Hybels steps down at Willow Creek

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Hybels steps down at Willow Creek

Postby Sandy » Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:48 am

https://www.baptiststandard.com/news/fa ... isconduct/

I'm beginning to wonder if it is possible to avoid being accused of something. You can only take so many precautions without simply changing circumstances so much that you can't even carry on a conversation. Avoiding a bad situation has become a full time occupation for ministers, and for anyone who works with people, I guess.
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Re: Hybels steps down at Willow Creek

Postby Jon Estes » Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:36 pm

Sandy wrote:https://www.baptiststandard.com/news/faith-culture/hybels-resigns-willow-creek-denies-sexual-misconduct/

I'm beginning to wonder if it is possible to avoid being accused of something. You can only take so many precautions without simply changing circumstances so much that you can't even carry on a conversation. Avoiding a bad situation has become a full time occupation for ministers, and for anyone who works with people, I guess.


My opinion is that this crisis will only lead to companies not hiring women. If they are not present the accusation of sexual harassment at work will vanish. In ministry, you can't just ban women from being a part of the church but I do think less and less will be looked at as possible ministry leadership hires.
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Re: Hybels steps down at Willow Creek

Postby KeithE » Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:07 am

Jon Estes wrote:
Sandy wrote:https://www.baptiststandard.com/news/faith-culture/hybels-resigns-willow-creek-denies-sexual-misconduct/

I'm beginning to wonder if it is possible to avoid being accused of something. You can only take so many precautions without simply changing circumstances so much that you can't even carry on a conversation. Avoiding a bad situation has become a full time occupation for ministers, and for anyone who works with people, I guess.


My opinion is that this crisis will only lead to companies not hiring women. If they are not present the accusation of sexual harassment at work will vanish. In ministry, you can't just ban women from being a part of the church but I do think less and less will be looked at as possible ministry leadership hires.

Let’s keep out all those women out of leadership roles because men will sexually harass them. :brick:
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Re: Hybels steps down at Willow Creek

Postby Haruo » Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:59 am

Or because they will claim men did that, and bankrupt us.
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Re: Hybels steps down at Willow Creek

Postby Sandy » Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:48 pm

It's not about women in positions of executive leadership in the workplace. That's blaming women because they were in the same place and proximity as a male, so its their fault they got harassed. Sorry, that's not the point.

The point is that the culture has accepted the fact that "boys will be boys" and that you can't expect a man in a one on one situation with a woman not to say or do something aggressive or assertive. The whole attitude for years has been that a guy ought to be able to get away with it because he's a guy. So now there's a reactionary approach whenever someone says anything. So a pastor has to stop, think about the situation he is in and what he is about to do, and how it will look before he decideds to minister to a female parishioner.
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Re: Hybels steps down at Willow Creek

Postby JE Pettibone » Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:53 pm

Jon Estes wrote:
Sandy wrote:https://www.baptiststandard.com/news/faith-culture/hybels-resigns-willow-creek-denies-sexual-misconduct/

I'm beginning to wonder if it is possible to avoid being accused of something. You can only take so many precautions without simply changing circumstances so much that you can't even carry on a conversation. Avoiding a bad situation has become a full time occupation for ministers, and for anyone who works with people, I guess.


My opinion is that this crisis will only lead to companies not hiring women. If they are not present the accusation of sexual harassment at work will vanish. In ministry, you can't just ban women from being a part of the church but I do think less and less will be looked at as possible ministry leadership hires.


