Liberty U Gone Berserk

Open discussion on general Baptist-related topics of interest to Baptists around the world.

Moderator: Dave Roberts

Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby Jon Estes » Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:03 am

WOW -

The idiocy of the adjunct at LUO. Y'all can do better than this. Maybe those here without a PhD really have nothing to oofer in the conversation (specific to the subject being discussed).

Who here has a PhD and in what?

It also is being shown the lack of knowledge of the Adjunct program at LUO. It's easy to speak down of others when you know little about what really is required of LUO's adjuncts.

I guess it works since Liberty is an evil school (in the mind of the left) and is out to destroy churches and people and students through their educational system and miinistry placement office.

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

signed: LUO Adjunct Jon L. Estes
Living in Dubai for that which I was purposed
User avatar
Jon Estes
 
Posts: 607
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 3:14 am

Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby KeithE » Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:20 am

What do you teach, Aon ?
Informed by Data.
Driven by the SPIRIT and JESUS’s Example.
Promoting the Kingdom of GOD on Earth.
http://www.weatherly.org/discoverycenter
User avatar
KeithE
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8673
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:02 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby Jon Estes » Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:02 am

KeithE wrote:What do you teach, Aon ?


I'm not Aon but I am the instructor for EVAN 101 and THEO 104.
Living in Dubai for that which I was purposed
User avatar
Jon Estes
 
Posts: 607
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 3:14 am

Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby Dave Roberts » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:05 am

Jon, I am very aware of the plusses and minuses of the adjunct system. My wife worked for over 10 years in the VA Community College System in both administration and as an adjunct. The quality of courses depends on the commitment of the adjunct and the willingness to interact regularly with the students. The reality is that many institutions now load adjuncts with an impossible course load to keep the cost down. For most adjuncts, the amount of money earned is not in proportion to the levels of responsibility. We address LU because of its sheer size in the off-campus education work, but it is not alone. The whole arena is evolving, and I have seen in graduates of institutions for divinity training that did all their work online, a general lack of collaborative skills and people concerns necessary to work in churches. How would you feel if your surgeon was trained online? Your lawyer?
"God will never be less than He is and does not need to be more" (John Koessler)

My blog: http://emporiadave.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Dave Roberts
Site Admin
 
Posts: 7164
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 1:01 pm
Location: Southside, VA

Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby Sandy » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:48 am

I don't have a Ph.D, but I do have two masters' degrees, and have taught as an adjunct. The schools I've taught for had pretty high standards, in terms of course objectives and expected student outcomes. The level of monitoring and supervision was high, and there wasn't much "wiggle room" when it came to course content. The syllabus and lesson plan outlines for each session had to be complete before the dean approved the course to be offered.

I see online courses as a means of delivering coursework that helps fill in gaps in places where it is more practical, but as far as I'm concerned, the jury is still out on how effective it is when it comes to full degree programs. I've interviewed a few candidates for teaching positions who had online degrees, and while that is anecdotal, there was a clear difference in interview skills, and in content area knowledge and skill. None of the applicants with an online degree made a second interview. Of course, in this area, right now we are blessed with an abundance of experienced teachers in most subject areas, and that means that whenever I have an opening, I also have a pretty steady stream of applicants from some high quality schools, including some excellent Christian colleges and universities. I'm currently supervising a cohort, a little different than teaching as an adjunct. I don't think I'd enjoy teaching an online course.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 8596
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:10 pm
Location: Shores of the Great Lakes

Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby Tim Bonney » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:38 am

Jon Estes wrote:WOW -

The idiocy of the adjunct at LUO. Y'all can do better than this. Maybe those here without a PhD really have nothing to oofer in the conversation (specific to the subject being discussed).

Who here has a PhD and in what?

It also is being shown the lack of knowledge of the Adjunct program at LUO. It's easy to speak down of others when you know little about what really is required of LUO's adjuncts.

I guess it works since Liberty is an evil school (in the mind of the left) and is out to destroy churches and people and students through their educational system and miinistry placement office.

