Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

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Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby Stephen Fox » Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:34 pm

With this book the last nail pretty much on the coffin.

Click on the transcript; fascinating interview

https://www.npr.org/2018/09/18/64873714 ... s-a-threat
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby Sandy » Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:11 pm

I'd say that her view of the teaching of sexual purity in the church is flawed, or distorted, or the church she belonged to approached it much differently than the vast majority of others do. I'm quite familiar with several approaches to teaching sexual purity to teenagers and pre-teens, and I've never seen anything in the materials that say the slightest thing about the whole responsibility resting on girls, because guys are sexually weak. And it is quite a leap from encouragement to dress modestly to "body shaming." The two things are not the same.

Obviously, the way the content is taught is up to those who teach it, but you can't judge the whole movement by one aberration.

I'm just going to ask, because the question here is obvious. Do you think teaching abstinence is wrong? Your moderate Baptist friends teach it, some of them use "True Love Waits," some use "The Silver Ring Thing," and other curriculum to do this. Most mainline Protestants teach it as well and some of them have publishing houses that have developed curriculum to teach it.
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby Dave Roberts » Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:50 am

The largest problem I have seen with True Love Waits is the way it handles kids who fail. They have been shamed in some churches and girls who may have become pregnant were asked to leave the group or the church. The ideal is important, but ministry to the hurting is also how we teach.
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby William Thornton » Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:34 am

That was true, Dave, prior to TLW and similar canned abstinence programs.
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby Tim Bonney » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:06 am

Dave Roberts wrote:The largest problem I have seen with True Love Waits is the way it handles kids who fail. They have been shamed in some churches and girls who may have become pregnant were asked to leave the group or the church. The ideal is important, but ministry to the hurting is also how we teach.


Agreed. And I known that William is also right that shaming young people who fail to be abstinent has been a long standing practice before true love waits.

As the father of a daughter who was always one to dress modestly, it doesn't matter how modestly a women dresses or not it is the responsibility for the young man to keep his hands off my daughter unless she has given permission for them to be there.

I'm pretty sick today this week with the "Boys will be boys" bull that is coming out of the GOP right now. It is insulting to men.
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby Dave Roberts » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:18 am

Tim Bonney wrote:
Dave Roberts wrote:The largest problem I have seen with True Love Waits is the way it handles kids who fail. They have been shamed in some churches and girls who may have become pregnant were asked to leave the group or the church. The ideal is important, but ministry to the hurting is also how we teach.


Agreed. And I known that William is also right that shaming young people who fail to be abstinent has been a long standing practice before true love waits.

As the father of a daughter who was always one to dress modestly, it doesn't matter how modestly a women dresses or not it is the responsibility for the young man to keep his hands off my daughter unless she has given permission for them to be there.

I'm pretty sick today this week with the "Boys will be boys" bull that is coming out of the GOP right now. It is insulting to men.


Two thoughts--first, I remember when I was growing up there were girls in my home church who became pregnant. Usually a quick marriage followed, but I do not remember shaming them. I remember compassion for their mistakes and sometimes parents using them as a reminder to me of what might happen if I didn't "keep my zipper up." Later, I saw more of the shaming culture in the 1970's. Of course, I grew up in a larger church that even dared to teach "sex education" in its youth curriculum.

Second, the GOP is so bent on getting Judge Kavanagh on the SCOTUS that evangelical groups are now saying, "The end justifies the means." I'm still looking for that in Jesus' teachings (or Paul or Moses).
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby Sandy » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:42 am

Timothy Bonney wrote:As the father of a daughter who was always one to dress modestly, it doesn't matter how modestly a women dresses or not it is the responsibility for the young man to keep his hands off my daughter unless she has given permission for them to be there.


Absolutely.

One of the most productive conversations I can remember between teenagers discussing this issue took place in a Bible class I taught in a Christian school years ago. We had an extended discussion about how guys were affected by the way girls dressed, and on the other side, the girls were pretty honest about some guys being clueless when it came to the signals they gave that they didn't want to be touched or kissed. I'll never forget one of the girls in the class saying that she would apply the passage in Corinthians about "never eating meat again if it caused someone to stumble" to the clothing she chose to wear. One of the guys put the idea forward that every boy in the room should think about how he'd feel if his sister's boyfriend behaved the way he did on a date.