Ed: Jon I think you are out of touch with reality on this question. It would cost companies as much or more to defend such an illegal hieing policy as it does to defend against sexual harassment, and to provide boundaries training for all new employees. And since I have been outside the SBC for several years now I am not acquainted with any significant number of women in that denomination who have been or are being considered for any ministry leadership positions to the masses other than children and youth. And the last I knew they almost never ordained women in those positions.
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Re: Hybels steps down at Willow Creek

Postby Dave Roberts » Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:40 am

There is one interesting thing not present in the news articles. There is no mention of the gender of the accusers. We are assuming they are female. The articles do not indicate gender at all.
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Re: Hybels steps down at Willow Creek

Postby Tim Bonney » Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:08 am

Sandy wrote:https://www.baptiststandard.com/news/faith-culture/hybels-resigns-willow-creek-denies-sexual-misconduct/

I'm beginning to wonder if it is possible to avoid being accused of something. You can only take so many precautions without simply changing circumstances so much that you can't even carry on a conversation. Avoiding a bad situation has become a full time occupation for ministers, and for anyone who works with people, I guess.


If accounts given are correct, he didn't take all precautions. On at least one occasion he was alone with a female staff member in a hotel room. That's just not a good idea, ever.
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Re: Hybels steps down at Willow Creek

Postby Tim Bonney » Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:11 am

This kind of things is why two out of the three denominations I've served in have boundaries training for clergy to help avoid putting yourself in a situation where you are either tempted to misconduct or something looks inappropriate even if nothing happened.

The ABC/USA regions I was in required it for new ordinands. The UMC in Iowa requires it every three years for all clergy.
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Re: Hybels steps down at Willow Creek

Postby Jon Estes » Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:49 am

JE Pettibone wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:
Sandy wrote:https://www.baptiststandard.com/news/faith-culture/hybels-resigns-willow-creek-denies-sexual-misconduct/

I'm beginning to wonder if it is possible to avoid being accused of something. You can only take so many precautions without simply changing circumstances so much that you can't even carry on a conversation. Avoiding a bad situation has become a full time occupation for ministers, and for anyone who works with people, I guess.


My opinion is that this crisis will only lead to companies not hiring women. If they are not present the accusation of sexual harassment at work will vanish. In ministry, you can't just ban women from being a part of the church but I do think less and less will be looked at as possible ministry leadership hires.


Ed: Jon I think you are out of touch with reality on this question. It would cost companies as much or more to defend such an illegal hieing policy as it does to defend against sexual harassment, and to provide boundaries training for all new employees. And since I have been outside the SBC for several years now I am not acquainted with any significant number of women in that denomination who have been or are being considered for any ministry leadership positions to the masses other than children and youth. And the last I knew they almost never ordained women in those positions.

So you disagree with my opinion. I'm okay with that. We all have one. I disagree with yours.
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Re: Hybels steps down at Willow Creek

Postby Jon Estes » Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:51 am

Tim Bonney wrote:This kind of things is why two out of the three denominations I've served in have boundaries training for clergy to help avoid putting yourself in a situation where you are either tempted to misconduct or something looks inappropriate even if nothing happened.

The ABC/USA regions I was in required it for new ordinands. The UMC in Iowa requires it every three years for all clergy.


I remember Pence getting mocked for a strict adherence to such an idea.
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Re: Hybels steps down at Willow Creek

Postby Dave Roberts » Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:13 am

Jon Estes wrote:
Tim Bonney wrote:This kind of things is why two out of the three denominations I've served in have boundaries training for clergy to help avoid putting yourself in a situation where you are either tempted to misconduct or something looks inappropriate even if nothing happened.

The ABC/USA regions I was in required it for new ordinands. The UMC in Iowa requires it every three years for all clergy.


I remember Pence getting mocked for a strict adherence to such an idea.


I thought Pence's problem was not his caution but the way he waved that in front of everybody with a "Look, this will never happen to me."
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Re: Hybels steps down at Willow Creek

Postby William Thornton » Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:04 am

Dave Roberts wrote:There is one interesting thing not present in the news articles. There is no mention of the gender of the accusers. We are assuming they are female. The articles do not indicate gender at all.


They are all female. A couple have written about it, without anonymity.