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

signed: LUO Adjunct Jon L. Estes


I think you are taking this too personally Jon. Up until last year I was an adjunct instructor at Morningside College. But, the adjunct system serves the schools bottom line better than it serves students, better than it serves full-time professors who spent years getting that PhD, and ultimately, the educational level of the faculty drops. (And yep, I have an M.Div. and not a PhD. But I respect the extra learning that happens when earning a PhD.) And, you have to admit, teaching adjunct doesn't pay well. They are using your skills for cheap.

My own daughter was offered an adjunct teaching opportunity and turned it down because she is making more money working as a church office manager than they were going to offer her to teach English adjunct. Wow!
Tim Bonney

First UMC of Indianola, Iowa - http://indfumc.org
My Blog - http://timbonney.com
User avatar
Tim Bonney
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5798
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:17 am
Location: Indianola, Iowa

Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby Haruo » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:43 am

Education in general is undervalued as a calling. Look at what is paid to elementary school teachers first of all.
Haruo (呂須•春男) = ᎭᎷᎣ = Leland Bryant Ross
Repeal the language taxLearn and use Esperanto
Fremont Baptist ChurchMy hymnblog
User avatar
Haruo
Site Admin
 
Posts: 12018
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 7:21 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby Tim Bonney » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:56 am

Haruo wrote:Education in general is undervalued as a calling. Look at what is paid to elementary school teachers first of all.


Indeed! So then, ultimately, there is going to be less and less incentive for people to earn graduate and post-graduate degrees if they can't then get a decent paying job.

My daughter has a BA in English and a BS in Sociology and decided not to pursue and MA in either because there was no money in it.
Tim Bonney

First UMC of Indianola, Iowa - http://indfumc.org
My Blog - http://timbonney.com
User avatar
Tim Bonney
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5798
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:17 am
Location: Indianola, Iowa

Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby Haruo » Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:16 am

And now that I'm retired and can theoretically afford both the time and the tuition to go back and complete my own long-stalled climb to the PhD, I've decided not to bother. I'm just not that interested in Albanian literature anymore. If I could find a university that would let me earn an interdisciplinary online PhD in Esperanto studies and hymnology, I'd serious consider it. But so far I'm drawing a blank on Google.
Haruo (呂須•春男) = ᎭᎷᎣ = Leland Bryant Ross
Repeal the language taxLearn and use Esperanto
Fremont Baptist ChurchMy hymnblog
User avatar
Haruo
Site Admin
 
Posts: 12018
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 7:21 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby KeithE » Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:36 pm

Jon Estes wrote:
KeithE wrote:What do you teach, Aon ?


I'm not Aon but I am the instructor for EVAN 101 and THEO 104.


Sorry about the typo. Do you have a PHD in these subjects? I can imagine that in these days, long range learning from the next city to half way around the world is equivalent.
Informed by Data.
Driven by the SPIRIT and JESUS’s Example.
Promoting the Kingdom of GOD on Earth.
http://www.weatherly.org/discoverycenter
User avatar
KeithE
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8673
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:02 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby Tim Bonney » Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:38 pm

I think Morningside's rule is that an adjunct without a PhD can teach 100 and 200 level courses.

One of the reasons I was teaching Christian Ethics is that the school has a history of wanting to recruit someone with pastoral experience to teach the class believing the practical experience enhances the academic experience.
Tim Bonney

First UMC of Indianola, Iowa - http://indfumc.org
My Blog - http://timbonney.com
User avatar
Tim Bonney
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5798
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:17 am
Location: Indianola, Iowa

Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby Sandy » Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:10 pm

Timothy Bonney wrote: But, the adjunct system serves the schools bottom line better than it serves students, better than it serves full-time professors who spent years getting that PhD, and ultimately, the educational level of the faculty drops. (And yep, I have an M.Div. and not a PhD. But I respect the extra learning that happens when earning a PhD.) And, you have to admit, teaching adjunct doesn't pay well. They are using your skills for cheap.