I believe abstinence is clearly a principle gathered from scripture, and is God's intention for human sexuality. I think a programmed approach to teaching it has been prompted by the awkwardness of the subject matter, and by demand from parents who put pressure on church youth leaders to support their values and do the lion's share of the teaching. And I'm sure there are churches where there is a culture of "guilt tripping", shaming and shunning that is seen as the most effective way to teach this, or any other way of living a Christian lifestyle. It isn't realistic to expect 100% success in this area, and there should be training for youth leaders regarding what to do when there's been an inevitable fall with visible results, or when a young person comes to them for counsel after a failure. Churches and youth leaders aren't always good at that. But the flaw is not the "nail in the coffin."

Timothy Bonney wrote: I'm pretty sick today this week with the "Boys will be boys" bull that is coming out of the GOP right now. It is insulting to men.


Yes it is. And it nullifies any nasty comment they've ever made about Bill Clinton, along with making them super-hypocrites.
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby Tim Bonney » Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:29 am

Sandy wrote:
One of the most productive conversations I can remember between teenagers discussing this issue took place in a Bible class I taught in a Christian school years ago. We had an extended discussion about how guys were affected by the way girls dressed, and on the other side, the girls were pretty honest about some guys being clueless when it came to the signals they gave that they didn't want to be touched or kissed. I'll never forget one of the girls in the class saying that she would apply the passage in Corinthians about "never eating meat again if it caused someone to stumble" to the clothing she chose to wear. One of the guys put the idea forward that every boy in the room should think about how he'd feel if his sister's boyfriend behaved the way he did on a date.


Good conversations to have. Boys are as big a culprit as girls with some of the styles with low rider pants that show underwear, muscle shirts, etc. But we tend to put it on the girls to dress appropriately and don't always have similar conversations with the guys.

As to the "never eat meat passage" it has its limitations in application. Some boys would miss behave if the girl dressed like a nun. So there is a limit to the "don't make someone else stumble" passage in that we have to tell boys and men that no matter what is put in front of them they are responsible for their own behavior.

We have to get to a place where we realize that how someone dresses is neither an invitation nor permission for misbehavior.
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby Tim Bonney » Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:32 am

Dave Roberts wrote:Second, the GOP is so bent on getting Judge Kavanagh on the SCOTUS that evangelical groups are now saying, "The end justifies the means." I'm still looking for that in Jesus' teachings (or Paul or Moses).


Exactly. It will be a cold day in h*ll before I ever take concern about moral behavior coming out of the GOP seriously. They appear to only care about it when it suits them.
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby Haruo » Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:01 pm

Tim Bonney wrote:I'm pretty sick today this week with the "Boys will be boys" bull that is coming out of the GOP right now. It is insulting to men.

Me too. I got so mad I posted on Facebook this morning,
MAGA, back to when "He said She said" meant the man was more credible, and "Boys will be boys" sounded so much whiter than "Boys will be rapists." Eeek.
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby JE Pettibone » Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:50 pm

ED; What percentage of the general youth population do you guys believe ever gave the True love waits any serious thought.

My guess would be girls 27 % boys 18%
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby JE Pettibone » Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:11 pm

Tim Bonney wrote:
Dave Roberts wrote:Second, the GOP is so bent on getting Judge Kavanagh on the SCOTUS that evangelical groups are now saying, "The end justifies the means." I'm still looking for that in Jesus' teachings (or Paul or Moses).


Exactly. It will be a cold day in h*ll before I ever take concern about moral behavior coming out of the GOP seriously. They appear to only care about it when it suits them.


Ed:Tim & Dave , I have been away from Media sources, the past couple weeks, on what are either of you basing this judgement if the GOP ?