Here's one.
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Re: Hybels steps down at Willow Creek

Postby Jon Estes » Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:10 am

Dave Roberts wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:
Tim Bonney wrote:This kind of things is why two out of the three denominations I've served in have boundaries training for clergy to help avoid putting yourself in a situation where you are either tempted to misconduct or something looks inappropriate even if nothing happened.

The ABC/USA regions I was in required it for new ordinands. The UMC in Iowa requires it every three years for all clergy.


I remember Pence getting mocked for a strict adherence to such an idea.


I thought Pence's problem was not his caution but the way he waved that in front of everybody with a "Look, this will never happen to me."

I do think the way you describe it is how the MSM painted it.
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Re: Hybels steps down at Willow Creek

Postby Tim Bonney » Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:58 pm

Jon Estes wrote:
I remember Pence getting mocked for a strict adherence to such an idea.


In the era of #MeToo his personal stance there might get a better reception now.
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Re: Hybels steps down at Willow Creek

Postby JE Pettibone » Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:27 pm

Jon Estes wrote:quote="Tim Bonney"]This kind of things is why two out of the three denominations I've served in have boundaries training for clergy to help avoid putting yourself in a situation where you are either tempted to misconduct or something looks inappropriate even if nothing happened.

TIm: The ABC/USA regions I was in required it for new ordinands. The UMC in Iowa requires it every three years for all clergy.


[Jon] I remember Pence getting mocked for a strict adherence to such an idea.

I thought Pence's problem was not his caution but the way he waved that in front of everybody with a "Look, this will never happen to me."
[/quote]

Ed: Jon, apparently I missed something. Wold you point me to something written about "Pence getting mocked for a strict adherence to such an idea". And who was it that mocked him? Also what did he wave in front of everybody with a "Look, this will never happen to me."
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Re: Hybels steps down at Willow Creek

Postby Sandy » Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:52 pm

Here's the story in the Chicago Tribune
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/loca ... story.html

And from the Sun-Times
https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/willo ... legations/

There's a little contrast in the way the secular papers handled this compared to the Wartburg Watch. He denies, and the elders hired a law firm to conduct an investigation, which apparently turned up nothing. On the other hand, the accusations are similar, and from credible individuals. It boils down to their word against his, really. That being the case, he steps down from everything. Either way, the church becomes the loser, because there will be people who don't trust the elder's investigation, and those who are upset that there was even an investigation.

I think back on how things have changed. But I can't ever recall a time when it would have been appropriate to have someone of the opposite gender in your hotel room for any reason, or to ride together to a meeting, or to be alone together in an office or in the church building.
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Re: Hybels steps down at Willow Creek

Postby Jon Estes » Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:21 am

JE Pettibone wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:quote="Tim Bonney"]This kind of things is why two out of the three denominations I've served in have boundaries training for clergy to help avoid putting yourself in a situation where you are either tempted to misconduct or something looks inappropriate even if nothing happened.

TIm: The ABC/USA regions I was in required it for new ordinands. The UMC in Iowa requires it every three years for all clergy.


[Jon] I remember Pence getting mocked for a strict adherence to such an idea.

I thought Pence's problem was not his caution but the way he waved that in front of everybody with a "Look, this will never happen to me."


Ed: Jon, apparently I missed something. Wold you point me to something written about "Pence getting mocked for a strict adherence to such an idea". And who was it that mocked him?

check these youtube links...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UD3Odp_HABw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92HllR1EEOk


Also what did he wave in front of everybody with a "Look, this will never happen to me."


These are not my words.[/quote]
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Re: Hybels steps down at Willow Creek

Postby Haruo » Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:25 am

Jon Estes wrote:
Sandy wrote:https://www.baptiststandard.com/news/faith-culture/hybels-resigns-willow-creek-denies-sexual-misconduct/

I'm beginning to wonder if it is possible to avoid being accused of something. You can only take so many precautions without simply changing circumstances so much that you can't even carry on a conversation. Avoiding a bad situation has become a full time occupation for ministers, and for anyone who works with people, I guess.