With an M.A. and an M.Ed., I have more combined course hours than a Ph.D. would have, given that the M.A. was a CE degree from seminary, and required 68 hours to complete. The M.Ed. is now 12 hours shorter than it was when I took it in the 80's. And you're right about the money. I always taught at night, one time a week, three hours at a pop. It's just as much work getting prepared, the class was always a mix of day students who couldn't fit it in their schedule, and those earning degrees in night school who always wound up with an adjunct.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 8596
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:10 pm
Location: Shores of the Great Lakes

Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby Tim Bonney » Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:50 pm

Sandy wrote:With an M.A. and an M.Ed., I have more combined course hours than a Ph.D. would have, given that the M.A. was a CE degree from seminary, and required 68 hours to complete. The M.Ed. is now 12 hours shorter than it was when I took it in the 80's. And you're right about the money. I always taught at night, one time a week, three hours at a pop. It's just as much work getting prepared, the class was always a mix of day students who couldn't fit it in their schedule, and those earning degrees in night school who always wound up with an adjunct.


Mine was an early morning class 2 hours twice a week.

Given how expensive college and seminary are now, I have wondered if we should turn the MDiv. into a 2 year Masters, like most other Masters Degrees, instead of the three year degree it now is.
Tim Bonney

First UMC of Indianola, Iowa - http://indfumc.org
My Blog - http://timbonney.com
User avatar
Tim Bonney
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5798
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:17 am
Location: Indianola, Iowa

Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby Jon Estes » Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:33 am

Dave Roberts wrote:Jon, I am very aware of the plusses and minuses of the adjunct system. My wife worked for over 10 years in the VA Community College System in both administration and as an adjunct. The quality of courses depends on the commitment of the adjunct and the willingness to interact regularly with the students. The reality is that many institutions now load adjuncts with an impossible course load to keep the cost down. For most adjuncts, the amount of money earned is not in proportion to the levels of responsibility. We address LU because of its sheer size in the off-campus education work, but it is not alone. The whole arena is evolving, and I have seen in graduates of institutions for divinity training that did all their work online, a general lack of collaborative skills and people concerns necessary to work in churches. How would you feel if your surgeon was trained online? Your lawyer?


I cannot speak for the specifics of the VA community College adjunct stuff - but I can speak for the LUO and what is required of us.

The amount of money is not an issue to me and others who see it as ministry. I can see that being problematic for those in it for the funds.

It would be great if when you speak of Liberty and the adjuncts that facts of the program were given instead of opinion.

A story of one student who you think should not have been in the degree program she was in does not make your case. I think it is likely that we can find resident students on degree programs at any liberal university who doesn't have the traits you think are needed to be in the program they are in. Just mentioning the online students shows your bias and lack of willingness to address the subject fully.

My spell check and grammar check is not working so apologies for any typos.
Living in Dubai for that which I was purposed
User avatar
Jon Estes
 
Posts: 607
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 3:14 am

Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby Jon Estes » Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:37 am

Tim Bonney wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:WOW -

The idiocy of the adjunct at LUO. Y'all can do better than this. Maybe those here without a PhD really have nothing to oofer in the conversation (specific to the subject being discussed).

Who here has a PhD and in what?

It also is being shown the lack of knowledge of the Adjunct program at LUO. It's easy to speak down of others when you know little about what really is required of LUO's adjuncts.

I guess it works since Liberty is an evil school (in the mind of the left) and is out to destroy churches and people and students through their educational system and miinistry placement office.

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

signed: LUO Adjunct Jon L. Estes


I think you are taking this too personally Jon. Up until last year I was an adjunct instructor at Morningside College. But, the adjunct system serves the schools bottom line better than it serves students, better than it serves full-time professors who spent years getting that PhD, and ultimately, the educational level of the faculty drops. (And yep, I have an M.Div. and not a PhD. But I respect the extra learning that happens when earning a PhD.) And, you have to admit, teaching adjunct doesn't pay well. They are using your skills for cheap.

My own daughter was offered an adjunct teaching opportunity and turned it down because she is making more money working as a church office manager than they were going to offer her to teach English adjunct. Wow!


I don't think so. If you are aware of specific short comings of adjunct programs, speak to them and not with such a wide brush. Your experience may have been a bummer and your daughter may have had concern about the amount offered... My experience has been a blessing and the funds I receive are very fair.
Living in Dubai for that which I was purposed
User avatar
Jon Estes
 
Posts: 607
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 3:14 am

Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby Jon Estes » Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:39 am

KeithE wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:
KeithE wrote:What do you teach, Aon ?


I'm not Aon but I am the instructor for EVAN 101 and THEO 104.