From what little I have seen or heard It seems to me that Democrats in both levitative branches have no concept of, or concern about the principal of innocent until proven guilty.
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby Haruo » Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:04 pm

JE Pettibone wrote:
Tim Bonney wrote:
Dave Roberts wrote:Second, the GOP is so bent on getting Judge Kavanagh on the SCOTUS that evangelical groups are now saying, "The end justifies the means." I'm still looking for that in Jesus' teachings (or Paul or Moses).


Exactly. It will be a cold day in h*ll before I ever take concern about moral behavior coming out of the GOP seriously. They appear to only care about it when it suits them.


Ed:Tim & Dave , I have been away from Media sources, the past couple weeks, on what are either of you basing this judgement if the GOP ?

From what little I have seen or heard It seems to me that Democrats in both levitative branches have no concept of, or concern about the principle of innocent until proven guilty.

Neither party is paying any attention to that principle except to the extent that "their boys" (and girls) may benefit by its assertion.

Basically the GOP, at least its Congressional leaders and the party members on the Judiciary Committee, has shown an unwillingness to acknowledge the (GOP-originated!) principle of having the FBI investigate charges against nominees (dating back to Hill v. Thomas). Orrin Hatch in particular pulled a verbatim switch that I heard. They are determined to keep it at "He said She said" because otherwise it will be difficult to get Kavanaugh rushed into court before the midterms, in a diametric reversal of the plays they used against Obama at the end of his term. This is independent of whether an FBI investigation would turn anything up that would force some GOP congressmen who want to be reelected to revoke their pledges to vote for him. Personally I'm more worried by his seeming support for the doctrine that a sitting President is above the law (cannot be indicted, tried or convicted, except in impeachment proceedings) than I am by what he might do to Roe v. Wade. In either event, the GOP leadership does seem bent on not getting to the bottom of this stuff.
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby Dave Roberts » Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:19 am

JE Pettibone wrote:
Tim Bonney wrote:
Dave Roberts wrote:Second, the GOP is so bent on getting Judge Kavanagh on the SCOTUS that evangelical groups are now saying, "The end justifies the means." I'm still looking for that in Jesus' teachings (or Paul or Moses).


Exactly. It will be a cold day in h*ll before I ever take concern about moral behavior coming out of the GOP seriously. They appear to only care about it when it suits them.


Ed:Tim & Dave , I have been away from Media sources, the past couple weeks, on what are either of you basing this judgement if the GOP ?

From what little I have seen or heard It seems to me that Democrats in both levitative branches have no concept of, or concern about the principal of innocent until proven guilty.


I agree that this has become politicized beyond measure. The idea that they will hear an accuser and a judicial candidate on Thursday and rush to judgment on Friday means that innocence and guilt have nothing to do with it. It is all about a rush to get a nominee before they lose a majority to make it so. The other part of this comes from statements from folks like Franklin Graham who in essence has said that "boys will be boys" and what happened when they were teenagers doesn't matter. If true, Kavanaugh would have been placed on the Sex Offender Registry for the rest of his life. Evidence needs to be investigated and either innocence established or guilt proven "beyond a reasonable doubt." This rush to act is all about politics without principles.
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby Tim Bonney » Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:40 am

JE Pettibone wrote:
From what little I have seen or heard It seems to me that Democrats in both levitative branches have no concept of, or concern about the principal of innocent until proven guilty.


Innocent until proven guilty is what you use when someone is on trial. When someone is in the midst of a job interview reports of possible sexual misconduct should cause pause for investigation and certainly no giving of a life time appointment without being as sure as you can that the accusations are wrong.

Right now we have two women accusing of Kavanaugh of sexual misconduct. This warrants investigation. The rush to confirm right now by the GOP is completely unnecessary. Instead you have Trump bloviating about how his nominee must be in the right when he couldn't possibly know that and the GOP planning to confirm as soon as Friday before the accusers even get to speak.

It isn't the governments job to protect the nominee's reputation. It is the government's job to protect the institution of the Supreme Court from having another possible predator making judgement about its citizens and the lives of women.
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby Tim Bonney » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:13 am

Accuser number three has just come forward. The Senate Judiciary Committee needs to step back, suspend any scheduled vote and do a careful investigation. Any other lesser job the job offer would be withdrawn by now for the sake of the reputation of the institution. There are a lot of other conservative judges that could be nominated who hold similar values to Kavanaugh.
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby JE Pettibone » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:26 am

Dave Roberts wrote:
JE Pettibone wrote:
Dave Roberts wrote:Second, the GOP is so bent on getting Judge Kavanagh on the SCOTUS that evangelical groups are now saying, "The end justifies the means." I'm still looking for that in Jesus' teachings (or Paul or Moses).




Ed: Tim & Dave , I have been away from Media sources, the past couple weeks, on what are either of you basing this judgement if the GOP ?

From what little I have seen or heard It seems to me that Democrats in both levitative branches have no concept of, or concern about the principal of innocent until proven guilty.


Dave: I agree that this has become politicized beyond measure. The idea that they will hear an accuser and a judicial candidate on Thursday and rush to judgment on Friday means that innocence and guilt have nothing to do with it. It is all about a rush to get a nominee before they lose a majority to make it so. The other part of this comes from statements from folks like Franklin Graham who in essence has said that "boys will be boys" and what happened when they were teenagers doesn't matter. If true, Kavanaugh would have been placed on the Sex Offender Registry for the rest of his life. Evidence needs to be investigated and either innocence established or guilt proven "beyond a reasonable doubt." This rush to act is all about politics without principles.



ED: So Dave what about Finestein's (Sp) sitting on the accusers letter for 6 weeks and releasing it just before a vote was to be taken? And Dave, legally reasonable doubt applies to guilt only. Also you, however I have apparently have a lot more faith in "Sex Offender" registries than do I. To the best of my knowledge I am not personally acquainted with any one who is on such a registry however I have read of several cases of such being used and abused. I do not believe in a lifetime sentence for anything less than premeditated murder with eye witnesses. Also I am thoroughly persuaded that "memories" brought forth during psychiatric therapy are not always reliable.
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby Jim » Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:21 pm

I see a strong probability that the accuser will not show because she is ill and cannot appear until later, thus attempting to forestall any immediate resolution. The repubs might fall for this since they seem to lack the backbone to get the job done. The lady has already indicated that she was drunk, doesn't remember time or place or date, how she arrived at the “party,” how she got away from the meanies or how she got home. Other than that, she's perfectly credible. Other accusers will be “found,” as in the Clarence Thomas lynching (with Biden in the chair in 1991), but the current con-game has gone far enough. It's strictly a political issue and the truth is of no use, just whatever tactics can be employed.
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby Sandy » Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:56 pm

There are three accusers, two of which are being asked to appear under circumstances that the law doesn't permit in a regular court. And in spite of the time lapse and the inebriation, there are other witnesses who can corroborate all three accusers, at least to a degree that would warrant some level of investigation. If Kavanaugh gets on, he'll be in good company, since Anita Hill has long since been proved correct in her assertions about Thomas.

Jim wrote:It's strictly a political issue and the truth is of no use, just whatever tactics can be employed.


A statement that can be applied to just about everything Trump and the Republicans have done since he took office. So if you've supported all of that, then complaining about this makes you a hypocrite.
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby William Thornton » Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:19 pm

Well, we already had a sex abuser, accused rapist as POTUS, so why all the agonizing over SCOTUS?

Looking for the tweets from dems, "We believe J. Broderick."

All politics but will probably meant he death of metoo.

Probably going fishing tomorrow. The republic will survive...
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby Sandy » Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:51 am

Well, if you apply the current conservative perspective, boys will be boys and Broderick, Willey, Flowers and the others who accused Clinton were lying. That's all OK now, anyway, under the new Franklin Graham endorsed Evangelical Christian way of thinking. It's all relative.

Stephen may be right about True Love Waits being flawed. Perhaps the new program should be called "Be One of the Boys" and include practice sessions with instructions on how to take your pants off after you've gotten yourself blind drunk. Bet that increases Wednesday night attendance. I've heard kids tell other kids that their churches are becoming more "open minded" about things like this. Trump does it and gets away with it. A potential Supreme Court justice was a party boy who couldn't keep his zipper up at frat gatherings. Franklin Graham is OK with it. Why not?
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby Jim » Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:16 pm

And then, of course, there's the truism that “girls will be girls,” the local phase/craze being to appear in public as nude as possible as seen daily on the “news/talking-head” shows on which, while the men are dressed to the nines neck to toe, the gals show as much as possible – that “come hither” approach used by the ladies of the night, not to mention on college campuses whereon the gals go to frat parties to get drunk and for a little action but now are learning that their next-day accusations are not worth warm spit. The ladies have hit the mother-lode of opportunism – just accuse some guy of most anything and his goose is cooked, perception being all that matters, not facts. I'm watching the big hearing and have just witnessed the lady saying she doesn't even know who paid for her precious (and useless) polygraph. One lady acts for all the old republican men and the dems all make their apathetic speeches and scream for the FBI to get it on, something that could have been done months ago except that the accusations came well AFTER the hearing had been completed.
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby Dave Roberts » Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:31 am

Jim wrote:And then, of course, there's the truism that “girls will be girls,” the local phase/craze being to appear in public as nude as possible as seen daily on the “news/talking-head” shows on which, while the men are dressed to the nines neck to toe, the gals show as much as possible – that “come hither” approach used by the ladies of the night, not to mention on college campuses whereon the gals go to frat parties to get drunk and for a little action but now are learning that their next-day accusations are not worth warm spit. The ladies have hit the mother-lode of opportunism – just accuse some guy of most anything and his goose is cooked, perception being all that matters, not facts. I'm watching the big hearing and have just witnessed the lady saying she doesn't even know who paid for her precious (and useless) polygraph. One lady acts for all the old republican men and the dems all make their apathetic speeches and scream for the FBI to get it on, something that could have been done months ago except that the accusations came well AFTER the hearing had been completed.


You're right about one thing, Jim. The news shows do show as much leg and cleavage as they can. If in doubt, check Fox that seems to excel at this on "Fox and Friends."
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby Sandy » Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:26 am

Jim wrote:The ladies have hit the mother-lode of opportunism – just accuse some guy of most anything and his goose is cooked, perception being all that matters, not facts.


Except, of course, if it is a conservative justice who has been nominated to the Supreme Court. Then, regardless of the facts, he gets appointed by Republicans because his views are all that matters, not the facts, not that he's a sexual predator. Well, if Kavanaugh gets on the court, he and Clarence Thomas can discuss techniques when it comes to sexually assaulting women. Or they can draw up court guidelines of how to make a mockery of the court they serve on by ignoring facts. Maybe they can draw straws or flip coins to see which female clerks and secretaries they get. And they can talk about how politics trumps cold, hard evidence.
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby Jon Estes » Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:44 am

Tim Bonney wrote:
Dave Roberts wrote:The largest problem I have seen with True Love Waits is the way it handles kids who fail. They have been shamed in some churches and girls who may have become pregnant were asked to leave the group or the church. The ideal is important, but ministry to the hurting is also how we teach.


Agreed. And I known that William is also right that shaming young people who fail to be abstinent has been a long standing practice before true love waits.

As the father of a daughter who was always one to dress modestly, it doesn't matter how modestly a women dresses or not it is the responsibility for the young man to keep his hands off my daughter unless she has given permission for them to be there.

I'm pretty sick today this week with the "Boys will be boys" bull that is coming out of the GOP right now. It is insulting to men.


Can you point to a GOP senator who is taking the "Boys will be Boys" position? I see a lot of media using that term... making the accusation... and I am trying to find someone who, on the GOP side, is even inferring such.

For the record, I believe Dr. Ford was assaulted. I do not believe, with the evidence shown thus far, that anything has pointed to BK, other than Dr. Ford's accusation. He said --- She said ---- is not enough to convict. If he is guilty, he should not be appointed. If he is not... his life should not be destroyed and many on the left owe him a huge apology. I'm not holding my breath for that if no evidence comes up.
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