Committee's Charles Pickering making the presentation
http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=24006

Bruce Gourley, what do you think of President Bush getting the Leland Award, and where is your and Buddy Shurden's oped piece in the Macon Telegraph about Staton, Land, Edsall, Will and all this.
Will you do a piece for Baptists Today for the November Issue?????
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Postby Joshua Villines » Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:28 pm

Wm,

As BDW has pointed out, that was me. In an attempt to lure conservatives in Missouri CBF there was attempting to claim that there we no liberals in the CBF and that there never had been (despite folks like Jeanette Holt and Paul Duke serving on the Coordinating Council in the early days). A lot of folks vilified Roger for simply saying "the left wing of the CBF is more liberal than most baptist churches in Missouri will be comfortable with."

As you know, I've never liked or approved of the baptist double-speak whereby many baptist pastors and scholars say one thing in private and another in public to avoid offending conservatives. It strikes me as, at best, disingenuous and at worst a betrayal of the call of the gospel. Consequently, I wrote Roger a short note saying that I didn't see anything inaccurate in his carefully worded and researched points, and that I thought he was being misrepresented. I explained that I don't like it when conserrvatives do that, and I don't like it when "moderates" do that. We became friends (and remain so, he called to congratulate me on our new house when we moved and to offer to fund some Republican yard signs for us ;) ), and I eventually offered to give him a "public" letter that he could reproduce.

Joshua
Who thinks the baptist political landscape would be very different if everyone would just honestly say what they believe.
"Saying that CBF churches are more progessive than SBC ones because they support the ordination of women is like noting that one flat-earth society is more progressive than the other because it admits to the existence of gravity."
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Re: ItWould be interesting to have

Postby Jonathan » Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:38 pm

fox wrote:Jonathan: Read Edsall's escerpt in the current New Republic. buy his book and pick up with us often in the next few months as we analyze the proper Baptist Christian prophetic witness to this mid term. I think Miguel has the high road on Richard Land, hands down.
There is something smelly, Jonathan, about your cooperative program gifts.


How does Edsell's NRepub excerpt, or the rest of his book (I'm taking a risk in assuming that you've actually read the whole thing yourself) do anything to offset his comment, quoted by Will, about the cost of progress?

I'm happy that no CP funds are going to support such "progress". That would be really smelly.
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Postby Big Daddy Weaver » Wed Sep 20, 2006 6:09 pm

cjoshuav wrote:Wm,

As BDW has pointed out, that was me. In an attempt to lure conservatives in Missouri CBF there was attempting to claim that there we no liberals in the CBF and that there never had been (despite folks like Jeanette Holt and Paul Duke serving on the Coordinating Council in the early days). A lot of folks vilified Roger for simply saying "the left wing of the CBF is more liberal than most baptist churches in Missouri will be comfortable with."

As you know, I've never liked or approved of the baptist double-speak whereby many baptist pastors and scholars say one thing in private and another in public to avoid offending conservatives. It strikes me as, at best, disingenuous and at worst a betrayal of the call of the gospel. Consequently, I wrote Roger a short note saying that I didn't see anything inaccurate in his carefully worded and researched points, and that I thought he was being misrepresented. I explained that I don't like it when conserrvatives do that, and I don't like it when "moderates" do that. We became friends (and remain so, he called to congratulate me on our new house when we moved and to offer to fund some Republican yard signs for us ;) ), and I eventually offered to give him a "public" letter that he could reproduce.

Joshua
Who thinks the baptist political landscape would be very different if everyone would just honestly say what they believe.


Joshua,

If the CBF had affirmed homosexuality 10 years ago, what would the CBF look like now? Healthy or Barely Breathing?

I'm not suggesting that certain Baptists pastors/scholars have notcommitted "double-speak" (your words). However, many pastors/scholars have done a dang good job of steering clear of the subject in public and in private (yes in private too, trust me I know and its frustrating). Others do not affirm and never have.

Why do you think these pastors/scholars haven't been outspoken on the issue of homosexuality?
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Postby Joshua Villines » Wed Sep 20, 2006 6:25 pm

BDW,

I have no idea what the CBF would look like if it had taken a stand on anything at all, much less homosexuality. Maybe it would look like an embodiment of the gospel, but we'll probably never know.

On the issue of homosexuality (by no means the only issue where I suspect many CBF clergy and leaders are more liberal than a typical Southern Baptist in Missouri), most of the pastors and professors I know who keep their mouths shut do so because they're concerned for their jobs or concerned about losing donors.

-Joshua
"Saying that CBF churches are more progessive than SBC ones because they support the ordination of women is like noting that one flat-earth society is more progressive than the other because it admits to the existence of gravity."
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Joshua Villines
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