Sorry about the typo. Do you have a PHD in these subjects? I can imagine that in these days, long range learning from the next city to half way around the world is equivalent.


No - hoping to begin that journey soon through UNISA. They offer a ThD in Missiology.

Me living in Dubai doesn't hamper my contact with my students.
Living in Dubai for that which I was purposed
User avatar
Jon Estes
 
Posts: 607
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 3:14 am

Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby JE Pettibone » Fri Apr 27, 2018 8:30 am

https://www.searchencrypt.com/search?eq ... Y4NH25m9J1

Perhaps this will add some what to the discussion of adjuncts.
JE Pettibone
 
Posts: 463
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:48 am

Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby Haruo » Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:35 am

That link has already expired, Ed. You need to link to the actual item, not to your search results.
Haruo (呂須•春男) = ᎭᎷᎣ = Leland Bryant Ross
Repeal the language taxLearn and use Esperanto
Fremont Baptist ChurchMy hymnblog
User avatar
Haruo
Site Admin
 
Posts: 12018
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 7:21 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby Tim Bonney » Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:50 am

Jon Estes wrote:
I don't think so. If you are aware of specific short comings of adjunct programs, speak to them and not with such a wide brush. Your experience may have been a bummer and your daughter may have had concern about the amount offered... My experience has been a blessing and the funds I receive are very fair.


My experience wasn't a bummer. But the pay would have been a bummer if I was expecting to live off of what I could make as adjunct. I was teaching for the enjoyment of teaching and because of my relationship with the college as a Methodist pastor next door neighbor to the school.

I thought I was speaking specifically. I'll try to be more clear.

I know of no private college in Iowa or state school in Iowa that pays adjuncts well enough to make it a good living on its own, which is why most adjuncts do something else full-time. I note that you aren't living solely off of being an adjunct faculty member.

My information comes from working at Morningside College, my daughter's former work at Iowa State U and my information as a trustee of Simpson College. The pay just isn't commiserate with the education level. If I talked hours, I make a lot more money an hour pastoring than I would if I could adjunct full-time. And as pastors don't make big bucks, that is saying something about the system.

I'm not meaning that as a critique of any particular school or your school, but where the whole system of education has gone in the US. Schools are doing the best they can in a world that doesn't value education and so they can't pay people with advanced degrees well.

We have a lot of people teaching at colleges who can't make a living doing that. That is a problem for our educational system.

Jon, without knowing what Liberty pays, do you think you could live comfortably if the only thing you did for income was adjunct teaching at Liberty? I sure couldn't do that at any of the schools I've attended or been affiliated with.
Tim Bonney

First UMC of Indianola, Iowa - http://indfumc.org
My Blog - http://timbonney.com
User avatar
Tim Bonney
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5798
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:17 am
Location: Indianola, Iowa

Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby Jon Estes » Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:49 pm

Tim Bonney wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:
I don't think so. If you are aware of specific short comings of adjunct programs, speak to them and not with such a wide brush. Your experience may have been a bummer and your daughter may have had concern about the amount offered... My experience has been a blessing and the funds I receive are very fair.


My experience wasn't a bummer. But the pay would have been a bummer if I was expecting to live off of what I could make as adjunct. I was teaching for the enjoyment of teaching and because of my relationship with the college as a Methodist pastor next door neighbor to the school.

I thought I was speaking specifically. I'll try to be more clear.

I know of no private college in Iowa or state school in Iowa that pays adjuncts well enough to make it a good living on its own, which is why most adjuncts do something else full-time. I note that you aren't living solely off of being an adjunct faculty member.

My information comes from working at Morningside College, my daughter's former work at Iowa State U and my information as a trustee of Simpson College. The pay just isn't commiserate with the education level. If I talked hours, I make a lot more money an hour pastoring than I would if I could adjunct full-time. And as pastors don't make big bucks, that is saying something about the system.

I'm not meaning that as a critique of any particular school or your school, but where the whole system of education has gone in the US. Schools are doing the best they can in a world that doesn't value education and so they can't pay people with advanced degrees well.

We have a lot of people teaching at colleges who can't make a living doing that. That is a problem for our educational system.