My opinion is that this crisis will only lead to companies not hiring women. If they are not present the accusation of sexual harassment at work will vanish. In ministry, you can't just ban women from being a part of the church but I do think less and less will be looked at as possible ministry leadership hires.

Men abuse men, too. And men falsely accuse men of abuse, too. Excluding women doesn't make the problem vanish, just changes its orientation.
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Re: Hybels steps down at Willow Creek

Postby Tim Bonney » Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:13 pm

Haruo wrote:
Men abuse men, too. And men falsely accuse men of abuse, too. Excluding women doesn't make the problem vanish, just changes its orientation.


Right. Have all male clergy hasn't prevented Roman Catholics from having abuse.
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Re: Hybels steps down at Willow Creek

Postby Sandy » Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:02 pm

Reading the accounts of a couple of those who made accusations, it doesn't seem there's a motivation to deliberately lie. They were part of the church's ministry staff. Does being the founding pastor of a multi-campus megachurch create a sense of invincibility? The situations created discomfort, and were awkward. Apparently, from the perspective of the church's elders, they didn't warrant any further action. But keeping in mind that this is a megachurch founded by the pastor, and the elders are most likely hand picked and decidedly loyal, would they be inclined to be tougher?
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Re: Hybels steps down at Willow Creek

Postby Tim Bonney » Tue Apr 17, 2018 6:28 pm

Sandy wrote:Reading the accounts of a couple of those who made accusations, it doesn't seem there's a motivation to deliberately lie. They were part of the church's ministry staff. Does being the founding pastor of a multi-campus megachurch create a sense of invincibility? The situations created discomfort, and were awkward. Apparently, from the perspective of the church's elders, they didn't warrant any further action. But keeping in mind that this is a megachurch founded by the pastor, and the elders are most likely hand picked and decidedly loyal, would they be inclined to be tougher?


That's why an internal investigation just won't do.

UM Congregations have a policy in each congregation called a Safe Sanctuary Policy which are the rules that church adopts to protect people, adults and children, from inappropriate behavior. One of my previous congregations had in the plan that if there was an accusation there would be an internal investigation. I got them to change that when I got there because there is no way an internal investigation looks legitimate. There are too many reasons to want to make the situation look better, protect the pastor, protect a leader, whatever. So we changed the policy to state that our District Superintendent and the appropriate authorities would be contacted for an investigation. (In the case of child abuse for example, the police.)
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Re: Hybels steps down at Willow Creek

Postby Rvaughn » Thu Apr 19, 2018 2:54 pm

Tim Bonney wrote:That's why an internal investigation just won't do.
I don't know anything other than what I read at the various links from the article linked here, but Hybels's statement refers to an outside, independent investigation. Seems that would refer to someone outside and not connected to the church.
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Re: Hybels steps down at Willow Creek

Postby Sandy » Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:28 pm

Rvaughn wrote:
Tim Bonney wrote:That's why an internal investigation just won't do.
I don't know anything other than what I read at the various links from the article linked here, but Hybels's statement refers to an outside, independent investigation. Seems that would refer to someone outside and not connected to the church.


From the Tribune's story:

Elders of the church — appointed members who oversee Willow Creek’s administration and pastor — had conducted the three reviews after claims about Hybels came to their attention more than four years ago.

Pushing for an independent investigation were three former teaching pastors — one with an allegation of her own — and the wife of a longtime president of the Willow Creek Association.
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Re: Hybels steps down at Willow Creek

Postby Rvaughn » Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:11 pm

Sandy wrote:Elders of the church — appointed members who oversee Willow Creek’s administration and pastor — had conducted the three reviews after claims about Hybels came to their attention more than four years ago.
I wouldn't call that an "outside, independent investigation," but perhaps Hybels does. That wording is in the April 10 Willow Creek statement, written by Bill Hybels.
https://www.willowcreek.org/en/willow-creek-announcement
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