Baptist Universalism

[Rvaughn]

In the thread "New SBC Controversy: Inerrancy and Doctrinal Conformity," Leland mentioned Universalism. I thought that might possibly make for interesting discussion. Leland wrote, "I acknowledge the Calvinist heritage of the doctrine." I had never given that much thought, but I believe he is correct. By "Universalism" I mean, and think Leland meant, that in some way Christ's death guarantees salvation for every member of the human race -- past, present, and future. Or at least that every member of the human race will ultimately be saved, however it is accomplished.

A prominent Baptist Universalist in U. S. history was (1751-1797). He was originally a Calvinist, and moved from Calvinism to Universalism. Probably most Baptists who embrace Universalism move on elsewhere, but I am aware of at least two kinds of Baptist Universalists.

1. , held by several Appalachian Primitive Baptist Associations who embraced universalism. Howard Dorgan wrote about them in In the Hands of a Happy God: The "No-Hellers" of Central Appalachia.
2. Interspersed Baptist Universalism (my terminology), held by individual Baptists who are scattered within Baptist denominations that themselves do not hold Universalism.

Are there others, and/or perhaps a better way to express number 2?

Finally, re Leland's comment about Calvinism, I see that Universalism shares with Calvinism some sort of idea of "unconditional election" and "irresistible grace" in that universal salvation is not based on human choice but God's choice. The "grace" may not be "irresistible" until after death (and there is no necessary effectual call), but ultimately it is irresistible because all individuals will be saved whether they wanted to be or not.

[John Sneed]

Let me be the first to say it … there is no biblical warrant for a belief in universalism. Christ himself spoke of the narrow and wide ways, inferring, if not stating explicitly, that more would die lost than would be found among the elect. However, this could morph into an educational conversation.

[Haruo]

Having a very difficult week here, it may be a few days before I have a chance to respond. Thanks for starting the thread, Robert, and for getting the replies started, John. I'm not a dogmatic universalist, and perhaps it would be better to identify as an optimist.

[JE Pettibone]

Ed: First let me say I am praying that what ever difficulties Hauro is facing will be relived soon.

On the topic at hand I must agree with John S., Sitting here in Walland TN ( East of Knoxville, South of I-40 West of Newport deep in Appalachia ) this discussion seems to be quite appropriate for my fist visit to these forums in several weeks. I have to confess that I have not personally made a count, however I was taught in at least three Baptist institutions that the Bible contains many more references to hell than it does to heaven.

[Tim Bonney]

Interesting topic inside or outside of the Baptist denomination. I'll keep and eye on this and may share some general thoughts about universalism. But, I have a funeral this afternoon and won't have any time till after that.

At one time I would have agreed with brother Sneed. But I do think you can find scriptures that take his position and other scriptures that hint at more people being saved than the "narrow way" text might imply. Maybe or maybe not universalism. But any argument I make will be non-calvinist. I've never been a Calvinist even when a Baptist.

[William Thornton]

Most SBCers are functional universalists.

[Dave Roberts]

[Rvaughn]

[Rvaughn]

Other than the Primitive Baptist Universalists, I am not aware of any Baptist body that espouses Universalism. I suspect there is lots of Functional Universalism scattered among the Baptists, and certainly the individual Baptist church members who quietly hold Universalism in a church that doesn't. Are any of you aware of any other Baptist bodies that hold universalism as a tenet?

I am not a Universalist (hopefully not even functionally), and probably not as much of an optimist as Leland is, but I do have a certain kind of hope that God is saving more people than either my theology or my experience seem to think he is!

The following articles from the Washington District Primitive Baptist Association demonstrate their theology and their conservatism. Their conservatism in that their Abstract of Principles were only slightly changed from its original wording to show how they interpreted matters in a universalist way, and their theology in that they did actually make a slight change.

Article 10. We believe there now is a general judgment and the punishment of the wicked is everlasting and the happiness of the righteous is eternal. [i.e., the believe the judgment and punishment are in the temporal world.]
Article 11. We believe there will be a resurrection of the dead bodies of all people when Christ shall change these vile bodies of ours like unto His most glorious body.

They believe the atonement is for all humankind, apparently that the "elect" are the true church (basically, the Primitive Baptist Universalists), that people experience their judgment & hell on earth, that there is no hell in the afterlife, and that all without exception go to heaven.

[Haruo]

[William Thornton]

Most SBCers, including clergy live as if somehow, someway, everyone will make their way to heaven. No one ever admits to this as a concrete belief, such would cost them their denominational or church job, but the phrase "functional universalism" is the standard way of lamenting lack of evangelistic fervor, etc., in the SBC. I've heard the phrase for years usually tossed out by denominational employees.

[KeithE]

[Sandy]

The passage from I Timothy that includes verses 1-4 is frequently cited in the Quaker meetings I attended, with a particular emphasis on leading the quiet, peaceable life in godliness and dignity. It goes hand in hand with Philippians 2 and the statement about "working out your own salvation with fear and trembling" and being "lights shining in the darkness." I don't think I ever really heard anything about salvation being universal, but "working out your own salvation" didn't mean working to achieve it, but to be able to live out the values of Christian living they discerned as being simplicity, peace, integrity, community, equality and stewardship. The degree to which these things were made visible in their treatment of others went beyond anything I ever experienced among Baptists.

I find it interesting that some Primitive Baptists believe in universalism. My introduction to Primitive Baptists came the summer after my freshman year in college, when I was selling books door to door in Mingo County, West Virginia, down in the southern part of the state, deep in the mountains of coal country. I sat on the porch with an elderly gentleman who told me he went to a Primitive Baptist church and I made the mistake of asking him to explain what that meant. He didn't get much into theology or doctrine, he told me that "modern" things like Sunday School classes, air conditioning, padded pews with backs and indoor plumbing were turning the church into a show and they didn't have any of that. He believed in the "Holy Bible" the KJV because if it was good enough for Paul, it was good enough for him. Fortunately, one of the books I was selling was a black, leather bound KJV stamped with "Holy Bible" on the front. They had church once a month, since they had to share a pastor with three other churches and he lamented that all the young people were gone and it was just the old folks who had stayed. Imagine that. He asked where I went to church, wanted to know what "Southern Baptist" was and told me that unless it believed like the Primitive and Old Regulars, it wasn't Christian. I don't think he was a universalist and it would be interesting to find out where the universal Primitive Baptists are and how that developed.

[Haruo]

Fear not, for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.

One of my favorite proof texts (though I don't believe in proof texts, except to ward off those proposed by others).

...we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

I don't believe individual human beings can ultimately thwart the salvific intent of the almighty God who loves them while they are still his enemies, and who is not willing that any should perish.

[KeithE]

[KeithE]

[Sandy]

[Rvaughn]

[Haruo]

My question, of course, is Do they have a hymnal? If so, I'll take one! The more shapes the merrier!

[Sandy]

[Tim Bonney]

I've yet had good time so far this week to work through this. But I believe also our understanding of "Hell" and eternal punishment causes people to lean towards universalism. The idea of someone being punished for all eternity for finite sin give many the impression that at some point that punishment will become unjust. And, our understand of God is that God is just.

[Rvaughn]

[Haruo]

[Haruo]

[Tim Bonney]