Jon, without knowing what Liberty pays, do you think you could live comfortably if the only thing you did for income was adjunct teaching at Liberty? I sure couldn't do that at any of the schools I've attended or been affiliated with.


I have lived off of less and been fine.
Living in Dubai for that which I was purposed
User avatar
Jon Estes
 
Posts: 607
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2014 3:14 am

Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby JE Pettibone » Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:19 pm

Haruo wrote:That link has already expired, Ed. You need to link to the actual item, not to your search results.


Ed: Haruo, let me try this:

from Forbes In 1975, 30 percent of college faculty were part-time. By 2011, 51 percent of college faculty were part-time, and another 19 percenaruo t were non–tenure track, full-time employees. In other words, 70 percent were contingent faculty, a broad classification that includes all non–tenure track faculty (NTTF), whether they work full-time or part-time.


The rapid growth in contingent faculty (often referred to as adjuncts, though other non–tenure track faculty are included in this broader classification)



It Works, guess you have to be subscribed to FORBES to get the full article. The full article claims more than 50% Of all professors in the U.S. are Adjuncts.

To the best of my knowledge I had only one adjunct professor during my academic pursuits and that was a moderate by the Name of Rev. Bill Johnson, teaching Christian Education at SBTS in 1990. Bill was the longtime Minister of Education at Crescent HIll BC, in Louisville, where many full time tenured Seminary Professors Including Wayne Ward, Roy Honeycutt and Bill Leonard where members.
JE Pettibone
 
Posts: 463
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:48 am

Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby Haruo » Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:35 pm

I can't tell where you meant to end your Forbes quote, Ed, but my guess is as follows:

JE Pettibone wrote:
Haruo wrote:That link has already expired, Ed. You need to link to the actual item, not to your search results.


Ed: Haruo, let me try this:

from Forbes In 1975, 30 percent of college faculty were part-time. By 2011, 51 percent of college faculty were part-time, and another 19 percenaruo t were non–tenure track, full-time employees. In other words, 70 percent were contingent faculty, a broad classification that includes all non–tenure track faculty (NTTF), whether they work full-time or part-time.


The rapid growth in contingent faculty (often referred to as adjuncts, though other non–tenure track faculty are included in this broader classification)



It Works, guess you have to be subscribed to FORBES to get the full article. The full article claims more than 50% Of all professors in the U.S. are Adjuncts.

To the best of my knowledge I had only one adjunct professor during my academic pursuits and that was a moderate by the Name of Rev. Bill Johnson, teaching Christian Education at SBTS in 1990. Bill was the longtime Minister of Education at Crescent HIll BC, in Louisville, where many full time tenured Seminary Professors Including Wayne Ward, Roy Honeycutt and Bill Leonard where members.


When I try your link, this is what I get now; a couple hours ago it looked similar but included a line about the link having expired...
Image
Haruo (呂須•春男) = ᎭᎷᎣ = Leland Bryant Ross
Repeal the language taxLearn and use Esperanto
Fremont Baptist ChurchMy hymnblog
User avatar
Haruo
Site Admin
 
Posts: 12018
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 7:21 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Liberty U Gone Berserk

Postby Tim Bonney » Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:34 pm

Jon Estes wrote:I have lived off of less and been fine.


Good for you. I've run the numbers. I couldn't do it. I've not lived off less since I got my first full-time church in 1991 (adjusted for inflation.) The amount would be pretty near the poverty line. That is pretty bad for someone with a Masters Degree.
Tim Bonney

First UMC of Indianola, Iowa - http://indfumc.org
My Blog - http://timbonney.com
User avatar
Tim Bonney
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5798
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:17 am
Location: Indianola, Iowa

One Underlining Principle

Postby James » Wed May 23, 2018 4:12 pm

I just read several recent threads addressing several aspects of the differences between white evangelicalism and everybody else. The thought came to me that the ethics of any branch of Christianity should give due diligence to one principle of ethics which is repeated more times (52) than any other. It usually goes something like this, "and remember to be kind to widows, orphans and the stranger/alien who walks among you." That is social ethics in a nutshell.
James
 
Posts: 529
Joined: Sat Jul 22, 2006 1:55 pm
Location: Virginia

Previous

Return to Baptist Faith & Practice Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest