Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby Jon Estes » Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:20 am

Sandy wrote:
Jon Estes wrote: Is it wise to take one quote from one man (which I never heard) and build a case against a whole political party.


I don't know. Tell your extremist right wing conservative friends that and see what they say.

I am not speaking to the right wing extremist... I don't have any of those critters as friends. I am speaking to you. If you take your right to use one quote from someone and attach it to anyone else, for whatever negative reason... It makes me wonder why you find such behavior worth mimicking?. Do you agree that is such a proper way to behave? Are you going to blame your bad choices on the behavior of those you disagree with?

I tell you what... If I find any friends of mine who do what you are doing... I will call them on it.


Jon Estes wrote:Reports are now that the FBI report shows no evidence against BK.


That's interesting, since no one has been allowed to read it yet, and the White House is going to extremes to keep its contents from being revealed publicly. Given that the FBI director and several high ranking officials in the justice department are classmates of Kavanaugh, I think the report will be quite slanted. Since McConnell is bent on shoving this through the Senate, it will depend, as it always has, on how many Senators drink the koolaide, and how many believe their job is being honest and having integrity. There might be a few Republicans who will actually show a conscience, and make the orange hair move on to someone else. If not, well, McConnell seems to be quite afraid that the ballot box will remove some of his GOP scum.

My comment was from the comments coming from the WH. The right side of the Senate (in more ways than one) agree.

To jog your memory,https://www.nytimes.com/1990/03/26/us/texas-candidate-s-comment-about-rape-causes-a-furor.html

What was said in the link was wrong but it has no bearing on the BK stuff.

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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby Sandy » Fri Oct 05, 2018 8:30 am

Jon Estes wrote:What was said in the link was wrong but it has no bearing on the BK stuff.


So you've adopted relativism as your theological framework? If what was said in the link was wrong, why isn't sexually assaulting women when you are stone drunk wrong? Williams just made a dumb remark. Kavanaugh acted on it. So did Trump, and you approve of both.

All Clayton Williams did was characterize the thinking and attitude of most conservative men. And it's been made crystal clear in the Kavanaugh hearings.
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby Jon Estes » Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:30 am

Sandy wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:What was said in the link was wrong but it has no bearing on the BK stuff.


So you've adopted relativism as your theological framework? If what was said in the link was wrong, why isn't sexually assaulting women when you are stone drunk wrong?

WHo did this? I mean... who with evidence of such horrendous action did what you say?

Williams just made a dumb remark. Kavanaugh acted on it. So did Trump, and you approve of both.

Please show evidence that BK did what you accuse him of? Bearing false witness is sin, Brother.

All Clayton Williams did was characterize the thinking and attitude of most conservative men. And it's been made crystal clear in the Kavanaugh hearings.

Showing some ignorance here, Sandy.
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby Sandy » Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:28 pm

Jon Estes wrote: Please show evidence that BK did what you accuse him of? Bearing false witness is sin, Brother.


I can gather, from previous discussions, that you believe Bill Clinton was guilty of what he was accused of. There was far less evidence in those accusations, not only from Monica Lewinski, but from the other women who accused him, than what was part of the Kavanaugh accusation. The latter included three women, different times and places, and twenty corroborating witnesses, including faculty at both Georgetown Prep and Yale, who were willing to testify at the very least that Kavanaugh had a reputation for this sort of thing, and several who were able to back up all three women. None were allowed to be heard by the committee, and the FBI didn't contact any of those named by the accusers. They weren't allowed to. It was a sham investigation. But you are willing to believe the accusers about Clinton, and resist believing anything about Kavanaugh's accusers, even though they offered more corroboration than Clinton's ever did because your political perspective agrees with Trump and Kavanaugh, and doesn't with Clinton. That is the bottom line. There's no false witness there. There are accusations with proof.

But initially, the Republican reaction to Kavanaugh's accusers wasn't "he didn't." It was "well, what's so bad about that? Boys will be boys." That came from self proclaimed "evangelical" leaders and Republican senators. It wasn't that Kavanaugh was innocent, it was that he shouldnt be accused thirty-five years after the fact for doing something that just comes naturally and is part of life. Really, Republicans don't have much of a choice in the matter because their current president has a long, provable record, some of it proudly bragged about on camera, of sexually assaulting women. They've given him and his immorality and corruption a pass. So it was not really possible for them to say much about Kavanaugh.
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby Jon Estes » Sun Oct 07, 2018 8:25 pm

Sandy wrote:
Jon Estes wrote: Please show evidence that BK did what you accuse him of? Bearing false witness is sin, Brother.


I can gather, from previous discussions, that you believe Bill Clinton was guilty of what he was accused of. There was far less evidence in those accusations, not only from Monica Lewinski, but from the other women who accused him, than what was part of the Kavanaugh accusation. The latter included three women, different times and places, and twenty corroborating witnesses, including faculty at both Georgetown Prep and Yale, who were willing to testify at the very least that Kavanaugh had a reputation for this sort of thing, and several who were able to back up all three women. None were allowed to be heard by the committee, and the FBI didn't contact any of those named by the accusers. They weren't allowed to. It was a sham investigation. But you are willing to believe the accusers about Clinton, and resist believing anything about Kavanaugh's accusers, even though they offered more corroboration than Clinton's ever did because your political perspective agrees with Trump and Kavanaugh, and doesn't with Clinton. That is the bottom line. There's no false witness there. There are accusations with proof.

Here is your problem... you have no idea how I responded in the Clinton mess. I don’t remember getting into discussion about it. Yet, we know this now... Blue dress.

With BK, you are inferring that the FBI is incompetent.

So who did the FBI contact?


But initially, the Republican reaction to Kavanaugh's accusers wasn't "he didn't." It was "well, what's so bad about that? Boys will be boys." That came from self proclaimed "evangelical" leaders and Republican senators. It wasn't that Kavanaugh was innocent, it was that he shouldnt be accused thirty-five years after the fact for doing something that just comes naturally and is part of life. Really, Republicans don't have much of a choice in the matter because their current president has a long, provable record, some of it proudly bragged about on camera, of sexually assaulting women. They've given him and his immorality and corruption a pass. So it was not really possible for them to say much about Kavanaugh.

SMH. Your desired outcome did not happen. Oh well. Is been a good week.
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby KeithE » Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:45 am

Sandy wrote:
Jon Estes wrote: Please show evidence that BK did what you accuse him of? Bearing false witness is sin, Brother.


I can gather, from previous discussions, that you believe Bill Clinton was guilty of what he was accused of. There was far less evidence in those accusations, not only from Monica Lewinski, but from the other women who accused him, than what was part of the Kavanaugh accusation. The latter included three women, different times and places, and twenty corroborating witnesses, including faculty at both Georgetown Prep and Yale, who were willing to testify at the very least that Kavanaugh had a reputation for this sort of thing, and several who were able to back up all three women. None were allowed to be heard by the committee, and the FBI didn't contact any of those named by the accusers. They weren't allowed to. It was a sham investigation. But you are willing to believe the accusers about Clinton, and resist believing anything about Kavanaugh's accusers, even though they offered more corroboration than Clinton's ever did because your political perspective agrees with Trump and Kavanaugh, and doesn't with Clinton. That is the bottom line. There's no false witness there. There are accusations with proof.

But initially, the Republican reaction to Kavanaugh's accusers wasn't "he didn't." It was "well, what's so bad about that? Boys will be boys." That came from self proclaimed "evangelical" leaders and Republican senators. It wasn't that Kavanaugh was innocent, it was that he shouldnt be accused thirty-five years after the fact for doing something that just comes naturally and is part of life. Really, Republicans don't have much of a choice in the matter because their current president has a long, provable record, some of it proudly bragged about on camera, of sexually assaulting women. They've given him and his immorality and corruption a pass. So it was not really possible for them to say much about Kavanaugh.


Agree with most of what you say Sandy. But I would not say there was less material evidence of sexual misdeeds against Clinton’s misdeeds. Remember the blue dress.

Clinton’s misdeeds were all as far as I know consensual. In the case of Lewinski, it was repeated, consensual adults (albeit powerful boss encouraged). Not sure of the other ladies (Flowers, Jones).

I do not believe consensual misdeeds should be “disqualifying” for a SCOTUS candidate, or a sitting President or a Presidential candidate (and make no mistake, Trump as Presidential candidate admitted repeated “grabbing xxxxx”; that should have been “disqualifying"). I felt Clinton should have stepped down voluntarily.

It is an UTTER SHAME that Trump and the GOP leaders (Grassley, McConnell, etc.) conducted a SHAM investigation into Kavanaugh’s sexual misdeeds that did not reach any conclusion about consentiality. GOP should be hanging their heads in shame, but the political triumphalism takes precedence.
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby Dave Roberts » Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:03 am

By law in most states, a fifteen-year-old cannot be consensual. Most state laws treat that as statutory rape. Check the laws in your state.
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby Sandy » Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:02 am

KeithE wrote:I do not believe consensual misdeeds should be “disqualifying” for a SCOTUS candidate, or a sitting President or a Presidential candidate...


There are many people who hold that view, more than likely a majority of Americans do. What's become clear is that Evangelical Christians and the GOP don't have a consistent view. They claimed, with Bill Clinton, that character mattered, and that his misdeeds were disqualifying to the point of impeaching him and sending the case to the senate, where he won, mostly on partisan lines. And as you mentioned, Clinton's misdeeds were consensual. For Republicans and conservative Christians, it isn't the misdeed that matters, it is whether the person is Republican or Democrat. If they are Republican, then its "boys will be boys" and it is not disqualifying. If the person is a Democrat, then they're immoral and not qualified. And that's not a new position. They were shrill in their shrieking and lip flapping over Clinton, and hypocritically still drag him out as an example in the discussion. But they have been silent, and tacit in their approval of Newt Gingrich, who had two extra marital affairs including one on a wife that was dying from cancer, and who converted from being Southern Baptist to Catholicism (can you imagine the holy horror from evangelicals if Clinton had done that!). Nothing on Dennis Hastert, the child molesting kiddie porn promoter who was speaker of the house. No word of disapproval on either Clayton Williams or Todd Akin, though the voters overwhelmingly repudiated both of them when the Republicans wouldn't. They gather and cheer Trump's racism, his crude language, his leering at contestants in the dressing rooms of his beauty pageants, his "***** grabbing, the dozen women who have credible evidence and witnesses to his sexual assaults (some of which he has admitted) and everything else.

If you think the younger generation isn't getting the negative message this sends, think again.
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby Haruo » Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:58 pm

If you mean a 17-year-old boy having sexual intercourse with a 15-year-old girl, I think thirty years later that is not anything to get in high dudgeon about. On the other hand, lying about you did back then is an issue. At this point I don't think there's enough evidence of what went on back there to judge. I am inclined to believe Professor Ford on the subject, and that doesn't help Kavanaugh if I'm a Senator. But I am much more strong in my belief that Kavanaugh lied about his drinking, which is something that to my mind is potentially disqualifying. (Though for me the notion that a sitting President is above the criminal law of the several states is a much stronger reason to vote against him.) The alleged incident with him and Dr. Ford basically seems to come he said she said (though he didn't say anything about consensual acts with her), but I think the evidence about his excessive drinking and behavior while drunk is much stronger, including a police report as well as numerous witness statements.
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby JE Pettibone » Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:53 am

Ed: Hauro, writes "I think the evidence about his excessive drinking and behavior while drunk is much stronger, including a police report as well as numerous witness statements."

I seem to have missed any thing about a police report regarding his drinking and behavior while drunk, would you provide a source for me to look at.
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby Haruo » Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:30 pm

Here's a link to the NYTimes article on the police report. Allegedly threw ice at a patron and his friend hit somebody with a glass. A lot of other classmates have come forward with anecdotal stuff about his drinking at Yale, including his roommate, not just the woman he allegedly exposed himself to.
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby Haruo » Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:39 pm

The video titled "Still Like Beer" is worth watching in its entirety. Again, none of this is proof of anything, but it sends up some red flags, and I think it deserves a much more serious second investigation than the FBI mustered in the days between Flake's shaming in the elevator and the rush to [withhold?] judgment.
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby JE Pettibone » Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:52 am

Haruo wrote:The video titled "Still Like Beer" is worth watching in its entirety. Again, none of this is proof of anything, but it sends up some red flags, and I think it deserves a much more serious second investigation than the FBI mustered in the days between Flake's shaming in the elevator and the rush to [withhold?] judgment.


Ed: Thanks for locating that Police report. I agree that it proves nothing, but I do note it says "The report referred to the altercation, which occurred at a bar called Demery’s, as “an assault.” It did not say whether anyone was arrested, and there is no indication that charges were filed." It also describes some one having an injury by a friend of Kavanaugh's. throwing a glass. I note also the report says BK threw ice on (not at) some one else.

I would suggest that at most, such incidents are yellow flags meaning caution not STOP. Using caution can you show us anything in any of the cases over which Kavanaugh presided during his 12 years on the Federal bench that was errantly decided due to his enjoyment of beer.
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby Haruo » Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:49 pm

JE Pettibone wrote:
Haruo wrote:The video titled "Still Like Beer" is worth watching in its entirety. Again, none of this is proof of anything, but it sends up some red flags, and I think it deserves a much more serious second investigation than the FBI mustered in the days between Flake's shaming in the elevator and the rush to [withhold?] judgment.


Ed: Thanks for locating that Police report. I agree that it proves nothing, but I do note it says "The report referred to the altercation, which occurred at a bar called Demery’s, as “an assault.” It did not say whether anyone was arrested, and there is no indication that charges were filed." It also describes some one having an injury by a friend of Kavanaugh's. throwing a glass. I note also the report says BK threw ice on (not at) some one else.

I would suggest that at most, such incidents are yellow flags meaning caution not STOP. Using caution can you show us anything in any of the cases over which Kavanaugh presided during his 12 years on the Federal bench that was errantly decided due to his enjoyment of beer.

No, I haven't examined his decisions as a judge; I would be surprised if any of them were affected one way or another by his enjoyment of beer. I think if he had made any such decisions they would have come to light recently. Did you watch the video? It shows pretty clearly to me the prevarication that worries me. But it's a moot point at this stage. We'll see what he does in the SCOTUS.
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby JE Pettibone » Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:14 pm

Ed: Hauro, when you ask If I have seen the video, Yes , and I have and I watched the original broadcast. And wondered what you would think about it.
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby Haruo » Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:11 pm

Do you have a link to that "original broadcast"?
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